Dungeon Master Forum

PetriH wrote:Zyx, this might be interesting information to you:
http://www.grimrock.net/2011/09/09/buil ... n-part-ii/

It is interesting to me, too!
I'll post something about my dungeon building experience for my own project, in another thread though.

Text editor on the fly....
...
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first all say I'm too old for professional programming and then my old methods are proved to be the simplest ones. Mad world!
Thumbs up for thinking that way!

Crash. wrote:How about starting a new thread to discuss what can be done to jump start Entombed? Grimrock's video got over 200,000 views on Youtube in less than two weeks, so there is clear interest in old school dungeon RPGs. Surely one or two of those people are animators or artists, and perhaps it is just a matter of finding them.

Count me in!
I'm not an artist nor my programming skills are as good as required for such a game, but my several years experience of GameMastering could be used for some game designing

To discuss Entombed, please either go to the Entombed thread, or start a new one, thanks.

DSE wrote:Either Im blind or something weird is going on ... I cant see your SSAO in the video, was it switched off.

I'm sorry I seem to have forgotten to reply to you.

There is nothing fishy going on. SSAO is enabled in the vid and screenshots and it makes a big difference (I can toggle it on and off on the fly).

DSE wrote:Just a little pissed off as this was what I was trying to do years ago and got no support from any artists .... guess you got to know one to get the job done :O)

This is a common problem with hobby projects. I too have been trying to kickstart the project several times in the past with varying amount of success but the only way to get it done properly was to setup a company and start working on it fulltime... btw. Emtombed looks very cool, nice to have competition. Good luck with the project, DSE!

That's the good thing about this market, really - a rising tide should hopefully lift all ships (LoG may well get more interst in some of the old clones and also throw light on some of the new ones like Entombed, too). Enough new people and people with nostalgia to go around, most certainly overlap

Zyx wrote:Interesting! By the way, how will you handle interactions with NPC, if any, and how far will you develop the engine about them? (for example, are multiple choices dialogs planed?)

We are focusing on creating the best dungeon crawler ever (please add a deep American tv ad voice here ). Mount Grimrock is a desolate place filled with horrible monsters and deadly traps and it definitely isn't a place to rescue damsels in distress (I'm exaggerating only a bit!). So there will be minimal or no NPC interaction. This is a design decision but it also helps maintaining the focus and spending our limited resources on core gameplay.

beowuuf wrote:That's the good thing about this market, really - a rising tide should hopefully lift all ships (LoG may well get more interst in some of the old clones and also throw light on some of the new ones like Entombed, too). Enough new people and people with nostalgia to go around, most certainly overlap

That is true. I wouldn't mind seeing the second rise of tile-based realtime dungeon crawlers! Some turn-based dungeon crawlers have been released over the years but they don't have the same spirit as DM, EOB and the other masterpieces from the 80s and 90s.

100% agree with you PetriH,
DM is the best dungeon games
it has a unique atmosphere and depth uneven
drop the PNJ the game should only be in a dungeon filled with creatures and deadly traps as DM

petriH revives THIS MASTERPIECE
The legend that is DUNGEON MASTER !!!! PLEASE !!!!

I'm interested to see what Almost Human's take on the first person dungeon RPG will be, as it won't be identical to DM. I'm sure it will have some needed improvements such as missle weapon management, but as an evolution of the genre, will probably not satisfy all purists due to some decisions that may change the formula. Some of the things that I find critical to this type of game, such as food, water, sleep, and resource management in general, seem to be still under consideration. Other less critical gameplay issues such as the color or flicker of torchlight, presence of automapping, or kiting counterattacks are things that I really hope will be selectable on an option screen so different people can all be satisfied. On Kiting, when I imagine trying to fight a Dragon in DM without being able to stay away from it's mouth, it would have been nearly impossible if the Dragon had a counter attack if you were trying to stay to the side or behind as much as possible (as I found necessary). Some creatures just aren't meant to be fought toe to toe! I suppose it would be better for more of the creatures to have a separate ranged attack to even the odds, or if the game has easy/normal/hard difficulty settings that control some of these variables - but I suppose this will all work itself out in LoG's playtesting phase. Even as it's own game, I look forward to playing this one starting day one.

Still, I wonder if anyone including Almost Human, will ever try to buy the rights to Dungeon Master. Seems weird to be collecting dust somewhere.

Crash. wrote:Seems weird to be collecting dust somewhere.

Not really weird at all. It's the nature of things.

Like everything, games are born, have their time, then die. A few people will preserve the memories as long as possible, perhaps even create something in homage. Perhaps, when the time is right, and by someone who remembers the original, they return in a contemporary style, and are reborn. DM -> Legend of Grimrock is a classic example of this life cycle of a game or an idea. Beautifully done, I might add.

agree with Crash in relation to food and water to sleep I hope the team will work

Gambit37 wrote:Not really weird at all. It's the nature of things.

My point is, that it seems weird to me that someone owns a property like DM that is probably worth something, but not making anything of it. Take for example the case of the fake Dungeon Master sequel trailer released a couple of years ago on Youtube, for "Dungeon Master - Chaos Theory" which got 50,000 views. That's a fair amount of interest for something that was quickly determined to be bs. AFAIK, Dungeon Master sold something like 40,000 copies in it's first year, and as such was considered a success, right? Then LoG comes along, and with its first trailer, gets over 200,000 views in two weeks. It seems like there is quite a lot of interest in this genre; maybe it was just resting.

Cheers

Who knows what Wayne Holder has up his sleeve? He still owns the rights, and is apparently trying to get SunDog onto smartphones, so maybe DM will eventually have an official smartphone version too. I doubt he'd make any money from porting the old game as-is though: after Paul S disassembled it, and others ported it to various platforms, you can get it for free on smartphones now anyway.

This is the game I have been waiting for! Since the days of "Escape from Dragon Mountain" I had hoped for someone picking up that work.

Very nice!!!


Please don't forget to include:

* Doors can kill Monsters
* No Music, just atmosphere!
* the real dungeon crawler mind maps the dungeon
* don't fireball against the wall

I am totally happy with tile based movement!

One argument in favour of looting items separately: "Take all" option minimizes the surprise moment when finding a magic weapon underneath the pile.

*****
Please include a Linux version! I think your game could be very successful if you distribute it via Ubuntu Software Center/Ubuntu One. If the game is reasonably priced, this community will most certainly support you

I think the mass-looting of a pile of stuff was only for thrown/shot weapons - arrows and such-like, to save launching a load of them at something and then having to pick them up one by one afterwards. I would imagine that any other loot still drops as individual items. Or at least, that's how I've interpreted it...

I also understood that the auto-pickup/equip would be for missle items, to prevent one of the minor annoyances from previous games, which was arrow gathering.

For that matter, if _I_ were making a game like LoG, here are some things I would change from DM/CSB:
1. Missle weapon pickup and arrow capacity
2. The guy on the left side lauching a sixth level fireball but missing the monster on the right side of the hall
3. Inability to determine which armor is best (other than trial and error)
4. Inability to determine which weapon is best
5. Inability to view a weapon's relative attack speed
6. Inability to determine maximum unburdened weight
7. Inability to determine level progress or skill proficiencies
8. Inability to identify items/item characteristics, particularly if there are those that affect hidden skills
9. Getting poisoned too frequently, such as in every battle, regardless of armor type
10. Overreliance on hidden/magic walls, hidden pits, and redirectors to make an area more difficult
11. Lost Mana for runes accidentally clicked in the Runecaster that need to be erased
12. Regenerating monsters in puzzle areas are annoying
13. More reasoning based puzzles that require a combination of actions and items
14. More sequels/expansions

I know, blasphemy! I love these games, but think maybe there could be room for tiny improvements.

Cheers!

Whatever! I think the Almost Human guys are really touching that DM thing with great respect.
This should be totally awesome. I bet every single DM veteran will buy one.

Ameena wrote:I think the mass-looting of a pile of stuff was only for thrown/shot weapons - arrows and such-like, to save launching a load of them at something and then having to pick them up one by one afterwards. I would imagine that any other loot still drops as individual items. Or at least, that's how I've interpreted it...

Your interpretation is correct

Crash. wrote:1. Missle weapon pickup and arrow capacity
2. The guy on the left side lauching a sixth level fireball but missing the monster on the right side of the hall
3. Inability to determine which armor is best (other than trial and error)
4. Inability to determine which weapon is best
5. Inability to view a weapon's relative attack speed
6. Inability to determine maximum unburdened weight
7. Inability to determine level progress or skill proficiencies
8. Inability to identify items/item characteristics, particularly if there are those that affect hidden skills
9. Getting poisoned too frequently, such as in every battle, regardless of armor type
10. Overreliance on hidden/magic walls, hidden pits, and redirectors to make an area more difficult
11. Lost Mana for runes accidentally clicked in the Runecaster that need to be erased
12. Regenerating monsters in puzzle areas are annoying
13. More reasoning based puzzles that require a combination of actions and items
14. More sequels/expansions

We've got at least 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9 and 11 covered. I hope we can add 2, 5, 10, 14 to the list.

to 1) - loved Dungeon Siege's autopickup. Perhaps secret things in the neighbourhood can be protected by a special first-flag,
to 2) - nanana, monsters must have their chance. fault is fault, At max a lesser effect,
to 3) - if different for different classes, picking up an armor should cause some 'gimme dat ding', realized in a few games.
to 4) - also - when monsters appear, a fighter could say to the wizard, 'now give me that blade'.
Such talks would give the game a good piece of atmosphere.
to 10) - confirmed - but - it isn't that easy to create puzzles without that at all, i bet,
to 12) - i ever hated regenerating at all. at least one should be able to do things that avoid that,
That way you have much better mathematical control how to skill up. If one does wrong, he simply loses chances,
to 13) - i'm okay with combinations, if you get a real chance to reveal how to,

11. Lost Mana for runes accidentally clicked in the Runecaster that need to be erased

Actually, this is by design and you should already understand why in the context of Dungeon Master's magic lore. Losing mana, even "accidentally", is something the *character* would have to manage, so it's logical and fair that this penalty exists for the player.

I agree on the annoyingness of monster respawns - I like to know I've fully cleared an aea before I move on. Well, random spawns are annoying. If it's player-triggered, by some kind of avoidable trigger (even if said trigger is undetectable by any audible/visual means until you notice mobs in a room you're positive you already emptied), that's different. I recently started playing Arena (Elder Scrolls I) and was rather quickly put off by the way I'd be systematically clearing out rooms in a dungeon only to be standing around sorting out loot (or whatever) and have a mob spawn literally right in front of me because of the random respawning. I'm now currently replaying Morrowind for about the third time because I think that game is so cool .

Bit wrote:to 2) - nanana, monsters must have their chance. fault is fault, At max a lesser effect,

You are right. Scratch number 2 off my list.

Gambit37 wrote:Actually, this is by design and you should already understand why in the context of Dungeon Master's magic lore. Losing mana, even "accidentally", is something the *character* would have to manage, so it's logical and fair that this penalty exists for the player.

They could have made it so that you regenerate the lost mana by erasing the runes but for some reason they made a design choice and did not implement it this way. I see your point but I don't completely buy the idea that the player needs to be punished if he accidentally clicks on the wrong button in the middle of combat. Is there a loophole I'm not seeing? Or maybe I'm just getting too soft

Well, you can handle it how you like in Grimrock. But in Dungeon Master there is a rationale for losing mana in this way, it's clearly explained in the Magick Lore part of the manual. I think the Magick system in Dungeon Master had a lot of thought put into it, not only from a gameplay point of view, but from a real-world rationale too, and I think they got it just right.

Anyway, you can't know if the user accidentally pressed a rune, or deliberately pressed it then removed it, so I don't think they should be given the benefit of the doubt: it makes things too easy.

I feel that in the case of "lost" mana... I'm gonna have to say that if it the player's fault, then it's the player's fault, and they should have the loss of mana as a penalty for clicking the wrong button. It's up to the player to play the game correctly. If they don't cast a spell right, then so be it.

Gambit37 wrote:Well, you can handle it how you like in Grimrock. But in Dungeon Master there is a rationale for losing mana in this way, it's clearly explained in the Magick Lore part of the manual. I think the Magick system in Dungeon Master had a lot of thought put into it, not only from a gameplay point of view, but from a real-world rationale too, and I think they got it just right.

Anyway, you can't know if the user accidentally pressed a rune, or deliberately pressed it then removed it, so I don't think they should be given the benefit of the doubt: it makes things too easy.

I was just interested to know why the designers chose this behavior -- the lore book does not answer this question and deliberately punishing the player for minor mistakes does not feel like the right answer to me either (you may disagree ). The real reason is probably quite simply: if by erasing runes you get back the lost mana then the player would be able to freely experiment with the rune combinations and easily find all the spells in the game.

It wouldn't make it any easier to find all the spells in the game. You'd still need to know what runes are "useful". You'd still lose your mana for actually casting any given combination... typing the runes into the spell-casting box doesn't tell you whether or not the runes will actually do anything. And it's only by casting the given rune combo that you find out if it works.

The DM Magick Lore doesn't explicity state anything about casting mistaken runes. But I think that reading between the lines it's pretty obvious every rune consumes mana, regardless of the intention. The manual *does* state "Only caution will spare him from foolish mistakes."

So, to summarise, 2 points:
1) The onus is on the player to pay attention and make sure they cast the right runes
2) You can't know whether the player cast a mistaken rune or not, so why are you giving them the benefit of the doubt?

I realise this is a small point, but it's a subtle distinction and I guess the way you implement it depends on if your focus is on making an easy-to-pick-up action game or a tense role-playing game? If it's role-playing, then you should not make assumptions about what you think the player wanted to do .