[RTC] Down

[Florianm]

Download this dungeon from this Shared OneDrive (in the 'Custom Dungeons' folder)

DOWN

Build on the ashes of "Up'n'down", the name means you'll only go down (so no towers, just underworld dungeons).
It's based again upon the traditional DM graphic + DMII thicket (that's what I like).
There are lots of fights BUT not only. There are more puzzles than in Up'n'down, but I think that nothing should be really insuperable.

Your aim is to close the doors from hell. An old wizard near the beginning should explain it to you.


Hope you'll enjoy.

PS : it is really huge, even if I had to delete lots of things, because I reached the limit of 20,000 objects that makes the game crashing...

Edit : Added two gold coins at the beginning, for a little bit more light (you can buy a second torch). Added a map for Marseerc.

[PaulH]

Any tips on how to get going? I seem to be getting lost in a vasy forest, with no objects but things that grow.

[Florianm]

Artix should tell you something about that.
To find Marseerc, where you should begin, go out by the door near the magic shop, then always go straight on (tout droit) when you have to chose between two ways.

[PaulH]

It pains me to say it, but I have decided to give up on this game. I am sure the style suits some, but it is too sparse and sprawling for me, progress is just slow and painful for the way I play.

I think if you could make the forest maze more intuitive, and allow some healing near the start (and a magic torch I would be interested in playing again.

[Florianm]

It's interesting. I know it so well, that it's absolutely not challenging for me. But I understand what you mean.
Three important things :
1) You HAVE to go back many times to the beginning area. Each dungeon is hard to find, but once made, you don't have to follow the way back... if you have gor coins !!!
2) For the healing : there are ways to avoid most injuries. Of course you have to kill monsters but you can, for example, frighten them before. And if it's really necessary (for example, the injuries that slows you down), you can buy VI potion.
3) For the light... Oh no! I don't want to give magic at the beginning. But ok, I agree to give you two more gold coins at the beginning. Do what you want with it.

[PaulH]

Are there spinners in the forest?

I agree about the Vi, but they are not cheap! One injury can make it very difficult.

[the master]

I have just been playing this and have just given up. I had to spend about 10 minutes trying to kill one of the early creatures and all the time I was losing light so that when I came to get back and buy some torches I was just running in a circle in the dark and bumping into these other creatures that just surrounded me. Give the player a chance to progress a little before throwing him in the deep end. Some times I wonder if the designers of these games are actually able to do them themselves.

[Jan]

Some times I wonder if the designers of these games are actually able to do them themselves.

They do because they know where to go and what to do.

I've given up this game too, but mostly because I've got no time. I don't want to sound too negative about it - Florian certainly invested a lot of time and effort into it, there are many new ideas, some of them very cool, and it's very atmospheric. But the beginning is a little bit difficult and disorientating for me. Although I hope it improves during the progress.

[Florianm]

Of course I played it ! and so many times I know the beginning by heart... I find it so simple !! but I understand what you feel not knowing how to begin.

There's no spinners in the forest. But there are lots of thing to pick up in the forest, and you can sell them. There's also a whole new thing to grab (look carefully on the floor...).
I have changed the source into a zip, adding a "map" to find Marseerc.

Forget the glops at the beginning of Marseerc, or warcry before trying to kill them. You have to go down very quickly in order to kill the screamers. They are the most important monsters for the beginning, giving you a little food and lots of money. You have to buy very quickly gor coins (to travel easily), vi potions if you're injured (but I'm sure you can avoid most of injuries, except to obtain corbamites), zokathra (to obtain corbamites for magic, but you have to grow up first).

Never forget how you obtain the first useful torch. You can do that every time you want when you go back, and so you don't have to buy too many torches.

Don't think too much : kill the monsters very quickly, punch, punch, punch. You will grow up by doing this.

To find the other dungeons, it's easy : go to one you already know, then leave it following either left or right wall (always the same side). And you will find the next.

It's true that if you don't have time, you should not play Down. It took me more than 20 hours to finish completely (but you can play only parts).

[PaulH]

I think if you could re release it, but with a free transporter to and from each city (once you have found them) , then the game would flow much better.

Avoiding injuries can be impossible, you can get one by simply walking into a wall! I would add at least the lo and vi rune to start.

I would then replay it, as woukd be asier to get into.

[beowuuf]

I guess game balance is hard - still, Conflux was seen to have an offputting difficulty crve at the start.


Anyway, alternative link provided (the first zip file). If you tweak it, feel free to edit out the DM.com link, and make it obvious the file has changed so I can rehost it.


See, you go away for a week and two new dungeons are released! Madness!

[PaulH]

I had another go and found the Marseec - is there anything there but screamers? I have killed dozens and found nothing.

I then died from lack of water as again got lost in the woods.

I urge you to edit the start - as it stands it is nigh on impossible. Maybe open up the forest a bit, or change the scenery with some markers? How about signposts?

Went a bit further, killed ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY screamers in a row.

[BULIGO]

Just started this mod and, my, I hate the darkness in the woods. I can't find my butt with both hands and a mirror.
This DM RTC mod is a mean mofo.

-HINT: a small beginner's guide that explains the most basic features in the game would be VERY helpful. Not all of us played DM to kingdom come, you know?
BTW, 5 silver=1 gold, 5 gold=blue gem etc. Works with the factor of 5. Wasn't back then in Skullkeep the factor of 4?

A question: how do I buy spells? I mean, I do have the spells scrolls and bought the spellbook, but can't cast spells, its darkened. I tried to buy the rune scrolls with the zokathra thing, but doesnt work? Help.
EDIT: Bought 3 waterskins, so now water is not a problem anymore. Food is plentiful (Screamer slices are now poisonous? AAARRGHH!! ). Started to draw my own map of the green hell of doom. Now its a tad easier to navigate around. Screamers are boring. So i went to a safari in the axemen-land and stomped a couple. Er, the doors whacked them , that is. Equipped my frontmen with axes and helmets, sold the rest. Axemen are nasty: that pack a mean wallop and steal my weapons! Have to hunt them down to get back my stuff. Lame thieves.
Now my party has awesome weapons and do much more damage to the mobs. Blue blobs? WHAT blue blobs, haha.
Still no magic I-WANT-MAGIC!!

Is the game hard in the beginning? No, it is not, it is very confusing though, but not that hard. Just the green hell needs to be mapped, and thats it. So far, i hate the Silver Labyrinth more than the green hell. At least the forest can be farmed for some tradeable stuff.The Screamerland gives good XP. Oh well, it evens up in the end I guess.

[linflas]

you must buy the spellbook.

[Florianm]

Yes, buy the spellbook and zokathras. When you find an amalgam, put the zokathra (as in DM), be careful of the fire and take the corbamite.
With corbamites, you can buy rune scrolls.
At the beginning of Marseerc, there are some voices. You may not trust all of them (I hope you tried to touch the coins !!! the first corbamite is here).
A little clue for a bonus corbamite near the beginning, to have two ones and be able to have LO and VI (if you want so) :

Spoiler

there's a fake wall that leads to a stair for a hidden corbamite. I have to say I HATE fake walls. So there are no "free" fake walls : if there is a fake wall anywhere, 1) it can be explained by the atmosphere (in Gosht), or 2) there can be clues that leads to them (for example, you can see there is an unreachable place above Marseerc, behind two unbashable trees), or 3) you can feel to have absolutely no way to avoid a trap.

Yes, I used factor 5 for the conversion of money.

I am a little bit sceptical about the difficulties encountered in general. Yes, it is not easy.
I agreed with the light, I knew by heart the way to begin and so a single torch was not a problem for me.
Injuries are not aesthetic, they slow down the party if they are on body or legs, but it doesn't prevent to continue the game.
I think everyone has his own way to play DM, and my dungeon suits mine, of course.

The gor coins works in the two ways. Once you found a dungeon and used the way to Ternec, a way back to the dungeon appears in Ternec (near the beginning star). Yes, it's not free, but it's very cheap.

[Florianm]

Oups, I have not read very carefully.
Put the spellbook on right hand, then click with the scroll on the open book.

[PaulH]

All designers, including myself, don't realise how hard things can be - is 'easy when you know how' is a phrase that springs to mind. There is nothing to be sceptical about, every player so far is struggling to progress. I have rereleased a few versions of each of my dungeons taking onboard feedback.

Injuries are very annoying, they slow you down, and when you have to cover vast distances [as you do with the frequent trips back to the start], then I think it is something that needs addressing.

I found 1 amalgam: and had half my team blown away when I put a zokathra spell to it [which I had to go back and get]

It is a very large dungeon: as before, this does suit some players, but it puts others off. I really would cut down the size of some areas, and allow more money. The silver labyrinth is very tedious, hacking through 120 screamers in a row is not fun! Especially with no armour, no magic, and very basic weaponry.

I do like some of the concepts - but if you have an hour or two I would redesign some areas ie make the forest easier, more money, and cut down on respawning monsters. Bigger is not always better.

[linflas]

Sorry for the spell book remark, I 've read Buligo's post too quickly.
I second Paul about monsters number : even in CSB, i hated those places (antmen in Neta, water elementals in Dain).
Hard beginning can be interesting if it is justified like in Zed5Duke's dungeons but vast distances are very annoying. Trantor did something great in his 'Doom Blade' : you had to travel long distance once only.

[BULIGO]

Thanks for the replies, guys.
So, lets see if I got this right. First I must have the various spells scrolls (which I have, found a ton of them in the Heroes' chambers). Then I must buy the Spellbook (which I did). And, finally, I neded to buy the various rune scrolls, power runes and then the other runes for proper spells (like FUL for example). I can do it by er..earning Corbamite ..uh..chunks. I have yet to find some, but oh well. What was confusing to me is the fact that the Corbamite..chunk on the buyable scroll looks just like the 'unlit' zokathra... chunk. Thought I could buy scrolls with just x number of Zokathra's. Apparently not so. Oh well, would become very potent rather (too?) early in the game I guess. Torches and potions will have to do for now, it seems. Water is solved, food too, and gold is slowly trickling in my moneybox (I like to spend a LOT of time in the forest), hate the idea that a thing like that can make my day a miserable one lol.
Re the false doors: yes, I actually noticed the stairs going down behind the invincible trees. Didnt explore much the blue-blob-land yet, that is a no.2 on my to-map list hehe.
All in all, Ilike the mod so far. Had to go and fetch a pile of chequered paper again. I knew that the Legend of Grimrock's chequered sheets of paper would eventually become useful yay. BTW, great idea to scatter around those corkbulbs, mushrooms etc. I go out and farm, usually I can farm enough mushrooms to pay for the depleted torch plus a small profit to invest in my equipment. Seeing that it is possible to buy an (infinite?) number of empty flasks just makes me salivating in anticipation. Back in DM I think I collected most if not all the ~ 40 available flasks
Now, Florianm, one important thing you should do: upgrade DOWN to 'HD" like Lightbringer did with DM

EDIT: BTW, I forgot to mention that my current game of DOWN is using my old RTC config settings(forgot to change them back to normal settings), which means I am facing double numbers of mobs!! So, instead of facing a horde of Screamers in the Silver Labyrinth, I must battle TWO hordes!! Double number of bluish-blobs too
EDIT: Long distances (the huge forest) are becoming less and less annoying. My map is shaping really well. I started mapping from the magic shop. Instead of heading er..headlong to Screamerland, I took the right passage. Which, after SOME time spent mapping (and collecting herbs for trade ) I mapped the area between the magic shop and the fireplace/training place all leading to...GHINKT dungeon. Oh well, wrong dungeon (for now). Scratch one, 7 to go.Next time ill map the part that leads to Screamerland. I am having fun with mapping, again. After 20+ years! It's great!
It's not all that big if you know the way through the maze. And, I am still way too poor to use the GOR coins all te time I need to go places. Prices are fixed, equipment for trade will be upgraded in harder dungeons, so more money for me to buy new kinky stuff. As for now, walking doesnt scare me anymore.

Note: If you think this is becoming a big spoiler, say so. I could, eventually post my finished map once it is..eh..finished. I mean, it doesn't need to be posted here, just a link to the shapshot for those that (like me) get lost easily and would rather use the map instead of bashing the head on the wall or rage-quit. Just please dont post YOUR finished map until im done hehe.
RE the 'hacking 120 screamers (240 in my case) is just fine. Why? Well, after finishing DM 5 times, all that was left was levelling my toons to grandmaster in everything. And THAT involves SOME mindless screamer/rat/whatever bashing, eh? Silver Labyrinth is nothing. Keep em coming, love the XP gain. To each its own. I must be with the dumb: I enjoy more the fights than the puzzles. Barbarian mentality, I guess.
BTW: what's that story about free torches? I found only one new in the sconce, but that was it. No more appeared there?

EDIT: The way from the 'city' to Marserc is all mapped now! I can't believe I kept getting lost there! Just one marker is needed, and that right near the exit from the magic shop. You keep your right side all the time, you end up in Marserc. On the way back, keep your left side. Even easier than following Florian's map!

Starting to map the Blue-blobland now.
EDIT: Blob-land is mapped! It's amazing how many times I was stomped in there desperately looking for the dungeon entrance. Now, with the map in my hand, from the main doors to the stairs to dungeon it's 8-9 seconds at most )

Now I have to buy a couple (dozen) torches and onward, to map the Silver Labyrinth! YAY!:)
Florian, my head hurts from all those head-butts against hedges/trees/walls, but cant find the 'fake' wall to reach the other stairs in Maersec (sic!)

EDIT: Found my first 'Corbamite', which still stays out of my reach. To get it, each party member must have at least 100 hit points(or more don't know yet how much excatly). Hissa and Halk survived both with a loss of 90 HP (of 230), while Boris and Tiggy with 99 HP both died. One Corbamite as none Corbamite. Would REALLY like to get the 'bonus' one but don't know how. The 'Don't touch' thing gave me only silver coins.

[BULIGO]

Hi guys!
Everyone ditched this addon or?
Well, FINALLY i found 3 Corbamite. Now I have the healing spell and the light generating spell! No more torches yay
Florian, you are one mean level designer!
Spoiler:

Spoiler

Florian, I think the spawning of ghosts in the city this early can be a big game stopper, because everyone is struggling to get the healing and light magics, and there are at the moment simply not enough runes for the DES EW spell. So, the vorpal blade. But it is a bit expensive early in the game. Beasts and flying stuff is OK but ghosts should maybe be postponed a bit?

Maersec is a biatch to map
But I am having fun, so currently mapping lvl 5 of Maersec Everyone is healthy and well fed, backpacks full of quality food and water, the light problem is FINALLY taken care of, so, onwards to new adventures!
Spoiler:

Spoiler

I am happy that there is monster variety in Marsec. All those screamers are..er..getting old a bit.

How many Corbamites are there in the game? Enough to buy ALL runes and scrolls? Do I need to choose which spells I can have and which I cannot?
Florian, what the heck is THIS:
Spoiler:

Spoiler

Blue riddle: I have 2 legs and I am blue? I thought it was the Trolin. I've put their club in the alcove, but it doesnt open the energy door. Please help

Another question: if I want to buy ALL the 'strength' runes (LO,UM,ON,EE,PAL and MON), I would need a ton of Corbamite. One for 1st lvl 2 for 2nd etc. At one point I would not need the weaker ones anymore. Are they refundable?
Btw im stuck att the bottom of Maeersec dungeon, att the first blue riddle doors. Man those mobs there are a PAIN!!
This is soo cool, I see that the various dungeons are interconnected with items

[JCG]

I have solved the Great Clock puzzle in Kervix, but the gate to the end of the level is still closed and the stairs at the center of the clock lead nowhere. Did I miss something ?

[Florianm]

Yes, you missed something.

Spoiler

Look carefully near the stairs at the center of the clock

.

[terkio]

The outdoor rendering from DM2 is no fun. It is ugly and confusing. i just get lost and die.

[Florianm]

Yes, it is awful.
I designed it in the ugliest way I found because I don't like things to be beautiful.

[JCG]

And my reward was only a copper coin....
Huge, huge, huge.... and I killed 1043 screamers

[Seriously Unserious]

I tried your dungeon and IMO it has a lot of potential, but that dark forest is causing me problems. I keep getting lost in it and having to start over, which is getting frustrating. Something to use as trail markers, or a compass to mark directions and help map the forest would be helpful, but the compass ridiculously expensive and I need navigate the forest somehow to find enough items to be able to afford a compass or enough junk items to use as markers, but without any of those types of items I keep getting lost.

You could try either making some more trees that can be cut down for sticks, or add some sort of distinctive landmarks so all the paths don't look the same.

[JCG]

The first items I bought were the compass and the magic map, and then I took the time to draw the complete map of the outside before venturing beyond the 1st underground level of Marseerc. You'll get lost too often and you'll miss plenty of things if you don't draw the map

[Seriously Unserious]

No kidding! I actually did manage to save up enough to buy the compass and start mapping the forest, but then I got surrounded by ghosts right in the start area and I didn't have the right runes to cast a harm non-material and couldn't afford any vorpal blades, that is assuming I could have gotten to the magic shop in the first place.

@Floriam: You really need to put in some monster boundaries so the really nasty monsters are restricted to a particular area, especially non-materials, so that players aren't forced to face any monsters their party obviously isn't ready to face yet. Those ghosts showing up right at the start of the game area when I haven't even finished Markeerp yet was ridiculous and made the dungeon unplayable.

This is a shame because up until then I was starting so enjoy this dungeon. I hope you can fix this problem so I can start again without having to worry about facing any monsters that I can't beat because my party has no way of being ready for them yet.

[Florianm]

Hello
Ghosts appear when your level is high enough. If you can't have the runes, you could use yew staff.
I think you trained too much...

[Seriously Unserious]

The problems is I had to for my characters to survive extracting the corbumites, and battling through the millions and millions of screamers the in underside of mareerp also makes leveling up inevitable as well. I did forget that the yew staff has a harm non-material spell though, so thanks for the reminder of that. I'll have to see if my party can afford to buy one. Not that that would've done any good in this case though as the ghosts were blocking me from going anywhere, and I was on my way to the magic shop area when they attacked as it was and one of them was blocking, and the other was blocking my way back so I had nowhere to go but die. Basically the ghosts attacked me at the worst time and place possible, when I had nothing that could harm them and I was trapped between 2 of them in a narrow hallway.

On a side note, I am curious as to how you managed to set monster appearances to character levels. I am working on a custom dungeon of my own and keying events to character level could be useful for that adventure, or another one I do in the future.