Not fed up

[beowuuf]

Don;t worry, I was just teasing about the combat For one of the other clones that has a pseudo scripting language, I tweaked the dragon. I gave him a cone of flame effect, one that could destroy doors and fake walls. I also gave him a 'tail', an attack that meant if you were at his side, and he turned away, it spun the party diagonally away and damaged them as if from a tail strike. I also beefed up his front bite attack - I forget if I made it strike multiple members or not. With a little added speed, it made him a little bit more of a challenge, though not too much in the end.

For fun I gave him giggler speed - them it became painful!

Actually, that was more fun because the actual idea was to make the dragon invlnerable (which it was in the proper version I created) aside from using the best bow and firing the best arrow possible directly into its maw. That's right, you had to face the dragon, wait for it to attack you, then fire the moment it attacked to bite/breathe fire to kill it

Anyway, all the clone engines are flexible in their own ways, so some cool battles have been created along the way.


You might like CSB battles because terrain can add the edge to combat. However, as CSB is non-linear it doesn't address a logical ramping of combat either.

Armours are a little more threatening in number or confined spaces due to their double attack ontop of high armour and magical resistance. Given the DM level lay-out though, you were probably able to bypass that advantage quite easily!

[slide]

Yes, the guys in armor were easily led to a place where I could dance around them. They'd have been very difficult in hallways. I'd have to hit, retreat, hit and so forth. I didn't realize they has magic resistance as I never tried it. I figured that magic wasn't useful against animated steel.

One interesting aspect of this game which I don't get is why some foes are stuck behind barriers which i can pass. I knocked off a gray giant while he was trapped in some sort of field. Ditto an armored guy or two.

Those mods you did to the dragon seems quite challenging. As to arrows and flying stars, I quickly found that sort of weapon to be ineffective and slow to reload so I finished the game hardly more a ninja than I started. I suppose an interesting variant would be to play a solo or duo as magic and ninja but mostly ninja. I have no idea if this can be done. I don't think the game can be played w/o any magic.

[beowuuf]

People have done stranger things! You need magic once to release the firestaff at the end, but otherwise you can brute force the rest. Ninja also lets you use fists (good on some things liek the golems) and weapons like the diamondd edge. Projectiles are good for low level, but they do tend to get abandoned later.

The barriers are indeed weird whern you encounter them. They stop the creatures from roaming too far and mixing oddly, however barrier placement like the one that stops the armour can let you just kill the creature without risk. Mechanically, the barriers are just an invisible flavour of the blue haze teleporters. I must admit I've seen the mechanic used better when it is in the corner of a room, and with a spin added, so the creature looks like it walks away bored. That also makes it much harder to attack, as you have to go back in and risk being attacked instead of quickly jumping backwards and forward.

[Ameena]

I think I may have mentioned this but I probably would have spoiler-tagged it, but there is one Skeleton Key too few to open all the doors. The one I normally miss out now is Level 12, because it's an evil-bastard level with all those bloody Spell Vines and once I have the last Ra key and the Master key, there's no reason to go back there.

[slide]

Oh, I got that one. It was a very difficult hallway with those 'Vines' (?) which I call floating squids. I think I missed many, then. IIRC, I only opened the doors at that level and the big room level. I had an obsession that there must be a key at rat level but I never found it so I can't be sure it was there.

[Sophia]

For one of the other clones that has a pseudo scripting language, I tweaked the dragon. I gave him a cone of flame effect, one that could destroy doors and fake walls. I also gave him a 'tail', an attack that meant if you were at his side, and he turned away, it spun the party diagonally away and damaged them as if from a tail strike. I also beefed up his front bite attack - I forget if I made it strike multiple members or not. With a little added speed, it made him a little bit more of a challenge, though not too much in the end.

I remember this. Pretty good modifications, I think.

Imagine what you could do now that there is a clone with a real scripting language...

[Bit]

Baby dragons?

[Ameena]

There's a Skeleton key on every level from, I think, Level 9 (Rat level) and below, except for one which I can't remember - there are enough locks but you'll be one key short if you find all the ones that are available. And yes, the things you call "squids" are the ones I'm referring to when I say "Spell Vines" - if you think about it, it can't really be the Knights or the Giant Spiders, can it? Oh, and I think the Skelly key on Level 9 is held by a Vexirk - unless you kill him from a mile away you should be able to hear the "clink" of it dropping when you kill him.
Regarding the use of magic, there's only one route through the "Cast your influence, cast your might" bit, isn't there? So you'd be needing magic there.
I never bother with actually using Ninja stuff, but as the skill level affects stats like Anti-Fire (I think), it's useful to advance so once I'm down at, like, Level 9 or so I find something heavy like a chest or boulder and have someone repeatedly chuck it over and over again (as it's heavy it drops on the ground right in front of me so I don't have to move to pick it up ) - the item being heavy plus being on a deeper level means I level up quite quickly, usually getting to about Journeyman before I get bored (or because the item starts making it past the first square and landing on the next) and switch over to the next character to practise.

[Jan]

There's a Skeleton key on every level from, I think, Level 9 (Rat level) and below, except for one which I can't remember

There's no skeleton key (but a lock for it) on the Lord Chaos level. And, of course, there's neither a key or keyhole on the Dragon level.

I always leave unopened the skeleton lock on the scorpion level - there's no reason to return there and there's a danger of the Flying Eyes or even the Scorpions blocking the stairs.

I had an obsession that there must be a key at rat level but I never found it so I can't be sure it was there.

Spoiler

It's carried by a Vexirk (small little wizard) in a secret area opened by a small switch behind the "What is under foot is soon overhead" fireball hall. Go to the left from the fireball launchers (left when you're coming to the area from the beginning of the level) and the switch is in the dead-end where the corbamite and rope lies (lay).

[beowuuf]

Though it is a pain to try to get to anywhere near that keyhole going through the level or backtracking. I risk it, and leave the level 12 open

[Ameena]

Though there is no skelly key on level 14, you can use the Winged key, I think, to access the bottom of the stairwell - if I remember rightly, the key is found

Spoiler

on level 7, through a fake wall in the NW corner of the map, possibly after you push a button - I think the key is just lying on the floor in the revealed corridor once you step through

.

[slide]

I don't think that's the location of the wing key. I may be wrong but...

Spoiler

IIRC, it was in a fireplace on the level with the spider regen room.

I do remember opening up the passage to the skull stair from the same level containing the staff concentric maze.

I'm getting a mild itch to at least look at CSB.

[Jan]

Ameena is right, the Winged key is in

Spoiler

a double secret area on the Firestaff level (two small buttons must be pushed to reveal it)

.

in a fireplace

LOL. What's a "fireplace"? But perhaps you're talking about the Master Key in an alcove at the end of that level (behind the moving pits).

the passage to the skull stair from the same level containing the staff concentric maze.

OK, so you did find the *very-secret-semi-central-stairway* and so in the passage leading to this stairway there's

Spoiler

the second button leading to the Winged Key.

I hope I made it absolutely clear. Unless I've made everything even more confused.

I'm getting a mild itch to at least look at CSB.

Goood, goood, my young apprentice, gooood! The force is strong with you! Goood!

[Gambit37]

Use a map! http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/140

[slide]

Jan,

Yeah, I confused the Master and the Wing key. There are fireplaces all around the DM dungeon. OK, alcove, niche, fireplace - looked like the latter to me. I'm giving it a few days and then may try CSB just to find out that it's over my abilities. Probably makes more sense to try a duo in RTC to hone my skills.

Gambit - I kept wondering where the auto map was in this game. I suppose this is before auto maps were pretty standard. I've tried to avoid published maps to keep the edge on. Ditto spoilers, but thanks for the link.

[Ameena]

It looked like a fireplace apart from the lack of stuff like fire, wood/coal, and a chimey, you mean?
And no, there are no maps - this isn't one of those more recent games that does it all for you - if you want a map, do it yourself or find one someone else has made .
Anyway, if you start CSb and decide you don't like it, you're not exactly obliged to keep playing, are you?

[slide]

No, but I am ending DM on a high note having gotten to the foozle. As to them being fireplaces or not, the place doesn't have any furniture either so the lack of wood in the fireplace seemed natural to me.

As I said, I may give it a go after a bit of a break or try a single or duo in DM. My only real issue in the game play of DM / RTC, is the almost impossibility of finding gray keys on a gray floor. Even when I asked for a spoiler, such as in the eyeball maze, I had to really hunt and feel around to find them. I also never really solved some of the puzzles. Two come to mind in treasure stores. The pits with the snakes area was one I finally did get to close all the pits and get to the end, but I never figured out how I did it. The blue rain room was one I never even had an idea how to address. No, I"m not looking for spoilers which I guess I could find here, but just commenting.

I also thought the game wasn't balanced as well as it could have been - discussed earlier. Anyway, the difficulty in finding those gray keys put a damper on my enjoyment of the game and is a slight deterrence to trying again. Is CSB so heavily reliant on keys as well?

[Ameena]

There are tons of keys in CSB, but you don't need a lot of them - because of the non-linearity of the dungeon, you might get stuck at a locked door only to find yourself the other side of later having gone up some stairs, down a few pits, around some corners, and through an invisible teleporter or six . There are definitely some keys you need, but those ones are unique. If you find you're storing up a large quantity of keys of the same type, it's a fairly safe bet that they're not essential (though may be useful) for progression. And another reason to probably not try CSB solo straight away until you know what stuff you're gonna need in order to finish it .

[beowuuf]

You could always try CSBwin instead of RTC. CSBwin is a clone based on transposing the code directly from the atari engine to PC (which did not happen with the real engine, sadly) and is therefore pretty much exactly the original. That at least would remove the grey key niggles and farsighted monsters with powerful spells. Though the downside would be not using your RTC champions, of course...

[slide]

Oh, I wasn't thinking of CSB as a solo. I was thinking of RTC/DM again as a duo or solo. If I try CSB, it'll be as a full team. The idea of doing DM/RTC as a duo is daunting. Taking on CSB sounds impossible and would be impossible given my limited abilities. I'm supposing you guys here have played dozens of games over the 25 year life of this game. Not me.

I may try the CSBwin instead. I don't think my team all that strong. There are 3 experts and one master in their specialty. If they were all masters or major masters (I'm assuming there are grades of masters like degrees of black belts) I'd regret leaving them. If CSB is as tough as all say it is, then the CSB stock champions should be a better choice than my indifferent team.

[Ameena]

Nah, Expert-Master is good for the end of DM, that's about right, I'd say. And yes, Master levels do go up - they go through the six levels of the Power Runes (Lo, Um, On, Ee, Pal, Mon), and then the final rank is Archmaster. I'd say that having chars around Expert/Lo-Master level in their preferred areas is a good way to end DM. They'll probably gain a few more levels in CSB but don't expect any Archmasters unless you spend a hell of a lot of time training . I think the CSB starting characters are around the Expert-ish level to begin with anyway - personally, I prefer taking my team that I know and love from DM and getting them to go through the CSB dungeon rather than a bunch of strangers . And bear in mind no-one gets to start with any free stuff like you do in DM - you're all a bunch of nudies standing there in the middle of the dungeon...but I won't tell you exactly how the game starts once you've chosen your team - you can find that out for yourself .

[slide]

I started a new duo (Wu Tse and Tiggy) in RTC. I got to worm level rather quickly. The game second time around is wholly different. It lacks the great dread that the first run had for me. Instead, I remember what is around the corner so I'm never surprised. I also learned to stop at a good place with food and water & practice so my team is WAY ahead of where it was the first time around. My team is pretty much invulnerable because I know what's coming so I'm always prepared.

I pulled a cheat and looked at the .txt files for CSB in RTC. WTF???? I can't even understand them looking at the files!! Do people actually win this one? I would suppose, based on my try of DM, that most succeed in the game. I am skeptical that this is the case with CSB. I'd bet there MUST be many drop outs. I read that CSB was supposed to be an expansion pack for DM. An expansion pack is a level or two of roughly the same difficulty at the main gain. This isn't an expansion pack. It's apparently an incredible challenge. I can't say I studied CSB, but based on the level 0 I looked at, L0 is more difficult than any four levels of DM combined.

[Jan]

Cheater! Cheater! Thief! Thief! They ssstole it from ussss! Thief!

Don't worry too much about the level 0 - it's not a

Spoiler

starting

level, after all!

[Ameena]

CSB is a whole extra dungeon, though instead of DM's 14 levels, it only has 10...but because of the non-linearity of it, you probably will have no clue what level you're on most of the time .
Yes, you will probably die lots when you play CSB, but that still happens to us more experienced players, so don't feel too n00bish if you get ganked repeatedly by the same puzzle or whatever . And you can always bug us for clues and stuff, though there are threads in the CSB section of the forum where other people have done just that, so you might find any info you want is already there.
Although it is a complete maze, though, CSB does have a few places you'll find yourself coming back to multiple times, so you can use those areas for storage and stuff. If your current DM duo manages to do what your four-person team couldn't and finish the game, you could consider taking them through into CSB - if you find it's not working out, just try again with your four-person DM team (I don't think they have to have finished DM - you just select your last saved game and it brings in the chars from there, so that will have been before you actually finished), or even try with a team of the starting CSB heroes, which I think few people ever do though I know there've been a few solo runs, at least, with some of them.

[slide]

Doing RTC with the duo was too easy. I never even bothered to save until I got tired of sitting. There are, after all, no surprises and no puzzles. I suppose I could have tried a few different methods to get through such as not taking the blue rain shortcut to bypass the eyeball hall or spending the rest of my life figuring out the blue rain room in Treasures.

Instead I grabbed a random bunch from CSB and started a game. Somehow I ended up in a passage where I was attacked by what seemed like an endless supply of things which rear up like water spouts but they aren't spouts. I'm guessing they are fire elementals since we had water and earth in DM. Hmm, we also had fire there in those flaming dishes. Well, this then was maybe wind. With teeth.

After addressing that threat, I got wiped out in an instant by a fireball Gee, time for a new variant on what wipes out my entire bunch in one shot.

So I went from too easy to much too difficult. I may return. Not sure now.

[beowuuf]

Sounds liek you took the path of DAIN - the wizard. THe invisible critters are called Rives, and perhaps they are air elementals. Never thought about it really!

The fireball was in a room? There is a room in Dain where you need to figure out the puzzle then dodge the fireballs, I believe. Dain is nasty, some people take it last. That fireball room gives you an important key if I recall to carry on.

Anyway, part of CSB is figuring out the 'layout'. There are many paths radiating out, and the trick is to figure out where they rejoin, how to loop back, and then how to move forward.

[Gambit37]

THe invisible critters are called Rives, and perhaps they are air elementals. Never thought about it really!

According to Andy Jaros (creature designer), those critters are a rip in the space time continuum, hence "rive": http://www.thefreedictionary.com/rive

[slide]

So they are rives, eh? Well, interesting.

As to me taking a Dain, I haven't a clue what that means. IIRC, I left the starter room, walked a bit and found myself in another room with a few blue rains. I musta bumped into one because next I knew I was i the hallway of the ten rives.

Rip in the space time continuum...hmmm. I guess next I'll hear Picard call out to number 1 to shoot a few photon torpedoes at the Borks attacking with phase changers.

[beowuuf]

Do you have the sound off? It sounds like you have fallen down at least one pit.

You should get teleported to single square called 'the junction of the ways' where every time you turn around, a way opens up. They all have names relating to the spell runes - KU for fighter, NETA for priest, DAIN for wizard and ROS for ninja. Each has a theme, so lots of gights in KU, lots of poisonous weirdness in NETA, etc. It's that area you can keep returning to, dropping items for later if needed.

And it wouldn't surprise me if Q created the rives just as some sort of test. Of your patience, apparently There are vorpal blades around somewhere so you can kill them easier than draining precious magic!

[slide]

I do have sound off but not by intent. I d/l CSBwin and it has no sound. I haven't a clue why nor did it matter to me as I was only taking a look at CSB. I'll probably try again and this time keep a more careful eye on where I'm going. I wasn't seriously trying the game. I only wanted to get a peek at it.