[Custom dungeon] Hellgate Tavern I [RTC] [Zed5Duke]

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RAF68
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by RAF68 »

thank you zed
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by the master »

I have been trying to download the file for 20 minutes and although it says file downloaded - it hasn't. Could some one pm it to me if it isn't too big please.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by beowuuf »

Alt link added
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PaulH
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by PaulH »

Finished in just over 3 hours. Review to follow.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by PaulH »

REVIEW:

Gameplay: 5
Great start with the tavern, and new graphics and ideas appreciated. However not really sure I got the story! No magic was interesting but I think flawed as constant injuries meant you relied on the fruit plus stamina drain was annoying. Basic hack and slash, but with some twists. Enough to keep you entertained.

Originality: 7
Sove novel concepts, new ideas, lots of new items and monsters. The level progression and layout was similar to the last few dungeons: find the key, find the dead warriors and get their weapons.

Difficulty: 5
On the easy side. Monsters while new, were quite similar and easy to kill. Some physical puzzles but nothing taxing.

Puzzles: 4
Very few - it is a dungeon for those who like to find the keys, kill the baddies and move on. That said the pressure pad puzzles were good.

Size: 7
Pretty big, quite a lot of larger levels.

Replayability: 6
I'll probably have another go as to try and understand the story more.

Craft: 7
A double edged sword. Lots of creative ideas but not always implemented well or in the right areas.

Game Ending: 8
Interesting finish in the bar! Novel ending, but as above not sure what I had achieved. Actual 'ending' is elsewhere.

Fights: 4
Was repetetive in places.

Best part:
The start and the end. Good imaginative ideas and use of graphics. Obviously a lot of work gone in here.

Worst part:
Stamina and lack of magic. Similar to last dungeons. Odd weapons and didn't understand morale.

OVERALL: 6.5
A flawed diamond. Shows a lot of promise at the start but ultimately a few areas detracted from the feel and needed more substance and variety in the actual game.

Recommended.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Zed5Duke »

I'll probably have another go as to try and understand the story more.
Am not sure what story make problem for you, personal or place, but its all explained in content, just read everything. I thought if you stuck at very begining with keybag, then maybe you also miss something other obviously. Probably you want to beat speed record and dont pay attention at details, some items, scrolls and texts, have you read
Spoiler
ratbatlog and id
?
Finished in just over 3 hours.
But you miss story, so this information is ridiculus to me.
and didn't understand morale
It dont have any use, just information about person fear/bravery, alternative for mana when use different skills instead of magic. About stamina, its obviously that peoples get tired, you probably want to play robots who cast spells, but i want to play normal humans.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Jan »

Zed, I think that you should consider very carefully what PaulH said. You don't need to answer or oppose all his suggestions and review points, these were constructive criticism and proposals, and very objective and right, if I might say. I agree with everything what PaulH said.

Zed, this was definitely one of your best, most atmospheric and innovative dungeons. I like it a lot. :P And, as was said many times above, we don't criticise you - we're just trying to make suggestions for your future designs, in hope you'll learn from it (and you have learned many things). :D
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by PaulH »

But you miss story, so this information is ridiculus to me.
No, I didn't miss, I didn't understand it as well as I wanted to. Subtle difference. As I said, I am happy to play again, reread the scrolls. Nothing to do with speed records, I played at normal pace and slept a lot and as far as I could see, found everything I needed to.
About stamina, its obviously that peoples get tired, you probably want to play robots who cast spells, but i want to play normal humans
Of course people get tired, but I went from full stamina to zero stamina in less than a minute with some fights, with no way (except fruit) to regain any mid fight. And as mentioned, I needed that for injury. Most fights (where applicable) were hit the monster for 20 seconds, retreat, sleep, repeat.

I do like fights, but don't patronise me with comments on robots and spells! I prefer cold steel to spells normally. But spell casting is more than just offense. My opinion is if you want a fighting dungeon, give the characters stamina so they can do it. As Jan said, the review was constructive critisicm and reflex ideas. Don't be so arrogant to think all your stuff is perfect with no flaws and we should all play with your methodology. DM aint about that.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by beowuuf »

To back up Paul (and I really am enjoying all the interesting items and stuff in here) I am finding my stamina dropping quite a lot in the later fights. I haven't needed to retreat, but I am finding it boring. Part of this is RTVC's fault - when you are in the yellow, even your turning speed is slow. So the game just feels slower. Some of the monsters have interesting different attack types, etc, but the feel of the game when you have low stamina is stopping me from experimenting with standing toe to toe with them, and experimenting with my own party's attack methods. I get into a slow boring turning circle, hope they die soon, sleep then move on.

I don't think you need to add too much stamina, even 10 or 15 points would make the difference between the challenge you want to give players, and the frustration good players feel at doing something routine with a frustrating penalty.

Anyway, exploring the fire area now. Need to figure out how to avoid the fireball trap while fighting the nastier critters at one bit.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Zed5Duke »

You don't need to answer or oppose all his suggestions and review points
No am just explain its not hack & slash for speed racord, and all you need to known may learn from game.

Here is story who those who lost it: You travell to Darkmoond in business and you go shortest way trough forest, which was wrong idea so you stop in encounter tavern to rest, and here you have adventure, when feel stronger after it you continue travell and game end at this point. But what is that place, its secrets i will not spoil, find yourself (am sugest examine items in last area)

About stamina, i never have problems with it, morale drop fast, but with stamina no, maybe others play like with ADHD 3x faster than me.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by beowuuf »

I take every wall and explore each area before continuing, so I am not racing around but am doing alot. Don't forget you populate the dungeon with alot of interesting items you yourself might not keep. So it is also far easier for normal players to get into the yellow when stamina starts to drop, which makes it drop even faster.

Anyway, just a thought, you put alot of good humour into your game, and sadly if a game is frustrating appreciating humour tends to be the first thing people lose appreciation for.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by PaulH »

I play swiftly for sure, but fighting usually has its own pace, especially if you are surrounded.

As Beo says, if you don't know the areas and are exploring, stamina can drop fast, and if you meet a monster, may decide to kill it quickly because you might get cornered.

Can you record with RTC so I can demonstrate a fight?
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by beowuuf »

I think you can, but for the life of me I do not recall how! I think there is a config line you can put into the file. Gambit might know, I think he used it a while back for something (like a few years ago)
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Jan »

Playback recording is described in the config.txt file of RTC in ca 65 % of the text. But I've never tried it.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
; Recording playback ;
; ;
; PLAYBACK - filename ;
; ;
; N.B. Recordings of games are made by pressing CTRL+R during a game. You can then ;
; play these back to view your game (or games played by other people) by enabling ;
; the PLAYBACK option in this file (make sure the ';' is removed from the start of ;
; the line) and specifying the name of file to view. ;
; ;
; During playback, press ESCAPE to pause or 'Q' to quit. At the end of playback ;
; normal gameplay resumes. ;
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;PLAYBACK RTCRecording_0000.rec
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by beowuuf »

Reading, who would have thought of it!
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by beowuuf »

Ok, so apparently I took 3 hours and 39 minutes for the game!

What can I say, the niggles have already been mentioned (actually, I think stamina alone), so lets talk about the cool stuff.

Equipement...actually, no, first, the decision not to use magic. The fruit was an interesting idea, and did seem to be spread around abundantly enough for play. Obviously, without magic, that let you have the four classes actually be for four styles of fighting,. I quite liked that idea! Although I never explored the unarmed fighting (aside from a few panic yells with my unarmed fighter)I had one of each type, and my ranged fihgter saw some use when the
Spoiler
hand cannon
reared its head! I loved the fact the ammo was found first, as I started to wonder why it was spread around. It was a shame the nails later were just for flavour. Unless I missed something?

Anyway, so equipment, just as I like how you bult up the AC points in clothing, so there is an educated reason to swap out clothing as you find it, I liked how the different sharp/blunt combat styles dictated the two weapon attacks, and more importantly you had fun descriptions for building up the attacks on them. So with a few blips, I was able to spot a cool weapon upgrade.

I did notice that monsters seemed to have a few different styles (fast attackers, those immune to fear, etc) so I did think there was a nice variety of critters - especially the later bosses. Nice level lay-out aroudn there, and the last boss was outlandish enough that I liked the feel.

The very end of the plot was very cool - visually it was jsut so strange after the boss fight to see that sign, and the area after - very weird, very creative, very funny, very cool. I liked that the end of the game wasn't really the end, so you could then go and just have one last look around, and enjoy the new area.

Anyway, the music for the end screen is still playing, so there you go - also a funny end to just get back on your way afterwards. A funny thing happened to you on the way to the town.

You had alot of funny items as always, though these were a whle new level or weird, cool, and fun. Really, it's a shame there isn't a way to fully use half the coins and jewlery that I found (unless I missed something), but it was satisfying to collect it nontheless.

Unlike Paul, I can't criticise key collecting puzzles because really that is the DM engine! The level design was satisfying an clever and had a nice feel, and I liked things liek the flames as blockers and that sort of atmosphere.

I'd say the only element it lacked was your usual one of a kind puzzles, but your output is so large that I have no problem with something different :)

Anyway, stamina aside I enjoyed playing this. I have no idea what was added between 1.0 and 1.1, but glad I played this version whatever that was!
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Jan »

Yeah, the
Spoiler
hand-cannon
was possibly the coolest weapon I've ever used in DM! BUM! BUM! BUM! Muhahahahaha! :twisted:

As usually, Zed included so many new and innovative items in his dungeon! I wish I had your imagination and originality, Zed! :)
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Zed5Duke »

I think one problem is in strenght, when stamina drop then person is faster overloaded and this make him slower. Other thing is in training, probably unarmed give largest bonus to stamina increase, because in fact blunt and sharp are based on previously magic, no physical skills. I played two characters and finished game with stats:

Person1: stamina 91
4 unarmed
5 range
5 blunt
6 sharp

Person2: stamina 74
3 unarmed
5 range
7 blunt
5 sharp

Also there is necklace +10 stamina, also i drop most finding items to never have yellow overload status, maybe thats why i dont have problems with it.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Jan »

Zed5Duke wrote: also i drop most finding items to never have yellow overload status, maybe thats why i dont have problems with it.
And that's exactly the problem, Zed. Because there are many many items in your dungeon, and only some of them are necessary. Of course, you know which to take and which to leave behind, but a player doesn't know it, so "for sure", I just take as many things as I can ("one from each kind"). I was even carrying a
Spoiler
cannon ball
for some time, because I didn't know what is it for, and I had a temptation to carry all the coloured chests (but happily I didn't) and many other things. And since I always play with one character only, I was permanently overloaded. Luckily, I found the
Spoiler
+10 strength necklace
, so it solved my problem.

This is definitely not a criticism, Zed, it's just a players note for you to think about it... actually, I'm starting to somehow like your "too many useless items" approach - it makes the game more "realistic" to some extent, and I really have to consider carefully carrying every single item.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Zed5Duke »

If you wish to carry more items then you need larger team, its obviously. Tavern is full of peoples to hire, so there is no problem with that.
PaulH wrote:Originality: 7
LOL! I just found that you gived me the same originality 7 in Journeyman review, where all new was only coin slot, and beside that nothing just few labirynths in DM1 graphics made in one day. And Journeyman gameplay he count as 4, so here is only +1 ? Compare these both games and you will see that

PaulH reviews value: 0

Ok you have right for them, but listening such things make me thought: "hey maybe better is made something stupid all in DM1 gfx, why waste time on anything ambitious"
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Gambit37 »

I can't defend Paul's scoring of Journeyman as I haven't played it and haven't seen the review. The only thing I will say however is that Paul's reviews are great -- he actually takes the time to say what works and what doesn't.

Zed, it seems you can't handle any form of criticism, negative OR positive. You don't seem to understand that constructive criticism is to help the designer improve. I hope that in the future you can stop taking this so personally, it's not meant in that way.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by beowuuf »

I had a four person party, but I also didn't not have multiple levels in anything - each fighter, unless I miss my guess, had only ranks in their chosen discipline. Sicec you said the two main fighter styles were the two that didn't grant smaina, then that explains that.

The problem with a four person team was that a few times I was dipping in food - I had to use up fruits to those who needed the tiny amount of sustinance as opposed to who was the most damaged, and saving those for when champions were low on health/stamina
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Gambit37 »

What's "smaina"?
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Jan »

Gambit37 wrote:What's "smaina"?
*chuckles* Stamina? :roll:

I can just agree with everything that Gambit said above, Zed.

In Journeyman, you got 7 for originality because of the coin-collecting concept that serves as the main game goal, I think.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Zed5Duke »

This is best tactic:
Team: 2 person, because both fight all time and enough to carry stuff
Skills: At begining use unarmed, when monsters are weak, this give HP and stamina
Items: Everything new is better (its balanced, so even dont need to check it), have only one blunt and sharp weapon, then exchange between team after gain level. Most of items is balast which slow you down, dont be too greed. When you have full chest then leave it in some place and run without, return for it after clean level. You can gain lot of range levels very fast using.. very original weapon
Gambit37 wrote:What's "smaina"?
Its alternative for stamina and describle how fast you can write on keyboard ;)
Gambit37 wrote:constructive criticism is to help ... improve.
Hey, thats why am tell my thoughts! Maybe he will learn something?

Journeyman was extremly boring game made in one day using only DM1 gfx, no scenery, no items, everything randomly placed with no design, cloned the same switch and keyhole in few places, no traps, no single puzzle, nothing original beside one coin slot, nothing new, not balanced. And overall difference between this sh*t and hellgate is +2,5 points LOL
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Gambit37 »

@Zed: As Jan said though, Paul probably gave "7" to the originality of Journeyman because the goal was very different from any other custom dungeon. The rest of it might have been rubbish, but it was still original. :)
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Zed5Duke »

No this dont work this way, because i could made total rubbish with only one interesting small detail, focus on it and say its brilliant. No, it must be count overall originality, in hellgate i made several brand new inventions, many from them much better from that single coin slot, and what? both games exacly the same?

Anyway what mean "difficulty" everybody have problems with my poison food and stamina and count it as something wrong, expect it to be easy, in other hand difficulty in overwiew is count as something good, it look like paranoia to me.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Jan »

Zed5Duke wrote:
Gambit37 wrote:What's "smaina"?
Its alternative for stamina and describle how fast you can write on keyboard ;)
ROFL!
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by PaulH »

Zed5Duke wrote:If you wish to carry more items then you need larger team, its obviously. Tavern is full of peoples to hire, so there is no problem with that.
PaulH wrote:Originality: 7
LOL! I just found that you gived me the same originality 7 in Journeyman review, where all new was only coin slot, and beside that nothing just few labirynths in DM1 graphics made in one day. And Journeyman gameplay he count as 4, so here is only +1 ? Compare these both games and you will see that

PaulH reviews value: 0

Ok you have right for them, but listening such things make me thought: "hey maybe better is made something stupid all in DM1 gfx, why waste time on anything ambitious"
You need to take the points in context and compare to other parts - often parts overlap. And often the yardstick changes. You have to remember I have played and completed ToC since Journeyman. On a linear scale you would have scored a lot lower. To me Hellgate was just a few labyrinths of the very same sort in your previous dungeons, but both had original parts. The graphics (though copied) were nice and were commented on elsewhere. Gambit has summed this up well. 7 and 8 for craft and ending reflect some of this, and are good scores in anybodies book. Even if you disagree, could you post back constructively, instead of arrogantly?

For journeyman:
The concept is fairly original in collecting items for a rank so is worth a good mark here
Does that not explain the relatively good mark? I added a couple of points on for that. Sorry you didn't like it.

If you don't like people reviewing your dungeons, or constructive criticism, then don't post your dungeons. You have a set mind on how people should play, react and now review what you do. Stop insulting those who post and have taken the time to play and review your work.
No, it must be count overall originality, in hellgate i made several brand new inventions, many from them much better from that single coin slot, and what? both games exacly the same?
In your opinion! Reviews are about other peoples opinions. Stuffing the dungeon full of things is not always original, especially when looking at gameplay. Certain ideas amy be weighted more depending on the nature of the reviewer.
Maybe he will learn something?
Learn how to make reviews that you like and match your review? You are missing the whole point.
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Re: [RTC] Hellgate Tavern

Post by Gambit37 »

Can everyone please play nice?

@Zed: PaulH has taken the time to play your dungeons and review them. He has given interesting and balanced reviews of your work and has given POSITIVE scores for some aspects of your dungeons, and NEGATIVE scores for other aspects of your dungeons. This is what a review is for: to offer feedback on both the good and bad parts of a custom dungeon.

PaulH has also given an overall score of 6.5 to Hellgate. That is a good score and you should be pleased with it. You don't have to agree with everything he says -- it's an opinion after all -- but if you disagree, please do so in a less aggressive way.

Right, with that in mind, please let's get back on topic.
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