RTC: THE DARK STRONGHOLD OF XAROSTAK release #5

[THOM]

Finaly I made it - here is THE DARK STRONGHOLD OF XAROSTAK

http://www.file-upload.net/download_30. ... 4.zip.html (Release 5 for RTC 0.44)

NEW VERSION!!! "revisited" !!!
look at http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=26415


sadly I had to upload it on a file-sharing-site because it's too big for my own webspace (3,5MB) - I hope nobody is hindered from downloading it by that.

I hope also you can enjoy the result of what I have done the last months at night...
feel free to try out, ask, comment, moan...

kindest regards

THOM

[Parallax]

Is that RTC or CSBWin?

[THOM]

sorry, forgot:

RTC

[beowuuf]

Gathered that by the amount of posts in the RTC forum!

Is the deep pit with the zo blade at the bottom supposed to be inescapable?

Is the scroll before it in code, or has something gone wrong with RTC?

[THOM]

Is the deep pit with the zo blade at the bottom supposed to be inescapable?

Yes (the Zo-Blade is out of order - therefor it is thrown into the abort... - and obviously you jumped in, too)

Is the scroll before it in code, or has something gone wrong with RTC?

which one?????

[beowuuf]

Hmm, inescapable areas you don't die in aren't fun...maybe comstant pioison i nthat case, or just removing it?

The one infront of the hole...it rwads gibberish, hopefully it's just a glitch with the explerimentl engine i'm using with a v0.43 game

[THOM]

Hmm, inescapable areas you don't die in aren't fun...maybe comstant pioison i nthat case, or just removing it?

I like to be a little bit unusual...
Well, a hole with the titel "abort" is usually not for jumping in... and what makes the difference if you are poisened to death or restart the game (before you die of boredom or hunger)

The one infront of the hole...it rwads gibberish, hopefully it's just a glitch with the explerimentl engine i'm using with a v0.43 game

Right - I forgot, that I placed something there...
In fact it's just paper that you find in places like that...

[Parallax]

I just started and haven't even exited the prison but I noticed a lot of portraits are shaded (read: the image looks grayish, as if covered with a layer of dust,) while others are not. If it's not meant to be, you might want to correct it.
Also, the shading in that area is very strong. Nothing wrong with it per se, I just hope it's not a sign of things to come. I like the wallset, though.

[THOM]

I just started and haven't even exited the prison

I hope you have realized, that you have to save a Party and then to re-enter the Dungeon (like in CSB) ?!

but I noticed a lot of portraits are shaded (read: the image looks grayish, as if covered with a layer of dust,) while others are not. If it's not meant to be, you might want to correct it.

Interesting. I think I havn't changed the portraits-stats from the versions used in DM/CSB. I will have a look, what you could mean.

Depending to the Wallset: the rest of the game will be more generally familiar.

THOM

[bitza]

interesting idea, like it so far. Just one point:

Well, a hole with the titel "abort" is usually not for jumping in...

The sign abort and the sign for the armoury appear transposed, ie the abort sign is outside the armory and vice versa. is this intentional? ifs, it makes it very easy to flal down the pit thinking it leads to teh armory, and f=getting stuck. Other than that, i like it so far

[THOM]

The sign abort and the sign for the armoury appear transposed,....
is this intentional? ifs, it makes it very easy to flal down the pit thinking it leads to teh armory, and f=getting stuck.

that's the trick you have to find out, here

[THOM]

I noticed a lot of portraits are shaded (read: the image looks grayish, as if covered with a layer of dust,) while others are not. If it's not meant to be, you might want to correct it.

Yes, corrected it! Don't know but maybe a confusion happend during the replacing of some portraits.

THOM

[beowuuf]

About the abort pit - a) it's not a pit, if you throw an item to test if it is actually a hole, nothing goes down into it, so I assume it is another button, etc

b) If you are going to put areas, with high level champions unable to access magic, that have no purpose and are essentially death traps, then at least kill people off.

If something isn't supposed to be solved, don't put a useful item down the pit, and don't leave them to get bored and quit themselves...it'sd no fun and loses your credibility, and to mind mind is bad dungeon design in that respect

Otherwise what happens is probably wha I did - I spend five minutes trying to use items such as the zo blade and fists on the wall, or other items to climb out, or sleep, to see how to escape. You are saying 'duh, it's just inescapable, restart' means later, if you have an area where you have to persevere to get passed, you have lost my faith - I am will just going to restart rather than waste any more of my time, get frustrated looking for other ways. If you then go 'no, you have to persevere down THAT pit' then frankly I wouldn't bother to keep playing!

Just a thought - there's no reason to annoy people when what you want is them to appreciate your hard work, appreciate cool puzzles, and have fun

Oh, a little niggle about the prison - the walls don't seen to have a view beyond being right in front of them. Anyone travelling at any speed through it is probably going to thump into walls every two seconds - more an annoyance than anything else

[Sabreman]

Hmm... the wallset isn't drawing properly for me - this is what I'm getting:



Also, walls pop up out of nowhere, which leads to a lot of busted noses

[linflas]

i went a bit into the game :
- i like the red wallset idea but not the wallset itself (the picture above *is* normal). anyway, it looks like another dimension where dead heroes are waiting for a new reborn and that is cool
- importing any party to your game is a bit dangerous for the gameplay : i'm able to take any archmaster character from another custom dungeon and add him to the party !
- i know how to have light in the dungeon but that's veeery very very demanding... and finally exasperating.

[THOM]

Thanx for all the feedback. It seems I have to release a second Version soon... (I found a few bugs by myself and there are some important notes, too)

About the abort pit - a) it's not a pit, if you throw an item to test if it is actually a hole, nothing goes down into it, so I assume it is another button, etc

????
therefor it is a clone of a pit it *should* behave as one - and in fact it does on my mashine...

b) If you are going to put areas, with high level champions unable to access magic, that have no purpose and are essentially death traps, then at least kill people off.

If something isn't supposed to be solved, don't put a useful item down the pit, and don't leave them to get bored and quit themselves...it'sd no fun and loses your credibility, and to mind mind is bad dungeon design in that respect

Yes, thats right - I accept. I have changed the bottom of the pit now. (BTW: The ZO-Blade is not useful anymore...)

- i like the red wallset idea but not the wallset itself

It seems, you are not the only one... My intention was to create a certain area - an "off space"... And because you spend just the first few minutes in there, I thought it could be a nice Idea to have it a bit unusual i.e. having walls that you can not see if they are a bit farer away...

it looks like another dimension where dead heroes are waiting for a new reborn and that is cool

That is what I tried to do...

- importing any party to your game is a bit dangerous for the gameplay : i'm able to take any archmaster character from another custom dungeon and add him to the party !

????
I believe you can do that in every game of RTC! And if your party is too strong it will be limited.

- i know how to have light in the dungeon but that's veeery very very demanding... and finally exasperating.

????
what do you mean by "how to have light"? And what is "exasperating" in your opinion? I am afraid, I can not follow you. Could you give more details (via pm if you think it is better)


THOM

[Parallax]

In the kitchen, the game crashes after attempting to display graphics of the wrong size. I'm expecting you modified a bitmap after you had it declared in your dungeon and forgot to update its definiton afterwards.

There are also numerous spelling mistakes.

Whenever this game has been properly tested, I'll be happy to give it another try. I'm done for now.

[THOM]

I have updated the Dungeon!

---- link deleted ----

what I did:
- cleared a Scroll at Level 1
- corrected Portraits-Images Stats
- corrected Bitmap-Error with Monster "Chef"
- changed bottom of deep abort-pits

@Parallax:
thanks for testing XAROSTAK. I had also realised the Bitmap-Error.
depending on spelling mistakes: because I am not a native english speaking Guy, I had done the best I could do. If you specify the mistakes I would love to correct them.

THOM

[Tonari]

Stamm that does reincarnate plays alone.
And, master key was obtained.
I think the atmosphere of a wicked arena and facilities to be expressed well.
It was interesting to decorate the torch and to lighten the dungeon.
However, I feel the torch insufficient a little.
The monster doesn't have the problem though Health feels that it is high a little.
Yet, it is still not possible to defeat it to the knights who defends weapons and the clothes.

Some of SCONCE seem to be wrong.
When the torch is put on some SCONCE, the torch is nothing but lost.

[beowuuf]

You can defeat the knights with the right group of players, but not on your own - you need good weapons and armour and four tough champions - use the door to clear out the room (standing toe to toe) but then use health potionsd to take out the ones guarding the weapons in the small area,that respawn

[THOM]

@ Tonari:
probably it is not a problem of the sconce but the torch itself! For my lightmechanics you need explicitly DM2 Torches. Sadly the one at the entrance is a normal DM Torch (as trantor told me already). Maybe that#s the reason.

but if the problem still remains, please tell me which paticular sconce doesn't work correct.

[Trantor]

I played some more of this dungeon and have a few comments and questions:

-I think I found a dead-end. After fighting my way through the various chambers, I entered all those chambers again to see if there is anything I missed or something has changed. When I arrived at the DM2 ghost, the door I needed to go through was closed and wouldn't open. The first time I was there, the door was already open, and I closed it behind me to advance further. Since I cannot go back and can't find a way to open the door, this appears to be a dead-end. Maybe you can add a way to open said door.

-More about the chambers: I entered them from the wrong side at first. Thus, the "Congratulations" message seemed strange to me, and I spent several minutes trying to get into the first chamber because I thought I could do something there. You might want to seal that way off so players don't get confused if they enter from the wrong side like I did. Also, the door you can close seems to open after some time again, and the monsters spawned in the chamber are free to roam around. This can be prevented by locking the door at the end of the corridor with the Solid Key, but I still wonder if it's intentional.

-The cloned Trolins without clubs have never attacked me yet. Intentional, since they have no clubs, or a consequence of the attack bug present in the current RTC version?

-There are innumerable amounts of seemingly useless items, especially coins and gems, but also several undrinkable potions. Do they have another purpose than filling my inventory?

-There is a hellhound that seems invincible behind an Onyx door. I think it's ok to have an invincible undead monster like the DM2 ghost in the chambers, but for a "regular" monster like a hellhound, I think there should be a hint if it is invincible (maybe in the Hint Oracle?). This hellhound seems especially weird since it looks like there is something in an alcove behind it. But after having the hound trapped in the doorway for about 10 minutes, all the while sleeping directly in front of it and blasting it with fireballs as soon as my mana was high enough, I gave up. I suggest giving the player a hint that this hound is not meant to be killed or, should my assumption be wrong, drastically reducing its hit points.

EDIT: Just found out that you have to kill this hellhound. Did I miss something? Because I think having to fight a mostly harmless creature for 20 minutes is just plain boring.


That's it for now, I'll keep playing some more. There are still several points where I have no idea what to do, like the magical treasures or the flying key that I'm supposed to catch. I like the dungeon so far.

[THOM]

-I think I found a dead-end. ....When I arrived at the DM2 ghost, the door I needed to go through was closed and wouldn't open.

interesting... I cannot understand how you managed this to happen ???
have been there for the first time coming from the "wrong" direction?

-More about the chambers: I entered them from the wrong side at first. Thus, the "Congratulations" message seemed strange to me, and I spent several minutes trying to get into the first chamber because I thought I could do something there.

that's bad - I have changed the appearance of the sign

Also, the door you can close seems to open after some time again, and the monsters spawned in the chamber are free to roam around. This can be prevented by locking the door at the end of the corridor with the Solid Key, but I still wonder if it's intentional.

Think you are talking of the one in front of "congratulation"?! Probably it is better to change the behaviour of the trigger which toggles that door.

-The cloned Trolins without clubs have never attacked me yet. Intentional, since they have no clubs, or a consequence of the attack bug present in the current RTC version?

no, this is intended

-There are innumerable amounts of seemingly useless items, especially coins and gems,

it's the same as in DM - most of them are not useful. they just give you the feeling of beeing rich. thats all. (that tells us, money is not everything... )

but also several undrinkable potions. Do they have another purpose than filling my inventory?

which ones? the ones in the laboratory in level one? they have a special task to do

-There is a hellhound that seems invincible behind an Onyx door. I think it's ok to have an invincible undead monster like the DM2 ghost in the chambers, but for a "regular" monster like a hellhound, I think there should be a hint if it is invincible

yes, you are right - added this

EDIT: Just found out that you have to kill this hellhound. Did I miss something? Because I think having to fight a mostly harmless creature for 20 minutes is just plain boring.

kill?? there is another way provided to get rid of it

That's it for now, I'll keep playing some more. There are still several points where I have no idea what to do, like the magical treasures or the flying key that I'm supposed to catch.

several places and incidents are a kind of "decoration". There is a logic behind the architecture of the dungeon. and that is the reason why some things are like they are and not in another way. if you understand that logic it could help you to sort out, which parts are important and which not...

thanks for your helpful support

THOM

[Tom Hatfield]

The ghost wasn't invincible.

If you want good feedback on a new dungeon, this is absolutely the best place to get it. I don't even play custom dungeons — well, I started Conflux III and simply haven't found the time or initiative, or desire, to really get into it —but these guys know all the ins and outs of what makes a good dungeon. Their advice should be taken with the absolute minimum of salt.

Just from reading their complaints, I have no interest in playing your dungeon, for precisely the reasons they've given. Let me know when a final version is released and thoroughly tested. Remember, this isn't you against the players. That's a common mistake designers tend to make, and it's why very few games are successful.

I could cite specific examples, but instead I'll give you a couple rules of game design.

First rule: a place for everything, and everything in its place. Useless items are exactly that: useless. Get rid of them. From what I've read, every single item in Conflux III serves at least one purpose, and I think that's amazing. Decoration is nice because it adds atmosphere, but as Trantor pointed out, the wrong kind of decoration will only serve to confuse and frustrate.

Second rule: players cannot read your mind, so you cannot assume we will understand your brand of logic. What seems like an obvious hint or design element to you may go completely unnoticed/misunderstood by 90 percent of the people who play your game. That's one of the many reasons people test their products, which you are presently doing, and I admire that.

Third rule: anything that doesn't fit within the context of the world or simply doesn't make sense will destroy the suspension of disbelief. Many players will also find it irritating. If you want to have something weird, you should provide a good excuse for it, one that isn't simply "I thought it was a good idea." The reason we have graphics and sound is so we don't have to imagine what the designer is trying to show us. If we want to imagine, we'll sit down with some friends and play D&D.

Those are my licks. I'm glad to see people making dungeons. It's a good step toward serious design. Like I said, if you want good feedback, you're in the right place.

[arturus]

Tried the link to d/l. Took me to the site and pressed the d/l button and all I downloaded was an empty IE web page. It looks as though it's all in German.

[Trantor]

Tried the link to d/l. Took me to the site and pressed the d/l button and all I downloaded was an empty IE web page. It looks as though it's all in German.

Correct, it's German, but your problem is still weird. I just tried it, and when I click on the "Download" button in the center of the page, I can download a 3.12 MB zip file... Maybe I could email you the zip file if you send me your email address via PM.

[Tonari]

I think that it is not a mistake that there is an item not used.
I think that there might be a dungeon of various types if a lot of people create the dungeon.

[beowuuf]

While I agree that a furnished dungeon is interesting, there is also a value in having special items having a purpose - or else in the reality of the world, why would they be there?

So the kitchen is a prime example of a nicely furnished area - some items and charatcer, and while nothing may have a useful purpose to the party, it is obviously used.

Meanwhile the money area just screams that you may need some of this currency later, when so far only the coppers have any use (i found an assumed inescapable area after saving so have had to restart from the beginning...hugely entertaining)

The potions in the magical area - while they don't necessarily have to all have useful abilities, why are they displayed if they don't have some use, and hence one may actually have a use to the party (then it is fun inventory balancing to take them or not, and realise later exactly what you need)?

[THOM]

well well - what to say?

@Tom Hatfield:
you criticize my basic Idea of the dungeon. while I was always sceptic about the architecture of dungeons, where obviously everything is created for a party to follow (like in DM [which I although like a lot] - it beginns with the mirrow room, followed by the linear path throug it with numerous wallinscriptions) I wanted to design a dungeon, where everything is open and "realistc". Therefor you have many places that could be in such a enlivend place and some of them have a purpose for you - some not. The kitchen i.e. is not helpful in finding your way through the rooms, but it is an important place for finding food.
I think my dungeon is not DM like (because it has not that linear design) but it is also not something completely different. It just needs a different wy of walk through...

But I consider your adwises seriously. Especially the point of "people can not read my mind" is very important for me. I want to disable all those mistakes that I have made. I will have a look, how much too far I have gone...

@beowuuf
maybe you are right in finding a need for all those money (a shop could be somewhere in the upper areas) I thought about that, but then decided that my dungeon is so full of objects, that there is no need for a place to get others...

what do mean by "The potions in the magical area"? do you mean the ones in the first level? they HAVE a use!
deeper in the dungeon there is a stock of liquids which are parts of a puzzle - they have a use, too.
I don't know about other potions (or did I missed something???)

i found an assumed inescapable area

which one?

[beowuuf]

I found myself inside the arena where a worm generates every so often...threw a few things, played a few things, but as you'd released a new version anyway i started replayng - so yeah, never got far enough to see the potions had a use