Escape from Order's Prison: HINTS & TIPS (Spoilers)

[DM_Player]

I think you have been in the right area and missed it. Hint-

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It is being held.

The only place that I recall where something was

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being held, was the door held closed by spirits at (30,23,13).

Is this the area? I re-checked and still didn't find a key.

Or did you mean a monster should have dropped the key?

[Soaponarope]

Oh, I meant that

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a monster had it, so to make sure you killed the monsters around.

Though I believe you have been in the area, you

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may not have found the monster, as something must be done in order to make them come out.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

This sounds like

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a mummy must open a sarcophagus, but everywhere that I've seen a sarcophagus they've all been opened and the monsters killed. None dropped a key, that I saw.

[Soaponarope]

DM player,

There is a little puzzle involved. You must not have figured the puzzle out or my previous post would give away more than it seemed to. I thought perhaps you found this but avoided the monsters.

Hints-

1.

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There is writing telling you what you need to do.

2.

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It's located on level 12(13).

Solution.

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By the door where the wall text reads "knock before entering" use the wall ring as a door knocker. Then enter the room and meet some friends.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

Yes, I had been in this area. I had

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knocked on the wall where the wall text was, but just totally missed the iron ring - didn't have it mapped on the wall either.

The

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spectral lich is now dead,

on to the

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hall of order

[DM_Player]

Soap,

Thought I'd try to clean up a few questions.

1 - What is the

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bones regeneration in the crypt used for?

It doesn't seem to have any purpose that I can see. Also, there is a floor tile near here (4,13,3) that doesn't seem to be accessible, or I didn't find the correct way to open it.

2 - I was never able to open the web door at (6,8,8). It didn't seem important, as it looked like there was just some armor in the alcove, but I was wondering what I missed here.

3 - What is the

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lock a thief cage at (30,13,6) used for?

It didn't seem to come into play at all on this level.

4 - Was never able to get the

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the treasure chest in the invisible wall maze at (12,15,7).

Again, I must have missed a switch somewhere.

5 - Did I miss a rune scroll somewhere? I don't have the SAR rune, although there is

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a spell that uses it that is given at the entrance to the spectral lich's lair.

If it's on level 5(6) or 6(7) in the

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many pits area

then I wouldn't have found yet, as I've bypassed that area so far.

6 - Still haven't found a

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red gem.

Have I missed one, or is it I just haven't been to the right area yet?

7 - Is there a level below

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the gem mines level?

I've got this as level 15(16) but in your original post you indicated there are 17 levels. Just wondering if my count is off. I still have a blank for level 10(11), which I think you said is the

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ring of black flame level

, I just still haven't been able to connect anything to this level yet.

[Soaponarope]

DM player,

Several of these questions are about secrets, not needed to finish the game. I don't expect players will find all the secrets, but that they will be discovered over time as more people play.

1.

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It has no needed purpose for your party. It is just there for flavor/plot/fun. The floor tile that can only be seen with window? It's blank and used only for mechanics.

2.

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Opening this can be important, but it's not necessary as you have other options. You can do so now though.

3.

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This is a secret. It does come into play on the level, just not to solve the main challenge of getting the ra gate open.

4.

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You are right on missing a switch somewhere. There is only goodies there though, and nothing too useful for you at this point.

5.

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Yes you need the Sar rune for some useful spells. The boss you haven't faced yet has this. The spell written on the wall however is not useful.

6.

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You have been in the right area but it's not obvious. However there is another easier found one in a later area you haven't been to.

7.

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Yes there is, but layout wise the mines are the bottom floor. Level 16(17) can only be portaled to. The Hall of Order is on this level. Ring of fire level is 10(11) yes, you will only be able to connect it(and then it's still tricky) after completing the many pits area.

So I think you have

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beat 3 of the 4 generals and gone most everywhere except the pit level and finding a red gem? Passing the many pit area is probably where you should go next then. You say you bypassed it, did you find it too difficult? It requires good timing, and is my one last question mark on "will people find this too hard?" It may be a bit too arcade like for some DM players, though once you figure out what to do I think this area is quite cool.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

Yes, I've beaten

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Ifirt (easiest), stone giant (next hardest) and spectral lich (hardest of the three, had to two step him)

1 - Yes, you can see this tile using the see through walls spell. I use this spell on all walls where my maps indicate something could be. I don't know (doubt?) everyone does this, but if this spell is included in the game, or if you have a magic map in the game, I always think that it's best to have "mechanics" tiles on their own level (I use level 0) that can't be reached by a player. It just saves someone wondering about how they can reach an area that is unreachable. ToC has this same issue, and I recommended the same thing to Adamski.

2 - Ok, I'll go back and re-visit it. I haven't tried in awhile.

3 - Hmmm, I'll have to look at this again.

4 - Same. I'll have to see if I can find the switch, although if there's nothing that useful here (

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no red gem, darn

, I may skip it.

5 - Right, I haven't yet seen the

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beholder boss

. I haven't progressed that far in the

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Lord Order level - fixed the order room, unlocked the teleporter with RA keys, visited Lord Order, but can't do anything with him, connected the "Get Smart" hallway to the muncher room and that's about it.

I haven't yet really figured out what to do here.

6 - Of course I've been in alot of areas . I guess I'll wait to see if I can find the "easier" one.

7 - Good. I thought this must be the case, so my maps are still are track.

I have been in the

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many pits area on level 5(6)

but didn't really see how to progress that far. lbk's earlier post indicated that he progressed much further and your response was that he was almost at the end. I PMd him about it, and he still hasn't figured it out either. I'll go back and give it another go though.

I guess at this point, I've been on all 17 levels, but haven't completed everything on some of them, and am not yet at the end of the game.

I think I've pretty much done the important stuff on levels 0-4, 7-9 and 13-15. Still have to complete the

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many pits area

on level 5 (and what's underneath this area on level 6) and most of levels 11 & 12. I've done a fair bit on level 10, but since I haven't mapped it, I'm unsure how much I've completed

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(still need a red gem to complete the 6 alcove puzzle, which might open up something new)

. Have only been in the

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hall of order

on level 16 and haven't done that much here. I don't have all of the keys for the treasure vaults, but I've looked in each with the keys that I do have. I don't have any

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gems for the gem keyholes, other than blue money gems, which don't work. The only gem I have found so far was the orange gem from the boss oitu in the oitu den.

[Soaponarope]

DM player,

1. Yes, and it's a good idea to use the spell. I do keep mechanics tiles in unreachable,unviewable zones but occasionally there are spots where that is not possible.

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There is a lava pit above this, and this square is a teleporter transfer. All lava pits transfer to a certain spot for use of the retrieval system. In this particular case though I actually can move it, as the pit is higher up, and the trigger is here as a result of how the levels where originally layered.

The entire

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many pits area

can be done pretty early, just have to find one item which I know you have. It is one giant puzzle area made up of a lot of little puzzles. Tell me where you can't progress exactly and I'll help you through it. You too, Ibk.

Not every spot will be reachable in each game, so there likely will be some mystery even after beating it. Different characters and randomization make things a little different by design. It is possible to open

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all the vaults though, though some coins are very well hidden. The gem keyholes in the halls of order lead to a secret area. There are six types of gems in the game.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

Ok I went back and tried the

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many pits area

once again. Mapped most of levels 5(6) & 6(7) in this area. Made it past the

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giglers with the help of the stop time gear in the alcove at (26,27,5),

but haven't been able to work out the right combination of moves to get to the

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master key lock.

Every combination that I've tried ends up with the pit in front of

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this lock

still open. I think a hint is definitely needed here, as there are just too many sequences to try. Maybe some wall text or something that hints/gives the sequence. Something like you did on level 3 for the teleporter/door puzzle would be really helpful. Or maybe a scroll map could be found with all the other scrolls with the

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dead adventurer bones that indicate a grapple can be found once the lock is opened

would work well.

At first I thought the path would be the one that steps on each tile only one time, but I didn't see a way this was possible. It seems that at least 1 tile must be stepped on twice.

It looks like the initial sequence must be 51553 then either 3 or 2. From here the possible sequences multiply. It would take quite a bit of time to figure them all out and try each one.

I'm not a big fan of timing puzzles like are in this area, which is why I skipped if for so long. They're just not my cup of tea , as I really prefer to use the mouse for most things and resort to the keyboard only as a last resort. I guess others don't mind them so much.

[Soaponarope]

DM player,

I'm not really sure what your referring to. 51553?

First off, are you getting up to the spot

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with the lock in front of it, but just finding a pit directly underneath it? If so it's not an issue with the path, but because you need to pull a lever to close that pit.

The path to reach the lock is one line and doesn't step on a tile twice. There should only be a few options. I can understand if you don't like timing puzzles, like I said this area may not appeal to some, but I am kind of confused about too many sequences, as the path kind of lays out in front of you. Perhaps I really misjudged this spot as it seems Ibk was having trouble here too. My guess is that you didn't

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pull the lever at the end of the other path from the very start of the level though.

Detailed instructions on how to follow the path-

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First follow the west side as it lays out, the only other ways it also reveals are marked with Gor heads. When you get to the center 9 pit block, it will make a path north,south, and east. This is the only real choice, except for a couple places that close the center pit. You don't need to go to the center space, but if you do you can walk back west. Only the north path will make you fall down. Take the south path then go counter clockwise around the 9 block as it reveals. Then go up to the lock. Exact directions are N,W,N,N,E,S,E,E,N,N,W,W,N,N,N.

Once at the lock you do need to be quick, unlock it and quickly step off, as it is over a gor/lava pit. You may want to already be facing the direction of the lock and have key in your cursor. Falling down the other pits will only hurt you a bit, though you can actually find a way back to the start without falling in, though this is not needed.

The lever-

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The lever that closes the pit over the lock is located east of where the speedbow was. Location (22,17,5) You had to go this way to open up the path to where you are, but you may not have pulled this.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

Unlocked the master lock, but still can't advance. Invisible pit in the way.

Check your PM as well.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

I managed to navigate all of the opening and closing pits and got the

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grapple.

Used it to get to the red button at (26,27,5) which I hoped would close the pit at (31,17,5) but it didn't. So even though I have the key for the door, I can't yet get to the lock. There must still be another button somewhere that I've missed.

Have no clue whatsoever on what to do on the Lord Order level. I've activated the

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rope switch at (25,11,11) and opened the pit

but don't seem to be able to do anything else. Lord Order just kills the party and I haven't found any switches or fake walls in the area. The

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couatls that are generated at the void holes are a nuisance, but I don't see how to close the voids yet.

I haven't found anywhere yet where the

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grapple is usefull for climbing up, except in the many pit area to get the various items that are around the area.

Hopefully it's of use somewhere I haven't yet been, as it was difficult to get.

[Soaponarope]

DM player,

Good job on getting the

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grapple. There are multiple places where it must be used to complete the game. Right, the door in front of it cannot be reached with the grapple, but that will become clear in time. You didn't miss a button.

Avoid the

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Lord Order level for now. You have done what you need to do, and it's best to not travel down the get smart hall anymore unless you have to as it generates the couatls.

There was a scroll that mentioned that the

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entrance to the beholder's lair is well hidden among the many pits that surround it, and that's who you should be looking for. There are some hidden areas around that you can find in the many pit area(your mapping should be helpful here).

P.S. I would never destroy your precious mirror.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

I do like that mirror

Yes, I have that scroll, but thought that the

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beholder would be somewhere in the hall of order, as the other generals were in the other safe room areas.

I was wondering why there was a big blank area on the map centered on (8,23,5). I looked around here a bit looking for some way to open it up, but haven't found it yet. I guess I'll keep looking, as this must be where the

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beholder's lair is

.

[Soaponarope]

Try looking

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underneath the area.

[lbk]

Sorry for the lack of updates, but I have been really busy lately.

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I am currently fighting dragons on the ring of fire level, they took me by surprise the first time but they are going to regret doing that. I have all the pieces of the clan key, just looking for a place to use them. I had to resort to making a map in order to find the beholder's lair, and that was a pretty tough fight. He had some attack that would just outright kill one of my people (500+ damage) so I had to run and hide then alpha strike him. I feel near to the end of the game, based on monster difficulity, so hopefully my next update can be that lord Order is no match for my guys

[Soaponarope]

Ibk,

I was curious how you were doing, you are further than DM player then.

The

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beholder

is one NASTY monster, and he can

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disintegrate when in melee range(that is the attack you mentioned). So he needs to be danced around or fought with ranged weapons, but then his telekinetic abilites and deadly pits around pose a big threat too.

It depends on certain factors, but he can be the toughest enemy in the game.

Yes you are nearing the end, though you may find things not what you expect when you get there.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

It looks like you need a

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master key to activate the Chaos Ray, which I don't have.

Any hints on where this is located? Is in the area after the rare coin keyhole?

Hurray! I finally found the mapping connection to the

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ring of fire level.

I had to start mapping the level without a connection, but when I got to the

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double death pit where you get the dragon door key

I saw a hole in the ceiling! This let me connect to the level above,

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thanks to levitate spell and the grapple.

While I was mapping

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the ring of fire level

I somehow opened the movable wall that lets you get to the coin keyhole that needs the rare coin, but I didn't have the rare coin. Went back to an earlier save, got the rare coin (thanks lbk ) and now in this game the movable wall hasn't moved

Also, still haven't figured out how to turn off any of the

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void portals. Just went ahead and killed all of the demons, and you're right, it does take awhile.

On the level above this, it would be good to turn off

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the void portal before the chaos ray scroll area, as although the deth knights are easily killable, the hairy eyeballs are not and seem to have an instant death attack.

.

[Soaponarope]

DM player,

The

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rarest of coins

spot is what you need to do. You cannot find the

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master key

until you do so.

Yup, that's why you needed some things to connect the level and it was still tricky to do so.

The spot with the

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coin slot shifts every time you use the forge area, regardless of whether you make anything or not, just being there. There were a couple hints about this but this may just be stumbled upon.

The

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demon portal area

is optional, so if you didn't figure out how to shut it down don't worry about it. The spot with the

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generating (hairy eyeballs )

is the tough spot I plan to tweak that I mentioned in the PM. I think I will change it so it can be

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shut down before getting master key, as there really is no reason to go back there once you do anyway. Once you do what you need to in the room with Lord Chaos's journals you should just avoid taking this path and they won't spawn. If you keep to the large main chamber, some existing ones can come out, but no new ones will appear. They don't have an instant death attack, beholder is the only monster with this, but they can drain your stats badly, which if they have hit you enough your anti magic and fire might be really low and spells will kill you a lot easier.

[lbk]

I must agree that the

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flying ghost eyes are annoying, as I can never seem to kill them (The ones you need to kill are not effected by magic...) Almost as annoying as all of the lord chaos' that get released (I should really try fluxcageing some of them)

[Soaponarope]

lbk,

The

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Lord Chaos Simulacrums have 1 health but have same resistances as Lord Chaos. You can use weapons to kill them or like all summoned creatures they can be dispeled. The lowest level dispel will do the trick. You are meant to quickly kill these guys as they are summoned or the firepower will overpower you.

The end is hard, no doubt, but your at the very end of the game now. You just need to figure out what to do.

Best way to

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kill the Xytax's (flying black ghost eyes) is to equip your best wizard with a weapon like the spirit blade, then use wisdom potions to raise their wisdom very high and you should take them down very quick. The true monsters are magic immune, but the decoys are dispelable and can't hurt you. Yes these are the most annoying enemies in the game, which is why they are only found here, except for the two that attack the safe room.

I'll be in chat for a little bit, if you have more questions about the endgame.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

When you use the master key in the lock on the wall at the start of the path to

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chaos scrolls a pad and trigger appear on the floor which seem to be party activated only. When I look around nothing seems to be changed. Does the party need to stay on this trigger for something to happen?

Also, there's a silent trigger that toggles the

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column closest to the pit and RA door

that doesn't seem to have a purpose. Am I missing something here?

I assume that

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killing Lord Order with the chaos ray, is the false ending, like in DM if you go back to the entrance. So, I'll try and figure out another ending. On this ending, you do need to put longer delays between the speech text so that a player can fully read the text before it scrolls off to the next screen.

[Soaponarope]

Dm player,

You should be able to see what is changing when you

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step on the trigger. It is a constant weight trigger though, so look around without stepping off.

There are a lot of silent triggers around that alter the area in little ways. Sometimes this is just to be strange, as Order is weakening and things are getting more chaotic. You just need to figure out what is important to your goal.

Yes that is one of the bad endings. Only the true ending will display your stats and such, and is considered winning. The bad endings make for fun ways to fail without dying.

I thought the delays were long enough, though I did find that one time I tested they were much faster than the other times. Was your party hasted at the time? Increasing the speed of your party seems to speed up the text speed too, quite a strange bug. I can add longer delays for this, but then if the party is not hasted the text will come very slow. I suppose this may still be better though, if the text is too fast to read sometimes.

There is some question as to what you should do

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after starting the chaos ray. Rather than a big boss fight, I went with a puzzle that needs to be solved while at the same time just staying alive. Look over the scrolls found on this level again for hints.

Once you start up the

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chaos ray, it should act as a point of no return even though it's not. Chaos' clones do not vanish over time like other summoned monsters, so leaving and coming back is not a good idea. You have everything you need to win the game, I recommend getting your party and useful items ready before starting the finale.

[lbk]

According to the game, I am the best around!

Finally got out of the dungeon, only took 22 hours, 21 minutes and 17 seconds

I didn't complete many of the quests (on this game at least) but was able to do a lot of things on my other games (On other saves I found all the sar coins, all of the gor coins, created the Prisim staff, made all of the balance armor, stuff like that...)

I love the random stats at the end, apparently I threw 384 worm rounds and took more damage from walls than almost any monster.

Great game.

[DM_Player]

Soap,

I've finished it as well, with only the 1 false ending (are there others?).

My original assessment of an interesting but difficult game still stands. I wouldn't have been able to complete it without some timely hints. Nearly all of the combat was challenging and some was very difficult, with several dying attempts needed, but not overly so. The hardest thing for me were the timing puzzles. I'm just not that fast on the keyboard and these would usually take me numerous attempts before my fingers got dialed in. The dungeon does demand attention to detail, as there are many silent teleporters and triggers, movable walls and making things visible and invisible, and switches with actions not in proximity to the switch. My mapping helped tremendously here (but it also slows you down and I know that it isn't for everyone )

I mapped 16 of the 17 levels fairly completely, but not totally so, as there were many items that I didn't find and some areas are only accessible with certain characters. Just as with lbk, I did some things not in my final saved game as well (although I may yet go back and re-do them). Since you indicated that the 17th level doesn't connect to anything, I could map it I suppose, but I would have no way of telling if it's correct, just that it's consistent to itself.

Thanks for all of your hard work Soap The game provided many hours of fun and enjoyment. I hope others take up the challenge of this game to reward all of your effort. I know that everyone has limited time, but this dungeon is well worth it. I think that the spoiler text and questions that lbk and I asked and left should make it a bit easier for others should they want to attempt it.

I know that your next game will be better yet

[Soaponarope]

Congrats to both of you!

Yea I don't expect anyone will find all the secrets without community shared knowledge. You found all the coins lbk? Nice, some are quite hard to find.

I love the random stats at the end too, another reason I put the cheesy/epic song at the end to listen to while you read them.

Yes there is another bad ending. You can

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kill Lord Chaos but find this isn't a very good option either.

It's meant to be a difficult one, for players who have finished and liked CSB. You two will have had the most difficult dungeon being the first players and with the monster spawn in some areas. Yes, the hints around should help new players some. As more play, I think I compile a hint book like Trantor did.

On the timing puzzles, lbk did you also find these to be quite difficult? I realize fast action stuff may be frustrating for some, and wonder if/how I should alter this.

For level 17, the teleporter back to the safe room is located at 12,31, if you want a complete set of maps DM player.

Glad to hear it was enjoyed throughout. I'm going to release a updated version now that it has been properly beta tested. Some little fixes and spawning toned down. If you think of anything else that you think needs tweaking, send me a PM please.

Thanks for playing!

[lbk]

I think I found all of the coins (there are only 4 of each, right?)

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The hardest ones to find were the Sar coin you had to climb up to get, the Gor coin for traping a thief, and the Sar and Gor coin you get for some Gouda.

I generally do not have trouble with timing puzzles because I use the arrow keys and move exteremly fast. If you want to make it less frustrating, try to make sure it can be done using either only the mouse or only the arrow keys (not the num-pad, not all laptops have those and it made some of the fast timing puzzles harder than they needed to be) Unfortunatly, this would make the puzzles pretty easy if you use a num-pad.

I also tried

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killing lord chaos, I think I did like 1000 damage to him and he didn't die... Does he just have a lot of health?

As for suggestions for the game, these are areas that might be difficult for future players:

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It is very cool what you did using a spinning teleporter, moveable walls, and changing wall objects to make it look like you walked down a long hallway to a new area when in reality you were just spun around. I feel that this will confuse people who have not used the RTC editor, having something in the first long hallway to alert the player of this would help out (Either a scroll or some sort of wall items in the hallway so they can see they are being spun)

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I had problems with all the teleporting (Like in the spider lair, the forks in the road) maybe add a sound when being teleported? (I feel this is a good point to tell you that I don't play with sound normally)

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The pits area might need some re-working. I am only really sure what (about) 4 of the buttons in there actually do. Navigating the pits is not a problem, but not having flipped a switch way back in the beginning is frustrating. I don't know how this would be more effectivly done, but having hidden switches very far away from where they activate anything is annoying.

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By changing the 4 classes (like making ninja’s actually useful) you should include a scroll or 2 that give the player hints about that. I tried using a club to kill the Death Knights for the longest time.

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The gas chamber uses DM2 graphics for the poison clouds, this makes the game slow when you enter. I am not sure if making them DM1 poison clouds would help?

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Destroy the mirror.

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I am pretty sure that I cannot get back into the demon area on the ring of fire level. I went in to get the winged key and teleported out. Not sure if I can get back in, since this area is important I would make sure that it is not possible to be trapped outside of here.

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The teleporter turn off switches in the crypt had me confused until DM_Player told me about the 12 door area and how it works. This could be a part that you will need to help people with in the future.

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Some of your levels are dark (Like Ifrit’s place) no matter how light I tried to make it, they were still dark. Don’t know if that happens on purpose, but I like things to be really bright so I can see everything.

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Just as a general suggestion, you could include maps (on scrolls or walls or whatever) to help with particularly difficult areas.

That is really all I can think of now, I might add more later if I remember other things.

[Soaponarope]

lbk,

Yes four Gor and Sar coins, and those are the ones I meant. Gold and copper coins there are five. There are just enough coins to open everything, but that means having a certain character for the earlier ones.

I always use the keyboard to move myself as well. The pit area is meant to take several tries before getting through it all, but with the teleporters going back to checkpoints I try to make it so it's not frustrating.

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Lord Chaos

has enough health that

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killing him with weapons will take forever. He can be killed another way though.

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It is very cool what you did using a spinning teleporter, moveable walls, and changing wall objects

There are some places where a hint is likely needed. This first spot is one of them.

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I had problems with all the teleporting (Like in the spider lair, the forks in the road) maybe add a sound when being teleported? (I feel this is a good point to tell you that I don't play with sound normally)

The reason the teleporters in those areas have

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no sound is because I don't want people to know they are being teleported though. Then the obvious teleporters do. These are meant to be confusing areas, but I did give hint about dropping objects around.

The sound is an important clue at some places in the game, plus there is quite a bit of new sounds so it should certainly be played with.

I'm pondering over the pit area. Better hints for long range switches is a good way to go though.

Saying that ninja's are now useful is more a readme hint than in game. Some more in game hints on effective ways to kill monsters was discussed though, and a good idea.

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The gas chamber uses DM2 graphics for the poison clouds, this makes the game slow when you enter. I am not sure if making them DM1 poison clouds would help?

Hmm, never had a slow down issue here. A lot of places use the DM2 spell graphics, don't think that's it, but at this point four spels are fired at once.

The darkness on some levels is intentional. I think the cave tileset looks better when not at full light, and gave the walls a

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more reddish tint for the fiery caves of the Ifrit.

One thing I don't want to do is place the in game map(not sure if that's what you meant) as that would make many things too easy IMO. I would rather just have a hint book to help people through spots if they need it. Getting a little lost is part of the game, so long as it's not frustrating.

Thank you for your suggestions.

[lbk]

You wouldn't need to use the in-game map, but you could have a scroll that has an image on it (Maybe with a pile of bones, like someone was there earlier and mapped part of it, but died somehow)