Dungeon Master Forum

Given that neither Haynuus nor Westian mentioned the fact he's armored... thus, I've mentioned it now. If they want to remove his armor, then I'd honestly say that now is a good time to do so. Farel's here aswell, so having the extra sword should keep him under control.

Haynuus stripped and back-packed his greaves and took off his boots (probably poleyn). Breastplate, etc can probably come off around his bindings, so I suppose it all still works narratively!

Haynuus did specify WHICH corpse (or supposed corpse) he got them off. It could be said that Passin is still fully armored, other than helm, he took it off in the battle (that's why he got his throat sliced to begin with!)

Ugh, yes, greaves is both singluar and plural, it could be Haynuus stripped them all off.

I need to know whose armours you are all taking - just the plain one of Passin, of the decorated armours of the sergeants.

Since you guys don't have magical backpacks, really only one set of gleaves will comfortably fit into a pack


Anyway, if you want to have Haynuus not stripping the prisoner yet, and really want to strip him down while he is conscious, go right ahead I guess. Me personally, I'd take the choice of assuming all of his armour off!

That probably would make the situation easier, even though that means that he's woken up AFTER being stripped... he most likely WON'T be very happy about that

Doens't matter, an angry paladin's waving a sword in his face, I don't think he's going to quibble

Hehehe
True that. However, once he stops waving his limbs around, I stop waving my sword.

Don't worry, he passed that point when his pitiful Escape Artist (cough dexterity) roll didn't actually beat the Use Rope (cough dexterity +10 roll) I did for Westian.

Or...did it?


Ok, I seem to have run out of days! I'm off first thing tomorrow to bonnie scotland, I might have internet, but odd rumblings sound like I might not. The plan is to do an update tonight that will hopefully mean you guys don't get bored and wander off, and maybe leave a few homework assignments / cool things to do over the next week I am off.

I think like when this game started and I abandoned you before, you guys seem to be in a great position to just sit in a room resting and talk to one another. You have clues to IC chat about, and since I've said you guys have a link back to your past now and it's only the immediate past that's fuzzy, you can start to actually speak about your own pasts and make up your chaarcters actions without worrying about spoiling any 'plot'.

Anyway, time to get some food, get my stuff together, get ready for things, then come back.

Oh yeah, with regard to lost memories, how would Ameena be doing by now? Will she be able to remember details of past friends if she tries? If it's literally just the very recent past that's still lost (getting to the dungeon and then inside it and to the room they all woke up in), I'll know I can just have her remember random stuff about friends from the past when thinking about stuff. MIght cheer her up a bit .

Pretty much. She won't have a flood(that seems odd) but I think her slowly reforming memories of meeting the others, Helm etc will let her have recollections of random people she has known, and her past, until her memory has settled.

Still no Ian?

Oh yeah, I wasn't gonna have her suddenly remember her whole life in one go or anything, just bits and pieces if it's relevant. Like if something happens that reminds her of an incident that occured when in the company of a past friend, or maybe meeting someone who reminds her of such, that kind of thing. I don't have a whole detailed life story set out for her yet, but I'm patching this stuff in as I go (and have been the whole time, it's how I build my characters, for the most part ). I've had one or two ideas about past friends of hers, or rather, what kind of people some of them will have been. But I'll get to it eventually IC, should it come up.

It's gonna get difficult to work with her later on, if she keeps losing it at the sight or smell of blood... I don't know how I'm gonna work around it

Try not decapitaing people for an hour, see how you feel

Or just attack undead, then keep pointing out how you can't do sneak attack damage to undead until she caves and murders the squire and feasts on his blood.

Sorry for not updating up to now, been busy at work... Why is it nobody notices that you're off on holiday until the last day I nearly missed my coffee break here in Spain I'm so busy - now THAT is serious, people.

Anyways, Beo is 'correcto' and I had the idea of Haynuus chucking the smaller pieces of armour into his backpack, and didn't get too far stripping the breast/back plates.

I say we get the info we need, then chuck the dude through the blue haze!.. Haynuus should really tidy up any spare swords lying around as well!

Well, we don't know what we're gonna be facing, or under what circumstances. Ameena herself hasn't said she'll never fight. In fact I think she did tell Aurek that under some circumstanes, she will. It's just she usually only tends to fight as self-defence, when something's got her cornered and her only way out is past whatever it is that's after her. If she has to sink her teeth into it to get past, then so be it, but she doesn't seek to kill (or even permanently/mortally injure) whatever it is she's fighting, just disarm or disable it long enough for her to get past and away. She's never been in a situation before where she was stuck in some weird underground place with no memory of how she got there - she doesn't remember how she got in, so she has no clue where the exit is, thus no way to run if she gets into trouble.
The main problem with the recent fight was that it was started by someone she'd been thinking of as a "friend", who initiated said fight by doing something completely unexpected (Falkor having not yet got ronud to mentioning he was a mage) and lobbing fire at someone who hadn't actually tried to kill anyone. And who had their back turned. And of course, Ameena being a furry critter, she's generally uncomfortable around any fire that isn't obviously "controlled" (ie flickering away nicely in a little hearth or a ring of stones or whatever). The whole thing just kind of freaked her out, plus she was still somewhat disconcerted about being stuck inside anyway. Those reasons, and more, all basically stacked up to make her decide taht she really, really didn't want to be much of anywhere at that moment, so she panicked and legged it.
If the group gets attacked by something later on which is blatantly aggressive, entirely hostile, and with no apparnt escape route, she's much more likely to chip in and try to stop it. She just won't stick around to finish it off if it's lying on the floor groaning.
Basically, fighting is the Last Option with her. Diplomacy, fine. Running away, no problem. Hiding and avoiding contact altogether, groovy. Kicking arse till there's no arse left but a bloody stain all over the paving stones, no thanks . Anyway, Aurek said he "never fights unless he has to". It's up to Wuffy how many aggressive things we encounter, and it's quite possible to go through a game of DnD for ages without fighting a thing. Not just DnD, actually - I've played a couple of sessions (several hours each) of Dark Heresy (where everyone is, basically, an Evil Bastard - DH Clerics are basically "YAAARRRR, BURNINATE THE HERETICS!!!!!" whilst wielding a flamethrower) where there was no combat at all. Well, we did sort of accidentally cause a riotous stampede by dressing up as rich folks in a Hive city and convincing those lower down in the building that there were bad guys after us (none of us actually ahd the Deceive skill but we all got critical successes or near enough on the roll so it didn't matter anyway), and then they all legged it and trampled each other and got run over and blown up by grenades and stuff, but it wasn't actually combat because we were just walking and talking and didn't have to roll Initiative and stuff . But anyway, I'm getting off the subject.
So yeah...and anyway, we can have combat without decapitations and dismemberment, you know .

You almost did with the Trolins, you got through two out of the three of them at the start without shedding blood and the initial soldier 'fight' ended up as an equitable surrender!

Yeah, someone on another play by post got a group of dwarves through a first level and part of a second level (going slow) without any combat.

This is DM though... you are going to encounter hostile stuff. How you deal with it is up to you.

The only major issue I see: what happens when Aurek uses sense evil, without Ameena knowing, and it goes berserk (so the person themselves is clearly beyond the mortal comprehension of evil)... as a paladin, he is bound to his duty to kill evil things... so he suddenly runs forward, and slices & dices the "evil being".... she'd freak.

We can't have Ameena running off every two seconds, now can we?

Yes you can, the wonders of play-by-post - the DM isn't leaving you guys hanging in real time to servive a split party

This coming week is a great week to discuss things like this while you are trapped in your room. I'm still getting packed, will leave comments about what you should ignore for a week and what info to metagame around later on....

Ok, done!

After all this, I'll probably end up having net access after all. Assuming I don't, what can you guys do?

- level up! Everyone bar Aurek (because he pre-levelled before the fight) gets a level in their chosen class. Details below.
- that wacky IC chat you lot wanted to have with each other! You guys seem to be able to self-regulate well enough, try not to ask any questions of NPCs that will stall the game, and try just hand-wave any gaps in player knowledge that I am not around to correct
- character stuff! Money, you can fill in Falkor's backstory a little more. Ameena....if I have to give you stuff to do with your character, I don't know what to tell you! OB/LB, you guys should probably bounce a few PMs or start a thread here about the order. Specifically the rules of the order so our paladin has an agreed flavour of lawful good zealotry to follow. It will also help me with NPCs - as you might spot, there are potentially another cleric/paladin pairing to find! Anything additional that might come out of such a discussion would be cool too. Ian - assuming you aren't going to be around due to lack of coffee or because you said you wouldn't be, then I guess you don't need to keep a hand in. Although some ideas for rival orc clans and tribes would be fun


Anyway, that levellling up thing:

Level 4 (Haynuus):
- add 1 to any ability score (check to see if this increases your bonus and thus any attack, save or skill bonuses)
- you get one more bonus feat (fighter-only not general)
- add one more skill point to a single skill
- add 1 to your melee/ranged bonus
- add 1 to your fortitude save
- gain 1d10 (min + 2 hit points (10 - 12hp)

Level 4 (Ameena):
- add 1 to any ability score (check to see if this increases your bonus and thus any attack, save or skill bonuses)
- you get nine more skill points to add to your skills (maximum 7 ranks or 3.5 cross-class skill ranks)
- add 1 to your melee and ranged bonuses
- add 1 to your reflexes roll
- gain a new class ability called 'uncanny dodge', which means you won't lose your dexterity bonus to AC when flat-fotted or attacked by an invisible attacker.
- gain 1d6 (min 4) -2 hit points (2 - 4hp)

Level 4 (Falkor):
- add 1 to any ability score (check to see if this increases your bonus and thus any attack, save or skill bonuses)
- you get four more skill points to add to your skills (maximum 7 ranks or 3.5 cross-class ranks)
- add 1 to your melee and ranged bonuses
- add 1 to your will save
- gain one more LO spell use and one more UM spell use
- gain 1d4 (min 3) - 1 hit points (2 - 3hp)

Level 4 (Westian):
- add 1 to any ability score (check to see if this increases your bonus and thus any attack, save or skill bonuses)
- you get three more skill points to add to your skills (maximum 7 ranks or 3.5 cross-class ranks)
- add 1 to your melee and ranged bonuses
- add 1 to your fortitude and will saves
- gain one more priest spell-like effect use, one more LO spell use and one more UM spell use
- add 1 to your turning bonus (as it is equal to half your level)
- gain 1d8 hit points (min 6) +1 hit point (7 - 9 hp)


Remember that if you increase an ability score to an even number (eg 13 going to 14) you will increase your bonus by +1. Note the effects:

- strength - gain +1 to melee attack and damage rolls, also athletics skill
- dexterity - gain +1 to ranged attack, reflexes save and AC, and also acrobatics, thievery and sleight of hand
- Intelligence - assign one additional skill point this level (not retroactive), gain +1 to appraise and knowledge based rolls
- wisdom - gain +1 to will saves, and heal, survival, perception and sense motive skills
- constitution - gain +4 to your maximum hit points, and gain +1 to concentration skills
- charisma - gain +1 to bluff, diplomacy, and intimidation skills


Sounds good to everyone? Obviously Aurek has been enjoying the benefits of level 4 already as I hadn't planned he'd meet up with you lot. Everyone will level up to level 5 together.

I am toying with the idea that after level 6, I will drastically slow down the levle gain of the characters to a normal D&D game. Basically, you guys were level 5 - 6 characters all along. Anyway, something to consider over the next week or two to see if this idea appeals, or if you would prefer to have a more DM-like constant gain. RP wise, you might find gaining to much too soon means you have to justify a lot of skills and staying power. Of course, it makes it a little more fun if you aren't being blown over by a semi-powerful creature aswell


Right, officially the game will restart with you as a party moving forward with the action stuff on the 4th January. I might be back on tomorrow evening if I have net, but otherwise I won't be back around until the middle of next week. Have fun chatting away, etc!

And Merry Christmas!

Groovy...I'll sort out my levelling later on and just make an IC post now. Have fun if you're not around to post more stuff, Wuffy .
As for the "Sense Evil" thing...hrmm...I know in the DnD rules there are of course alignments so things can actually be "Good" or "Evil" as part of the mechanics. But from an RP point of view, murafu don't think in such black-and-white terms. They don't think something should die just because it exists (as clearly a Pally does, due to his whole Lawful-Good "kill all Evil things" mentality). Maybe she can Aurek can have a discussion about that at some point. When you said about going berserk, did you mean that Aurek will go berserk if he detects "Evil" in something? Then she'll probably think he's just some kind of mentally unstable nutcase who'll start waving his sword around just because he doesn't like the look of someone. The way she's not very wary of Falkor because he lobbed a Fireball at someone's back (when she didn't even know he could) just because he apparently thought these were bad guys.
I think talking about it with her might help (in that she'll at least know why he suddenly decides a creature will look better without its head or whatever ), but I don't think any amount of discussion and conversation will convince a murafu that "killing is okay". It's just not in their mentality to accept that kind of thing - like I said, even if a murafu's backed right into a corner by some hostile predator that has no thought but to eat said murafu, the murafu, no matter what opportunities may arise, will only try to escape. They might give the predator a chomp on the nose to make it back off or distract it for a second, but only so they can get away. And even then they'll probably give a warning, if there's time. They don't tend to assume that a creature isn't sentient or doesn't have any "good" intentions (for a given definiton of "good", obviously).
Hmmm anyway, yes, this is getting into my usual long-windedness so I'll just sod off now and post to the IC thread instead .

When Aurek uses "sense evil" as I did for 3 rounds at the start of the fighting with the soldiers... he can peer into the soul of those around him, sensing all the evil that the target in question has comitted... There are mechanics that OB and I have to iron out, but the concept is: If he senses something evil enough, he goes into a rage, and that target is marked... if he lets the target escape without it "being for the greater good" (EG: Enemy escapes because he pushes an ally out of the way of a falling door/ceiling) then he takes a negatives to ALL rolls until the guilt is repayed (killed enough baddies, etc).

I'll not be around for a few days, but will try and keep an eye on in case anything happens... still, Falkor...and I,.... wish you and your families all the best for x-mass

I've sorted out my levelling. Also took the time to finalyl sort out my skills list so it's a bit more easy to read. Where the numbers in brackets are added together, the first number is the number of ranks (ie skill points spent in that skill), while the second number is the stat bonus (Dex, Str, etc). I've noticed, having done that, that my Athletics is weird. And my Acrobatics, now I notice it actually. Maybe I'm getting extra points from something else, I'm not sure - my Athletics (based off Str) has 5 ranks and no stat bonus, yet is listed as being 7. Not sure where the extra two points come from. Meanwhile my Acrobatics is 7 ranks plus 4 Dex bonus points (my Dex bonus having just gone up by one since I used this level's stat point in it), yet the total given is 13. Now I look through the list, actually, my Stealth skill reads the same. Though actually I have the "Stealthy" feat so never mind that (gives +2 to Stealth skill). Right so yeah, it's just Acrobatics and Athletics - have I made a mistake somewhere along the line, or am I supposed to have that many points from them?
I've updated my character profile over in the character thread, btw, so you can check it out if you want...

Check out how I show my skills on my character sheet... I make sure that I state ALL bonuses.

Ok, do have internet finally, although several factors of my mother's house make it actually unpleasant to be on the net, so no updates as mentioned! I'll check in for questions, but you guys should just RP away

@LB: Actually, that penalty thing is off for the moment, since I wasn't going to do the cumulative one, and you didn't want to have the severe initial penalty. As I said, come up with a list of rules with OB and I'll run it as normal D&D - transgress too far and the powers get taken

@Ameena: Have you double checked the fight again? You keep mentioning fireballing in the back, I#'m pretty sure Falkor made his attack before Ameena emerged, so Ameena emerged to the part where Arbrut was facing Falkor and actively attacking, and Falkor then was run through firing off a second time!

I might be mistaken, it's more difficult right now to do my plan ofgoing back over the offline IC thread for notes. If I'm wrong, apologies!


Anyway, merry christmas all!

No, Ameena was there for the start of the fight - the whole group had come through and it was just Drommal and a guard or two who stayed behind. Falkor spoke in Orcish, Elvish, and Halfling to hint at what he was going to do - he said something like "I think these people are leading us to our deaths, so I think we should strike first", or words to that effect and hoped that Ameena would understand (she has one level of Halfling language so she would have got the gist). I re-read the fight recently to remind myself of what Ameena would have seen - she saw Falkor kick off the fight, legged it shortly after he chucked the first Fireball and banged straight into Drommal when she ran through the teleporter. Then he, his guards, and Ameena returned through the teleporter. I think she got back in time to see Falkor nuke Arbrut the final time and then collapse onto the floor. I can't remember exactly whether she actually saw him get stabbed but if she didn't then it wouldn't have been difficult to work out what had happened to him.
Anyway...I think when we started I didn't have too much of a clue how the character creation stuff worked in terms of numbers and bonuses and stuff, so I think you'd worked out the bonuses for me, Wuffy. Maybe you got something wrong or maybe I messed something up in my point-spending on those two skills where it's gone weird. I have no idea. Maybe I'll get time to have a proper look through it all tomorrow - I can't really be arsed tonight .

Double check some of your feats. For example , the feature of the rats that they get some strength based checks usuing dexterity instead (swing and clib I believe)

There are many things that go into the skill bonuses

a) ranks. I kept the actual ranks seperate in brackets because that's a fixed baseline. Have you kept that as the first number in
b) ability score modifier
c) armour check penalty. Doesn't apply to you directly, but anyone wearing heavy armour or carrying a shield then takes penalties to certain dex/str based skills
d) feats. Some feats like stealthy give bonuses
e) racial abilities. Some racial traits give you bonuses to skills, or certain aspects of skills.
f) size. Being small grants innate bonuses to certain skill checks (liek the hiding part of stealthy)
g) synergy with other skills. 5 ranks in one skill can give you a +2 in another

As I mentioned, after creatign the murafu based on gnomes, having D&D actually have rat abilities kinda destroyed the balance a little. I tried to strip out all the gnome stuff to put in the rat stuff, and underpower some of the rat stuff in line with your larger than rat size, but it still makes some insane bonuses when added to your rogue skill points and high dexterity score

I've just realised you've added your skill ppints, so I really acannot tell what you have and haven't upgraded. Read your racial summary at the bottom, etc.



Appraise (Int): (3+1), 4
- yes, 3 ranks and +1 int bonus
Acrobatics (Dex): (7+4), 13, 17 to balance, +3AC fighting defensively, +6AC total defence
- yes, 7 ranks +4 dex bonus +2 synergy with athletics (5 ranks), +4 racial bonus to balance (reduced from +8 for rats)
Athletics (Str): (5+0), 7, 14 to climb and swim, 17 to avoid swim hazard. Take 10 on climb and swim anytime.
- yes, basc = 5 ranks, +0 strength bonus +2 synergy with acrobatics (5 ranks). Swing and climb gain +4 for using dex bonus instead as a racial feature AND +4 for additional racial bonus. And swim gets another +4 for another racial feature
Bluff (Cha): (2-1), 1
- yes
Diplomacy (Cha): (5-1), 4
- yes
Thievery (Dex): (6+4), 10, 8 only for assessing traps
- Actually only 7 for assessing traps (you use your int bonus, but 10 is correct)
Escape Artist (Dex): (5+4), 9
- yes
Stealth (Dex): (7+4), 13, 17 when hiding
- yes. +2 feat bonus for stealthy feat, and +4 bonus for small size when hiding
Intimidate (Cha): (1-1), 0
- yes
Knowledge (local) (Int): (3+1), 4
- yes
Perception (Wis): (7+1), 8
- yes
Sense Motive (Wis): (7+1), 8, 12 against non-humanoid mammals
- not non-humanoid, but small mamals. You aren't going to sense motive against a tiger or elephant any more than anyone else, but you might guess the instincts and behaviour of a fellow rodent, or other small mammals like foxes, badgers, cats, etc.
Sleight of Hand (Dex): (5+4), 9
- yes. And infact concealing a dagger is done with a further +2 bonus for 11
Speak Language (Murafu): (4)
Speak language (Common): (4)
Speak language (Halfling): (1)
- all languages fine

The trouble with 3.5 is that skills are a little broken in the basic classes. The variant I used spread out the skill points ot more classes, and also just had more powerful broken classes anyway. I will probably ret-con some skill point bonuses to the other classes, but not sure how to do this without breaking things further - for example Aurek being human and having high intelligence means any boost to Haynuus, Westian and Falkor's skill points will increase his further if it's bringing up the basic classses to rogue status, and yours will be more insane if it's just a general chaarcter boost!

Right, need sleep....

Night all, hope you had a good Christmas Day!

Ahhh okay, it's the skill synergy thing I didn't know about - that's what confused me about the mysterious extra two points to Atheletics and Acrobatics. I've corrected the trap-assessment bonus and altered the Sense Motive again to specify small non-humanoid mammals.
What's that part mean about concealing a dagger? Another +2 bonus to Sleight of Hand...where does that come from? How come I get an even bigger bonus for that, and does it only apply to concealing daggers or does it include other small items?
I've been thinking I might swap my stat point from Dex to either Con or Cha - either would increase the bonus by one since it'd be taking it up to an even number. I hate having stuff which give negative bonuses. I have a couple of skills that work off Cha so bringing that bonus up from -1 to 0 might be helpful. While none of my skills work off Con, it'd be nice to be able to get more hp.
Oh, one other correction I made to my profile when sorting my new level was that my Save vs. Disease was listed as +1, but when I was looking at the "racial features" bit, it says I actually get +2 (not sure where the mistake came from). I've corrected the Saves bit to say +2 vs. Disease, but if it was the other bit that was wrong and it should have been +1 anyway, then let me know and I'll swap it .

beowuuf wrote: - level up!
- Some ideas for rival orc clans and tribes would be fun

Anyway, that levellling up thing:

Level 4 (Haynuus):
- add 1 to any ability score (check to see if this increases your bonus and thus any attack, save or skill bonuses)
- you get one more bonus feat (fighter-only not general)
- add one more skill point to a single skill
- add 1 to your melee/ranged bonus
- add 1 to your fortitude save
- gain 1d10 (min + 2 hit points (10 - 12hp)

- Done, from 3 to 4
- Hmmm, a tricky one. See below!
Lvl 4
I'm getting confused between Feats, Abilities and Skills here!
- Strength from 17 to 18, so that's a +4 modifier, And increased the melee bonus from +6 to +7 Is this correct?
- As a fighter bonus feat, I've taken GreatCleave
- Survival from +1 to +2
- Melee bonus from +7 to +8
- Fortitude bonus from +4, +8 for hot/cold environmental damage and suffocation to +5, +9
- Gain 1d10 (min + 2 hit points (10 - 12hp) (1d3+9=12) Woot! So he's from 3 (30) to 15 (42)

= Ideas for Rival orc clans =
The Bhut-ocks are their own worst enemy, which is bad when you eke out your territory surrounded by orcish clans and an expanding human enclave. Although mainly comprised of orcs, they accept the human outcasts and of course the half-orc population that usually occurs afterwards. Haynuus wandered into this clan by chance only relatively recently, after having been disappointed by his treatment by the humans. He liked them as they would paint themselves black with soot when fighting to show that they were all equal.
The clan's first problem was it's tough initiation trial of entry. Many failed, or something worse would happen to them. They were a pathetic group of individuals, that were as much fighting for survival than attempting to get rich by poaching from the merchant caravans that were forced to skirt their territory.
The humans then, would attempt to wipe them out in three ways. The first for revenge. Merchants made good money from importing rare minerals from around the region and would gladly expend part of their income to cease the ravaging of their rich bounties. Mercenaries from as far as the Nordlands would be brought in to hunt down not just the orcish tribes but even human bandits that occasionally got too greedy and whome should know better.
Then there were the warbands comprising of knights and conscripts. They looked really pretty with pennants and dressed uniformly, yet seemed to be the least effective when the numbers started to even up against them.
Finally the occasional crusade would pass by. While the clan wasn't their real target, that would be against an orc warlord or yet another evil magician, they were by their very nature 'in the way' and would occasionally get a battering for it.
Finally there was the orcs. Haynuus' group were too small to be of real consequence to the warlords and his tribe held no real valuable assets. They were a convenient buffer between humans and the orcs, where it was surprisingly easier to negotiate with the 'less civilised' orcs than it was with the humans. They would end up being less aggressive against the orcs simply because they would be wiped out by their larger neighbours. If they did strike against them, they would never return to their original camp and move on further along the side of the mountain range into another area. It really was a case of showing respect to the most brutal. They'd fight their ground when they had to but the orcish numbers were too large to put up a long term resistance. Better to just move on. Run even.
Oh, I've excluded trolins, ogres and troglodytes yet they would just fight everyone to their own eventual extinction one day...

Sounds like you've got it under control, abilities, skills and feats all sounds the same, but it's all good!

You also get +1 more damage because of your increased strength.

The die roll isn't as simple as 1d3+9, because you are far more likely (8 in 10 chances) to get an effective 8 roll. I'll let you away with it this time