[Custom dungeon] Conflux III: The Undercity [CSBWin] [Benjamin Prieu (a.k.a Zyx)]

Custom dungeons for CSBWin. Includes all Confux 2 and 3 discussions.

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Zyx
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Post by Zyx »

I'm trying to prevent a case of cheat where you go very deep in the dungeon and gain 6 levels in each profession in 5 mn.

I didn't mean to be so punishing ^ ^

I'm working on the xp gain, based on your feedbacks. Release f will have it right!

NB: that's why I didn't announce release E, I wasn't sure yet wether the xp gain was correctly balanced. I didn't expect you would find it anyway and play it as soon, Megar!
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Post by rain` »

Interesting, I had no troubles in Conflux IIIe in the beginning aside from one case:

I got mophus very very early using my awesome strat of rushing to ALEX's super secret storage and running around collecting monk staves/shurikans, and what I stumbled upon was that Mophus (in the sewer) would fail 20-30 strait lvl 1 mon potions! (The easiest spell to cast for priests) and after maybe 100 casts, still didnt even get to neophyte. At the same time, I did notice that it took a long time to get to neophyte fighter (I had FURX and CRYSTAL BLADE at the time), but once I got to neophyte I moved quickly to apprentice to get chop on both, resulting in chopped up antmen.

What ZYX did I believe was penalize you if you are too deep in the dungeon without high enough levels, and apparently the sewers was 'deep' for reincarnated characters. I'm not sure about the details but something like this may take a lot of tweaking to get 'just right'. Meanwhile I suggest all you Conflux IIIe'ers, train to neophyte or novice in the cellar, on rats perhaps, if you are finding training to hard in the sewers.

Also, don't go rushing down the ash staircase and expect to get archmasters in every category in an hour anymore! Zyx doesnt want anything to be TOO easy, so anything that is too easy is probably a bug (Remember the infinit ven egg ninja level trick in the spider level? 2ez.)

One thing I'm worried about though ZYX is what happens if you go so deep into the dungeon that you can't get out, but your levels aren't up to par? Not only will it be tough but you won't get better! It took me like 10 years to get out of moria the first time :P
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Post by Sophia »

Zyx wrote:I'm trying to prevent a case of cheat where you go very deep in the dungeon and gain 6 levels in each profession in 5 mn.
So? Why care?

It's like any other form of training, it's just less tedious-- people who are going to do it will do it, people who hate it won't. I don't see the point in continually making this dungeon more and more difficult and more and more inacccessible to new/less skilled players.
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Post by Zyx »

Well, you convinced me. There is no point in tweaking. In fact I decided to pour my energies into another direction: film making.

I think a cute idea would be about a parrot who is raised with eagles. It would be cute because the parrot can't seem to act like an eagle. After awhile though, to keep the movie from getting boring, maybe put in some pornography. Later, we see the happy parrot flying along, acting like an eagle. He sees two parrots below and starts to attack, but it's his parents. Then, some more pornography.

Idea stolen from here.
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Post by rain` »

Sophia: Its really more along the line of experienced-player abuse. No new player is going to know that traversing down a long staircase and seeing a monster thats big on the other side of a door grants a 5 minute path to level 2 master wizard (From neophyte!). You essentially could get 4 characters to level 2 master wizard/priest before bothering to start the actual game, resulting in a complete cakewalk. (Well.. almost)

I want a challenge, and any cakewalk possibility is so intriguing to me i almost can't pass it up. Its like playing CSB without playing dungeon master... you just won't last. Same applies to conflux III. Unless you've beaten CSB and DM, you just won't last.
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Post by PaulH »

Still, I think it needs tweaking back a little to the way it was at the start. I do not know of any of these 'quick level' fixes so I train early on against the rats. When I finally got a wizard level, i must have failed the ful spell 20 times in a row!

But like I said before, it seems OK now, its jumping that first hurdle.
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Post by beowuuf »

I think DM did have a safeguard against leveling up - 100 bloody doors. CSB also had one - it didn't matter, you start with high charatcers, and if you start with low ones then it's mandatory to get as much as possible. Conflux tries to start you with very weak charatcers as this is one challenge alot of times you don't face or savour - building up a good charatcer from scratch during a dungeon (not just training). Dm is basic at the start, so not as challenging. Maybe just a few tweaks are needed so everyone falls into the 'that was tough but worth it' category not the 'meh, i can't be bothered' category. Torches and stamina are usually unfair penalties, magic, levels weapons and health aren't as once you have those you can usually waltz everything.

I think the experience should be tweaked so that the council or spider level gives you as much experience as the starting level. The fact going down very deep too soon is actually punishing you is maybe the harsh factor. But I do think it's needed, as it's nice to be able to vary play, and not find that you are sudden;y on god mode just because you wanted to try the sewers first and rocketed up too soon (if you are looking for a challenge, whcih I like. steady progression fun!)

And the DM model does actually punish you for training. Each level requires double the experience. If you stay on one dungeon level and train, your trainins will be less and less effective, thus forcing you to carry on deeper into the dungeon where experience gain normalises out again due to higher modifiers, and forcing you to confront areas with dangers (like critters) where experience gain is better.

"I want a challenge, and any cakewalk possibility is so intriguing to me i almost can't pass it up" See, you can't reply on people to self-regulate their own challenge : ) . Hence a hellmode option, when there is one just waiting for you in the mal guild alcove already!

I think it's harsh to say you won't last if you haven't played CSB. You should know the basics of DM, which all people playing custms do I assume, or why play the customs first? But then it's more about just tactics and stuff. I think some people who have played DM/CSB less will have less bad habits and preferences, and less reason to go 'i died...i don't die with those, that was unfair, waht about a warning'.
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Post by Trantor »

Well, I can only speak for myself here, but I also think this XP tweak is not needed. I certainly don't train my characters excessively, but I think the choice whether you want to do it or not should be up to the player. I can understand if a dungeon designer is worried that his dungeon will become too easy if training is available too easily - but I think this is simply not the case with Conflux.

When I first played Conflux IIj, I solved all the main quests and had really strong characters - still I found several parts of the dungeon very hard and kept dying quite often. As far as I see it, Conflux III is even more difficult anyway, and since the XP tweak has a tendency into making the game even harder, I feel it is unnecessary.

Another problem I see is the use of later characters, especially the guild leaders. When I reach a guild leader, I have usually done quite something already, so my characters are much stronger then the guild leader, especially since I always reincarnate my characters. I used to do some 5 minute training in the sewers with a guild leader to get him up some levels, simply because I don't want to enter an area like Moria with a 60 HP/20 Mana character. It seems this is no longer a viable option in version IIIe. So I can either choose to go on exploring with an extremely weak character who won't get experience, or I can keep on killing rats in the cellar, carrying characters that are way too strong for that area with me. Neither option seems very satisfying.
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Post by Des »

As I've previously admitted I had problems in Conflux II and III at the start with the weak characters dying too easily, but once a few levels had been gained I was OK.

This is in part due to my favoured aggressive style (2 fighters bashing away with the back two hurling spells and missiles). This is of course totally suicidal when your characters have very low health points. I'm not so hot at the cowardy custard dodging around, blowing the horn etc. though I'm getting better at it.

I also mentioned that I do no training apart from poffing a few spells with spare mana. My favoured start for Conflux is to get the flask as quickly as possible. Do the storage area and wine cellar then go up rather than down to the sewers.

An interesting effect of this was when fighting the Black Pudding. There is a quick way of killing him but most of my characters were too weak to survive. The AI of the pudding was odd as sometimes he could be lured away and other times he stayed put. I defeated him when he refused to budge via attrition and gained quite a few levels in the process.

Excessive training is a "double bore" in that the training is no fun to do and then the party wins subesquent fights too easily. On the other hand if the characters are too weak players will feel that they have to train up in order to progress. So my 2p worth is simply to make the start characters a little bit stronger so as not to put people off playing this A1 brilliant dunge.
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Post by rain` »

I think the xp tweak Zyx is trying to implement is to eliminate strategies such as mine (getting master levels in minutes), not to hinder the training of normal activities such as training in the sewers. As far as zyx's idea is concerned, it is smart, but just needs tweaking. I'm sure the goal was/is to tweak it in such a way where the average dungeoneer sees no impact of it, but the abusers (me =]) don't get to cakewalk the dungeon. There are DEFINATELY areas of Conflux III that are suceptable to super-training.

Also, training isn't necissarily a tedious thing such as what you may be thinking. The reason I train in Conflux III is to build valuable hitpoints, stamina, and mana (Also, a few points in strength for the wizards so they can hold better armor/more items doesnt hurt). If you have four characters, two fighters and two spellcasters, and the spellcasters have little to no fighter/ninja levels, they will have drastically lower hit points and die very easily. Similarly their stamina will be utter crap and they'll go through food maybe two times faster than the fighters. Getting those spellcasters to craftsman-adept range assures their stamina/hp is higher (or expert/lo master if possible). At the same time, building priest/wizard levels for fighters builds stamina/hp as well. Training is important, but I should not be able to achieve level 2 master priests for my fighters (in mere minutes!). I should have to work just a little bit harder...

My strategy would consist of the following for conflux III otherwise:

A) Get zed (horn of fear is priceless), or alternatively another character
B) Run through certain areas collecting monk staves, shurikans, maces, and corbums. Grabbing Alex ASAP doesnt hurt this strategy at all, but isn't necessary. Grabbing certain easily obtainable items from areas such as the crypt and/or council level doesn't hurt either.
C) Get any other three characters I want (I.e the guildmasters of priest/fighter/ninja)
D) Go to 'insert abusable training area here'
E) Train for 15 minutes, getting lvl 1 master or better wizard/priest/ninja/fighter levels
F) Walk the dungeon, obliterating everything.

Once you know the layout of the first 6-7 levels of conflux, it really becomes trivial. Using those steps listed above makes conflux far too easy. Part B requires some skill and knowledge, so I doubt Zyx feels it is imbalanced, part C has been made difficult by requiring certain riddles be solved before nabbing the best characters. Part D, E, and F are all solved by this XP tweak. So I for one feel it will be an excellent feature once tweaked successfully.
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Post by PaulH »

You assume we know all these secrets!
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Post by beowuuf »

Rain! We love you....please..let us help you...you can join TA (trainers anonymous). Umm, the other TA maybe not as good an idea - they might like your run around grabbing everything idea
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Post by beowuuf »

You assume those secrets willbe around next iteration too!
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Post by rain` »

Well, the secret is really trivial and basic: Most dungeons (and i say most because some are exempt) give MORE EXPERIENCE on levels that have harder guys. Anotherwords, it is default behavior of a monster generator to generate a monster with hitpoints proportional to the 'levels difficulty'. As a result, the experience gained will also be 'proportional to the 'levels difficulty'. Most dungeons progress as you go deeper (i.e. DM) and have difficulty levels accordinging to depth. Using this model, you can assume Conflux III is no different, as going deeper ultimately results in more experience. My assumption was correct and proved by going down a long staircase and, when reaching the bottom, training. It is no different than going from (in original DM) the arena strait to the dragon's lair and casting spells... I'm not sure how much of a scale zyx goes by, but I know for a fact you gain more experience on the spider level than you do on the sewers. If you have the rope (which is easily obtainable), just climb down some pits until you reach a really deep part! Getting back to the top is the tricky part though. I've over 300 logs of conflux in the past 2 weeks so you can assume I die alot! Each death = a lesson learned! hehehe
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Post by Zyx »

version f is out. The experience gain should satisfy absolutely everybody.
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Post by Paul Stevens »

satisfy absolutely everybody
Wanna bet?
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Post by rain` »

Im not satisfied, someone stole my gold key from the storage...

THIEVES!

EDIT: Damnit, those thieves musta found the ra key and swapped it with the gold key!! NOO!!!

Edit2: Agh, thieves stole EVERYTHING, alex's stash has been raided!!

My 10 minute run of uber-items has been raided by thieves!!!! ARRGGG
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Post by beowuuf »

That gold key was never yours...it appeared from nowhere and just made it super easy to go as deep as you want. No, more importantly someone stole my iron key : (

And you wanted an intervention, remember!
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Post by rain` »

Well Zyx, another bug from out of nowhere appeared... Stone golems hit you and you just warp (through walls maybe?). I got hit by one into a room with another, got hit by him and was in some wierd place i've never seen before... with a lot of really hard monsters.

Reloaded, did the same thing, got hit by the first guy into the same spot... this time i got hit by the 2nd guy on a different spot and i teleported to the cellar!

Somethings obviously not right here... Unfortunately this means starting over again doesnt it ><
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Post by Zyx »

send me the savegame, i'll fix it
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Post by Mindstone »

i was playing at 1am and i innocently pressed the switch that opened the gates to hell!

I freely admit to being so scared that i had to close the program and open it again.

Top stuff!
Spears of Valour: My free-to-download mass fantasy game! https://www.wargamevault.com/product/46 ... sy-battles
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Post by rain` »

Well i've been thinkin about some competitions for conflux III (speed runs mainly), and I've come upon one that is feasable, quick, easy, and fun. Or so I believe it is.

Well, heres the proposal:

Objective: Race to tri-guild masters.

In short, a competition to get any 3 guild masters (halk, gothmog, mophus, leyla) in your party along with one other guide of your choice. Either minimum number of moves or minimum time. I prefer time because with moves you can sleep as one move.

In my eyes, this is a really good competition for a number of reasons:

a) Theres many paths you can take, you only need 3 of the 4, so maybe leaving halk behind might be your strategy while not getting gothmog may be mine!
b) It can be done without exploring deep in the dungeon.
c) There are mounds of useful items in the first few levels that we take for granted, and there are mounds of other useful items that most people don't know about! Conflux III masters we will become.
e) It gives a chance to learn the layout of the first half of conflux III, tricks on how to get around, and useful pits to drop down and find rare treasure (For instance, getting into late fighter guild requires an item... I know of three distinct ways of getting this item now!).
f) Theres so many paths to take to get the guild-items, and so many guild items to get, unlimited strategies to test out!
g) Not as much randomness as race to ful ya pit (speed boots anyone?), but still randomness enough to make it enjoyable (vexirks in the guild eh?)


We haven't had a good crowd involved in competitions lately, but I think this is definately a possibility! Let me know what you other conflux'ers think.
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Post by Zyx »

I can host all the movies of such competitions when I get back, in 10 days.
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Post by Paul Stevens »

Don't do it until we get a newer version of the
game and of CSBwin. Please. I don't want to
have to deal with lots of movies that won't work.

I have a new CSBwin that fixes a couple problems.
Don't remember exactly what they were. I have
not given the new CSBwin to Zyx because I am
spending at least a couple hours each day trying
to find what Zyx refers to as a 'Morale Problem'.
Monsters seem to turn and run rather unexpectedly.
According to Zyx, anyway. And I don't expect to
find it soon.

Should we release a new dungeon and CSBwin
without fixing the Morale Problem? To make this
competition more stable?
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Zyx
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Post by Zyx »

well, yes, because I'm about to release version h and run for well deserved vacations.
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Post by rain` »

It is not an official competition (yet), I know zyx is still tweaking conflux III according to certain bugs/features/quirks we find. I wouldn't expect to have anything official until Zyx is highly satisfied with the state of conflux and of course you are highly satisfied with CSBwin!

I think we all need a grace period anyway to layout certain strategies. Perhaps we should work on actually getting all the guildmasters first, then getting them in a timely fashion! *grin*

I was hoping to get some feedback regarding participation, I wouldn't want to spend all my time beating my own records...
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Post by Trantor »

I think I encountered the "Morale Problem" myself a few times while playing Conflux, but I thought I was just imagining things so I didn't report it. Indeed, monsters sometimes seem to run away for absolutely no reason. Really weird stuff that sounds extremely hard to track down.

About the competition: As much as I like the idea, I won't be joining in it. Playing Conflux is quite for me already, and doing it timed would probably cause my brain to explode. I shall be very happy if I simply beat Conflux. Furthermore, DM is very much about the fun for me. Beating a dungeon is all the challenge I want from it, I am just interested in being better than other players. Not at DM, that is.
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Post by Zyx »

Version h is out.

Fixed:
- a graphical glitch with wallsets
- too low armor values for some monsters
- bug with knockback effect
- monster joining groups would sometime duplicate for a few ticks
- a rare bug that would cause a savegame to be unreadable
- master thief mechanism
- there was a wicked way to escape from the fate linked to the powergem
- a way to kill Morpanthrax
- a bug with the hit action
- the starving fog could follow you through levels
- some monsters telefragged would drop more items than normal

And more in the version history.txt
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Post by Paul Stevens »

I've been playing versionh for several hours.
It is starting to get slow and using a LOT of CPU
time. I see hundreds of missiles on level 5 at 06,21.
They may have something to do with the problem.
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Post by rain` »

I can confirm the CPU usage as well... I just turned in my furs and dropped down into the forge ninja-rope style, on my way back up to the guilds it suddenly just started crawling w/ some serious CPU usage. Not sure whats going on here, kinda unplayable. I put CSBWin on high priority to try and smooth it out but it ended up grabbing hold of my computer by the throat when I slept!

=]
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