Balancing fights against puzzles: POLL

[Gambit37]

I'm curious about what players prefer in their dungeons: Fighting or Puzzles?

[Jan]

I voted for equal balance - I think that the balance between these two elements was one of the main reasons why DM / CSB was (is) so popular. You have both real-time fights ("adrenaline" part) and complicated, sometimes even "Monkey-Island-style" puzzles ("brain" part). Concentrating on fights would create a slightly dumb Doom/Diablo shooter-killer, and concentrating on puzzles would remove most of the adrenaline and kind of "stress" or "tension" you feel when you fight unexpected enemies in dark halls. Well, of course, there are some exceptions to this (e.g. Sophia's Dark Portal).

[oh_brother]

I agree with Jan that a mixture is important (for the reasons you said). DM/CSB would not be the classics they are, and we would not be on a website devoted to them, without that blend of fighting and thinking. But personally I don't think it has to be an equal mixture. I voted for "I prefer Fighting" because I enjoy that part of the game a bit more. One of the most memorable DM levels for me is the one with all the worms and "you will regret that"...the tension was great. Also the rat level and the scorpions, very memorable. But without things like the Tomb of the Firestaff or the Grave of King Milias or the Riddle Room it would get boring very quickly.

So, in summary, I like both but prefer fighting!

[Adamo]

Fighting!!!
Fighting is also puzzle solving in some way; when you have to figure out how to easier kill a specific monster, or what to do with strong monsters that are extremally hard to kill. When you`re surrounded by different monsters, you have to choose different fighting strategies - that`s also very entertaining. Besides, complicated ideas - like solving hard or unapriopriate puzzles - makes the game boring; you killed everything that moves and walking the empty corridor trying to figure out what to put in the alcove to open a pit - a torch, or maybe it was a yellow key... and when there`s 16 alcoves... Puzzles are good, but must be designed very carefully, not to allow the player to stuck in the game, because it makes the game boring! Well, when you`re making hard puzzles, don`t forget to give the player some advices/indications.

[Bit]

I met the majority as it seems.
I'd prefer more puzzles, but I can imagine that it is really hard to design good ones - on the other hand - there must be a reason for lots of fine goodies and items.
In fact I hate it to find a lot of fine weapons when there is hardly a need for them anymore (like in the end of DM - most important one was Delta, then came nothing for a while, and then all at once with just the stone golems, the dragon and level 11 left - when all casters are able to launch level 6 fireballs...

[Zed5Duke]

Am wonder about dungeon with no fights, just puzzles. When look at begining of Tower of Champions am feel it could be possible. There is mod for Half-Life "The Trap" where is only puzzles, maybe something similar can be done in DM style.

[beowuuf]

Dark Portal is exactly this - even facing aganst monsters was a puzzle, you could not actually fight them. Play it!

Sometimes one way or the other can be good, but they have to do it well. So a hack 'n' slash can be fun, as long as normal enemies drop fast, and you need tactics to deal with hordes (not patience and strong mouse fingers), and there are good 'puzzle' mini-bosses and other enemies.

I think Dark Portal shows the way to do a heavily puzzle based game - varied puzzles, consistent logic.

Personally, for a generic dungeon I would prefer the two elements balamnced, and in turn balanced by a third element - exploration. That way, you have the combat (hopefully with tactical elements in terms of where you are fighting, or what you are fighting), then perhaps exploration of that area as a reward, then a puzzle element to solve, then either a combat or more exploration, etc.

Exploration is 'free' progress so you don't feel constantly pressured - you get the sense of earning some relief, it allows the next challenge to land heavier, and more importantly exploration is then the perfect time to subtly or explicitly bond the player to the game environment and story.

So yeah, in gneeral balance of the two, but they need balanced in term by exploration.

[Trego]

...I would prefer the two elements balanced, and in turn balanced by a third element - exploration...

I concur with Beowuuf; and through the exploration hints to puzzles and rewards are found that help for future fights.

[Zed5Duke]

When look at some games i see that fights with no puzzles are possible to be high playable, for example Diablo1. Recently am think about copy playability of diablo to DM game:
-monster can be killed by one hit
-monster always drop something
-sometime you meet boss with rare item
-monsters walk in hordes + tough leader
-chests, barrels contain extra treasure (but also trap)
-scary atmosphere (build by graphic and sound)
-collect money to buy something better (everything you find have value)
-fast leveling up and new equipment

[Lord_BoNes]

I went equal balance, as too much of a good thing is still too much... too much fighting = bad, too many complex puzzles = bad...
It's also how I'm already structuring the gameplay of my own personal dungeon

[beowuuf]

Straight fighting can be good - I've generated random dungeon in RTC with 1hp monsters - but it tired out quickly unless you vary up the components. Enemies with different powers, interesting terrain, or interesting tactics can give good respite from straight hack and slash,. The inclusion of boss monsters in normal groups also sounds a cool way to break it up.

[Duckman]

I voted fighting. I still like when there are SOME puzzles. Solely fighting especially if there are no challeges with food and water and such are boring. Puzzles however can mostly be replaced with traps.

In fights DMII offered a very interesting and truely tactical enemies, I liked them. They are sometimes such in original too. But original, and RTC even more have bit inbalanced weapons if you ask me. DMjava didn't have very much "unique opinions" weapons, they only had different melee attacks and more special weapons had magic shots, and some do poison or hit non-material. Apart from

Spoiler

the Firestaff, diamond edge, bombs and the Stormbringer

no weapons had totally unique capablites. But I liked it's balance: you did steadily more damage as you gained fighter levels, you most of the time knew your max hit and what amounts you appromixtely will damage, unlike original where you hit normally 2-40 with some weapon and suddently when you gain a level you start occasionally doing over 100. And the weapons usually were placed in fair places.

[Zed5Duke]

I tryed to make 20 levels of fight, and during testing i found its very boring, so i rebuild it to 2 big level of puzzles, then again testing and difference was huge. I think balance is key 50% fight 50% puzzle plus something else survival and adventure.

[Parallax]

DM as a system has a lot of its mechanics dedicated to fighting. No fighting and only puzzles throws out too much of the game at once, you are left with an adventure game. I have nothing against adventure games, they are a noble and useful genre, but the DM interface is not designed for doing that (you cannot see your inventory and the world at the same time, for instance). Dark Portal is a perfect illustration of how to make such an adventure game. I must confess I do not like it much.

Fights without puzzles is a hack-and-slash, a valid genre as well. What was that EOB-like game that generated a random dungeon and let you battle it with a single character? I want to say "Dungeon Hack", but I am not quite sure. It was fine, but the consensus was that it lacked depth.

Personally, I like fights as puzzles. Square-dance fighting is such a dominant strategy in DM that any single monster in a 2x2 room (or bigger) is pretty much dead, no matter its stats, unless the player needs infinite patience to kill it, but if the designer can avoid that pitfall there is a world of possibilities to explore. What is a monster's weakness? Is is a spell, is it some special weapon, or more general attack types like poison, fire, or blunt objects? Is the AI coded in such a way that getting behind the monster's back prevents it from turning around, as in Conflux? I am still waiting for a pair of monsters that close in on the party and attack when the characters are facing away but sidestep out of the way when the adventurers face them.*

In the end, I don't think the poll could have had any other result, especially since "balance" is such an ambiguous word. What is balanced for you in terms of number of encounters and intensity of fights may not be balanced for me.

*: Does not seem too hard to code. One day I will do it in DSB and publish the results. Don't hold your breath.

[Joramun]

The random DM was indeed Dungeon Hack.

I liked Dark Portal but only because it was different, complex and clever.
I agree no fights is no good. (However, in RTC, all in all, I hate fights).

The square dance is THE big problem of fights in DM. We need monsters with twists.
Conflux solves that partially, (monsters that charge head-on or poison you, that split and merge unexpectedly)
but not always in a good way (instant-death rats :'( ).
BTW, monsters in the last version of C3 do not turn their back that easily and some areas are changed quite a bit !
For example, I'm not sure the 6 points run of Antman is still doable. (In fact, I'm pretty sure it's not).

[beowuuf]

I liked Dark Portal but only because it was different, complex and clever.

I think other games would kill for an 'but only' like that!

[Sophia]

I am still waiting for a pair of monsters that close in on the party and attack when the characters are facing away but sidestep out of the way when the adventurers face them.*

*: Does not seem too hard to code. One day I will do it in DSB and publish the results. Don't hold your breath.

It's very easy to code in DSB, because all you have to do is set "swarmy = true" in the monster's entry in your objects.lua.

[Joramun]

I am still waiting for a pair of monsters that close in on the party and attack when the characters are facing away but sidestep out of the way when the adventurers face them.*

*: Does not seem too hard to code. One day I will do it in DSB and publish the results. Don't hold your breath.

It's very easy to code in DSB, because all you have to do is set "swarmy = true" in the monster's entry in your objects.lua.

I apologize in advance for the lack of usefulness of my post:

L.O.L. !

(so, I could have hold my breath.)

[Parallax]

Mmmh, that seems to be right up my coding alley indeed. Thanks Sophia.