Dungeon Master Forum

My wife is into this ecology business in a big way.
I have come to avoid the use of non-renewable
resources as much as possible. Therefore, using
a magic box ( non-renewable resource ) to attack
a muncher ( a very renewable resource ) is against
my principles. My plan in the "No Fireballs" room
is as follows:

****** SPOILER *****

Make sure that every time you enter the room you
get rid of all the munchers. So only two groups can exist at
any one time. (One from entering, one from previous exit).

Before entering the room prepare a Poison Cloud.

Enter the room and search for the munchers that were
generated by entering (or a previosu exit). Wait till they
are next to you. Dispatch them with the poison cloud.
If there are two groups then repeat.

When exiting, you have about 10 seconds to kill the
newly created munchers and then get out. 10 seconds
is generally long enough to kill the newly created munchers
and get out without creating more. That way there will
only be one group when you come back and their position
will be well determined. Usually, however, I take one of
the exits that does not generate new Munchers.

In this way you only use renewable resources. Ecologically
sound.

Please, kill the wildlife in an ecologically friendly way : )

Ah, I’m gratified that I asked for no spoilers…

However, I’ve gotten some feel for this board so chose not to revisit until I’d either solved the no fireballs room or became overwhelmed with screaming frustration. In some ways, I did both. I did solve, if that’s the right word, the muncher issue, if in a much less elegant way than Paul suggested. However, like his wife, I’m a rather green tree hugger (politics had to come up someday ), so I too eschewed the freeze box route simply because it didn’t occur to me. I have none or had none, then anyway as I’ve been dropping items I think aren’t needed. I have left a trail of ven and ful bombs as well as chests and freeze boxes in my wake.

Having learned my lesson from the dragon fight, I KU’d up mightily for the match with the skull knight(s). Retreating down a hallway throwing the detritus from the previously expired knights and then engaging with axe and sword turned out surprisingly well. Perhaps these fellows differ in hp as this one was not at all troublesome.

Taking care of the other matters, I found a useful chest and some water, then girded up my loins for the oiti fight. Again, using my otherwise useless mana for KU potions proved effective and most gratifying. These types which once vexed me before, turned out to be rather easy to handle. I also cast protection spells (blue shield). I even ‘danced’ the last one. I then waded through what was upstairs finding magic useful coming down, but not looking up. I got a bit confused at a transport, but did in the end, finish the crowd off. After a bit of a search aided by magic vision, I found my way to the DDD.

Now it seemed to me that I was in the exact same spot as when I went through NETA implying a way to NETA and the other ways from the DDD, but I saw no path. Proceeding usually through the DDD, I found a way to (with help) to close a pit which didn’t really help as I got transported to somewhere else where I got poisoned then moved again to somewhere else. Finally, I found myself in the dragon lair, but the fight was short lived. I fell through, or got transported out from or something from the lair to the JoW. I haven’t a clue. So I have save games both at the JoW and after bit of worm wrestling (to eat), another at the base of the DDD after KU.

My team is well buffed now with a master in every trade aside from ninja. I’m mixed between again trying the DDD or ROS. I’m a bit distressed that I haven’t found a corbum yet and the pit that I closed (with help) in the DDD turned out to be a passage to trouble. Clearly, I’ll need to hold on to a freeze life box or two. I wish there were a freeze life spell. I’m also unclear on where I am in the game. I mean, I don’t know (and am not asking!) where the DDD is. Is this the end of the ways or only a part way station? I remember in EOB II thinking I’d pretty well done the game when I hit the ant level only to find out that my adventure was maybe 30% done.

I continue to find the game very close to impossible. Maybe it is in the sense that I’ve hashed something beyond repair, but with my two man team now at master level mostly we’re strong enough to take the surprise hit without a restart. I do remain hopelessly lost and in vast admiration for anyone who mapped this. –Paul Cassel

Hint (can't tell if it's non-spoiler): In the DDD, the fighter path is the only one actually signposted. Also, you've been at the right area before, in an earlier DDD encounter. I think you may have even realised it at the time.

In general I think you have a good feel for the dungeon now (the idea of circles, etc) and a good overall strategy that you want to use (doing the four ways followed by a big push at the end) and you have kicked quit a lot of butt in the KU path and are happy with your members. Keep ignoring the hints and ploughing on, it does get easier...no, wait..it doesn't, but in fun ways : )

I entered Ku (aghhh) and found I was in a blind corridor. I found a false wall which took me through to where the small shield is found. I left the shield on the floor to show me where this false entrance would be. Munchers were at me but they werent difficult - just a few lo fireballs. Got to "no fireballs" and vague memories surfaced - like really vague. I think if you get into a side alcove with the magicians between you you can shelter and I think there is a button in each alcove - which may release the knight . I remember a fireball warps around and kills the magicians but I didnt try it out as I was getting pretty tense, was really tired from my trip and its full on at work. Cant go to sleep dreaming munchers and riddles and its only at night I can give it a go at the moment. I think you have to shelter in the alcoves without getting low on mana. Perhaps the knights cant go beyond a certain area....hmmmm I know there is some trick to it.

Yes, now I remember - I was snatching the water/ku flask out of the alcove at DDD - the pit was closed - I think a devil or rockpile triggers it and it opened and I fell downstairs.

So much happens, so fast, and I am just playing saved games from here and there I lose the thread.

I somehow got to the cistern with teleporter screens too - found them easy enough but again, time was against me.

When I played CSB 12+ years ago I went step by step with large maps and hints and knew exactly where I was most the time - with maps! This time I am not using them and only the hint oracle occasionally and its a totally different game - I dont know where I am going unless I have been there many times before, and its like playing DM for the very first time again - thrilling, nauseating, scarey, adrenalin gut wrenching tension and that deep down feeling of "not again, when will I learn" and "this is such an awful feeling to be unable to remember where youve been and how bad I am at it" It tends to lower my self esteem somewhat but hey, I am good at my job!!!

Dont laugh guys, but they have asked me to train as our company webmaster! well, as backup for holidays etc instead of getting in a consultant to do the job. I am flattered but as my husband groaned upon hearing the news "they know not what they are doing...." It cant be that hard!

Slide, did you do the section with the flying key in Neta yet? and the invisible spinner? with the slime throwers? I cant remember how the hell I got there. Talk about being confused....

Also, you may have found the skeleton key, and yes I did find the skeleton staircase (but no key) and from what I understand you shouldnt open this staircase until you have more of the keys - reading some threads either here or in other forums. Or are very experienced since they arent safe places as was in DM.

Hey, I used to ride motorbikes too in my younger days - couldnt afford a car and me and my daughter went everywhere on it. Had a few bad slides but not serious - my hubby did the river run in Loughlan some years ago on his Harley - before my time with him, damn.

Well, I did get all 4 corbums in the distant past but found the final level too difficult even with maps and hints, and serious study. Got fried constantly no matter what as the devils were everywhere all the time and chaos didnt help matters

Perhaps when I seriously sit down to do it 'properly', knowing what I know now, and some more, choose strong champions who can wear armour and dont consume much food and water (yeah right). Hmm, do you think it makes a difference who you choose? Its ok if you know th gam like the masters here, tripping golightly through the downward spiral with ease, and maybe one day so will we too, but right now I need all the hitpoints and magic I can get. Magic is really important, well high mana.

Until later, off to bed, thanks for your reply.

For some reason, it didnt log me in as Denise...in case you didnt know, yes, that is my post above.

Good night dear friends....

Denise wrote: Slide, did you do the section with the flying key in Neta yet? and the invisible spinner? with the slime throwers? I cant remember how the hell I got there. Talk about being confused....

Yes, I did that part. Something is generating slimes now in that room. The last time I was through I had to dodge many of them. I'm guessing at the current rate of generation, that the room is now impassable. I have the might now to clean it out, but if I try, I'll surely run out of supplies. I'm hoping that now that I have the flying key, there is no demand for a return there.

Denise wrote: Also, you may have found the skeleton key, and yes I did find the skeleton staircase (but no key) and from what I understand you shouldnt open this staircase until you have more of the keys - reading some threads either here or in other forums. Or are very experienced since they arent safe places as was in DM.

Too late. I opened the passage which turned out to be neither dangerous or immediately helpful.

Denise wrote: Hey, I used to ride motorbikes too in my younger days - couldnt afford a car and me and my daughter went everywhere on it. Had a few bad slides but not serious - my hubby did the river run in Loughlan some years ago on his Harley - before my time with him, damn.

I originally bought my first due to needing motorized transport, but having no money. However, it has become my way of life. I even worked on a motorbike (motorcycle here) magazine for a while.

Denise wrote:Well, I did get all 4 corbums in the distant past but found the final level too difficult even with maps and hints, and serious study. Got fried constantly no matter what as the devils were everywhere all the time and chaos didnt help matters

Perhaps when I seriously sit down to do it 'properly', knowing what I know now, and some more, choose strong champions who can wear armour and dont consume much food and water (yeah right). Hmm, do you think it makes a difference who you choose? Its ok if you know th gam like the masters here, tripping golightly through the downward spiral with ease, and maybe one day so will we too, but right now I need all the hitpoints and magic I can get. Magic is really important, well high mana.

Paul and others have clearly demonstrated that if the player has skills, the capacity of the PC isn't particularly relevent to game success - at least for the parts we've played. I know that in my DM heyday, I could take any single through to fusion. That memory paid me poorly when I came back to try RTC and got a dose of humiliation playing on half difficult.

I think you can convince yourself of this riight now. Create a new game (after pushing your save games of course) using some random new PC or two. Then try the first room. I did finding it quite easy, yet I was wiped out several times here when I was all new.

I don't know if the game senses strength or not, but I, after finding I could handle one knight, now find myself being attacked by gangs of four. My victory or at least CSB comfort level achievement, was very short lived. -Paul Cassel

Slide: I just notice that I've been not precise enough in one of my previous posts: There are 4 exits from the DDD, each leading onward along one of the 4 pathes, each one requires the special key found earlier along each path. These ongoing pathes are not too long but sometimes hard. All the 4 pathes beyond the DDD lead to a single position: The Corbum pillar, which has 4 alvoves, one in each direction, each alcove holds 1 Corbum. Unfortunately the alcoves are mostly separated by pits, so you have to reapproach it from a different side to get the next Corbum. This you have to do. What you can but don't have to do, is to explore all 4 pathes beyond the Corbum pillar. All of them lead to the top level, where Lord Chaos guards the FulYa pit.

The 2 most tricky parts of the game are the DDD and Chaos' abode. Even with using the hint oracle at every single tile of the DDD it is hard to understand it's mechanix. You just can't go in and shoot everything moving, for you will need the help of your foes to get where you want.
The top level is really difficult. You can take advantage of it's complex structure, provided you understand it and execute the Wrath of God.

I don't know if the game senses strength or not

Rest assured that it does not. As you become stronger
in this way or that, the game will get easier. There is
no feedback whatsoever from your condition to the mechanics
of the game or to the artificial intelligence of the creatures
you find.

The only difficulty feedback existing is when you play RTC, but not during the game. If you choose the "Make New Adventure" option to reimport an existing party into a new dungeon, the engine will adapt monster strength to party strength at the beginning of the game and inform you about that. But even when this is done, no further adaption will be made during the game. Remember, only RTC does this and only when you choose the "Make New Adventure" option before starting to play, and only if you have an overtly strong party.

Lunever -

Yes, you were somewhat vague, but I wasn't asking for specifics. I figured to explore the DDD later on because my team is clearly not up for it yet. To clarify, I'm playing Paul's game, CSB for Windows, not RTC now. I returned to DM after having stumbled upon RTC and thought to give it a go playing DM classic during a time when I'm on call, but not particularly active. RTC led me to this site where I found the legendary CSB ported to Windows - to my amazement! I've heard some mention of editors to inspect the state of the game, but AFAIK, there are no editors for the CSB for Win save games. Am I right on this?

I would like to request a spoiler now - one that will spoil even in the asking.


_______________________*****************___________________

In ROS, working from the VI altar and at the first turn (to the left) there is a false wall which leads to a down stairs. There are passages or a room with many worms. In my game, the passage / room is filled with worms so much so that a poison cloud will kill as many as I choose because they can't retreat. This is a great food supply area, but also I can't explore at all because I can't get the worms to clear out at all. They are completely filling this area.

So my questions: Are they regenerating or is the population static? If re-gen, am I hitting the re-gen trigger by being at the base of the stairs? Or is the re-gen another trigger like my coming down stairs? I have tried advancing beyond the stair which is a non-starter because I get surrounded by wave after wave of worms and get overwhelmed every time.

It looks to me as if this is the same area I went to before to harvest some worms (on a Paul S tip), but I can't be sure. So is this room just a food resource or is it possible to clean it out and seek whatever is in there?

As a note, I'm now in ROS and will try for my fourth time to do this run. I'm having some do with the knights and super mummies. I figured to drop them down the hatches which seems to work all right with the mummies, but when I tried it with the knights and then dropped down my team to rummage through the knight rubbish, I found four very active knights instead of the expected detritus!

Tough guys indeed. -Paul Cassel

How many hints do you want?

1)CSBuild can look into your games.

2)You are not regenerating worms at the bottom of the stairs.
You must have left some worms alive in there!!!!! They are
stepping on a pressure pad that is generating more. Every
20 seconds. And they are probably queued up a bit by now.
There is also a teleporter whisking them away to their death
so that the population does not become infinite. But they
are a prolific species if you leave them to their own devices.

3) You must have forgotten to open the pit on the lower
floor so that the Knights would fall two floors down and
get killed. Falling one floor only wounds them.

Unusually for CSB, there is an unlimited trigger on that level generating worms. It's on the opposite side from the stairs, so creating a gap shouldn't immediately restock thge population...but by the time you clear to the trigger, it would carry on

The good news - you don't need to do this room at all except as a food store - it's a 'haha, you fell down a pit' area, and there is a probably unreachable exit back to the junction of ways

use the place for food, but don't fight against it, do the puzzles back up the stairwells instead!

And you can use CSBuild to view saved games...

edit: lol, I was distracted by a mail and you snuck in an answer...tricky, very tricky...

Yes, I may have left one or two alive simply because I had no reason to worry that I'd eradicated them all. By now they must be regularly mashing on that switch causing an effectively infinite supply of food. This reminds me of the elegance of the game's programming and thought. I've never again met a game which was so complete in its universe.

I didn't think to look for a double trap door. After the worms, I went upstairs to play the knife game and then encountered the rocks and knights. Feeling very clever, I used the lever on them only to be incredibly suprised at my idea not working perfectly. If the dropped knights are wounded, they're not wounded enough!

Thanks both for the info. Maybe someday I'll have a look inside the works with CSBuild. Right now I'm rather enjoying being back on the explore route. I hit a place with many false walls, but fell or transported out of there or something so didn't get very far. -Paul

The only thing I worry about is this: The worms are
multiplying and being teleported away to their death.
They get transported to 07(30,21). There they must
drop Worm Riunds. I assume this happens when they
get teleported to a place that does not support their
species. Am I right about this?

If so, Worm Rounds are piling up. Deeper and deeper.
Eventually they will exceed the capability of the runtime
engine to count them. That could happen in aless than 44
hours, I compute. Then something will happen that
very seldom happens in CSBwin; the code to discard
excessive objects will be activated. This code is almost
completely untested in real life.

I wish you luck. But it does provide a mechanism for me
to test the code a bit better. I'll install a couple of these with
Skeletons, Worms, Dragons, Antmen, and such that drop items.
Then it will take less than 44 hours to run a test.

I didn't try with CSBwin, but I actually tested this code (with predefined object shooters) with PC DM, it worked fine, non important items were disappearing each time the shooter would create a new object. But I managed this effect quite quickly, not in 44 hours (I know, your calculations are based on a 20 second monster generation loop, so it's 8000 worms, 16000 worm rounds?)

Yes, I know it worked with Atari CSB, too. I used to hoard
items at Save Haven. Then I would wander off to DDD to
try my luck one more time and when I came back they were gone!
I was very frustrated. I tried spreading them out between many
rooms. I tried everything I could think of. I could not figure it
out. I figured it was a bug. Until I translated the code.

The Atari algorithm was, in my estimation, ugly. I wanted to
improve it. I think I did improve it. But the downside is that
the code is very raw and not well tested.

The Atari simply went from one cell to the next, avoiding the
player's level if possible, cleaning out everything that was not
important. If there was only one Worm Round in the entire
dungeon it could disappear. I tried to look around the dungeon
to see if there were any particular items in great surplus. Like
there might be 1000 of those shields that Skeletons drop. I would
get rid of things basing the priority on their abundance and lack
of value. I even let the user define the value in the config.txt.
But I got rid of that because it seemed too complicated to be
useful or explainable.

Let's see. Where were we. Ah yes, back at Junction with lot's of stuff and dragon steaks. First some unloading. Kept only one chest full of steaks with me, figured that'll be enough for almost two full bars of food for everyone.

I still had to obtain the key from Dain, so onwards. From Junction I appeared right at the fireball room. How convenient since I left Dain here last time. Snatch key and vorbal blade from alcove. Blasted those darn Rives and in the process caught one of the smaller fireballs at the beginning of room. Ouch. Blasted the door open and arrived at Prove you're a wizard.

I stopped before the obvious plate, killed the Couatl behind the iron door with Des Vens. Slept mana full. I remembered what to do at the eye - so I prepared to do that the moment I step on the plate. Mistake. I wanted to blast those Couatls that would free right there... But instead I teleported myself away.

Oh well. Journey onwards. Bridge. Hit the button, jump into teleporter. End up back near bridge. Hmm. Retry, hit the button and this time do the puzzle right. Re-orient myself. Need winged key. Ok. Open stairs, go down, find myself at my favourite pit. Back up. Very carefull exploration, make sure not to fall in pits whenever fighting with Couatls.

Hit the trio of tiny switches. Move couple steps, and end up completely surrounded by Couatls. Expend all mana to blast them, can't do all! More coming! Retreat! Retreat! Down the nearest pit. Cistern.

After a nice rest, make my way back to the stairs I just opened avoiding Cistern generators as best as I can. (Hug the wall, last time that didn't produce any, so apparently that's pretty safe)

Mop up the Couatl room, but don't see any way to the key... Hmm. A suspicious pressure pad. Throw a Zo Kath Ra on it and voila. Press right left and grab the key. Open the Winged key hole and grab the Ra key and Ruby key.

I have now all three keys (Ku being used already, Ros done in roundabout way). Onto DDD right after buying Serpent Staff and Speed Boots. Up at the DDD find out that last time I was here I forgot to open the pit at Fighters Charge! Doh! So I need to fight my way through the flames onto the other side to open it. Rested generate a demon and take hard left after the pit closes. Kill the flame and find out that I can't get through the gate. Doh.

Try #2. Kill previous demon, generate a new one. This time I stand on the visible pressure pad and hold my ground since I remember stepping to the stairs drops me. Kill the demon so he won't fireball me. Look around and see a grated door with fireballs exploding on it. Door with a button. Lo Zo followed by few Mon Ful Ir. Figured out the pit arrangement by help of another Zo Kath Ra. So far so good.

Picked the lock and heard door open, so I guess it worked. Exchanged valuables and got a key. Used the key on level below and to my delight find out that it opened my way to the flame I just killed. Spent some gold keys and grabbed equipment. Opened Dain, grabbed crown and expecting some more fun found myself at the Corbum pillar. Awww. Oh well. Snatch and Grab and back to DDD the way I came here.

Up the stairs to play with Hellhounds. Found my way through the endless corridor and got some more equipment. Down by the Ros blocking pit, down, and find myself delighted to be in one of my favourite areas. The skeleton puzzle. Exchanged another gold key for helm of Ra and zapped the skelly. Showed some Zo Kath Ra to the eye which didn't seem to do much of anything. Oh well.

Exchange alot of pain for a shield and spend another gold key. Unfortunately randomizer didn't feel like giving me an item this time and only got a Gor coin.

Through the Corridor of Fire, which I really hate... Finally arrive at the Corbum pillar. Oh jeez. I remembered that this was hard one, but it's being blasted by constant barrage of fireballs... Darn.

After some fireshielding... Maybe a bit excessive, but...


Do your worst! Mwahahahahaaa!

Proceed to ignore fireballs and snatch the Corbum. Snatch some more gear below.

So. Here we are. 4 Corbums collected, ready to take on the last level... Though I forgot to take two of the corbums with me. Have to divert to Junction to pick them up. Oops...

Suggestions on through which path to ascend?

Hmm, just read Toni's last post; the last times I played CSB it was in RTC. Can't remember any fireball shooter at the Corbum pillar. Is there a shooter supposed to be? If so where? If so, is it missing in RTC or just in my memory?

Slide: The triggers for the worm generator at the bottom level of Ros are at some (but not all) of the cross-sections. So if you are careful, you can tread there without generating a single worm. That way, it is still a source of infinite food, but completely under your control. There are a very few items to be found there, but they do not have much use, and no use if you are already equipped with the stuff from Ku. There is also an illusionary wall hiding the teleporter to the JoW.

Lunever,

If you read back in this thread, a worm set I left in this area on another transit through are the Adam and Eve of this worm room. They are the ones generating the other worms which are now covering (AFAIK) the entire room. I dropped down into this room from above (an open pit) to see what I could see and it was worms for as far as my game vision went. My guess is that now there are in infinite supply. As soon as I kill one set, the entire group shifts toward me leaving the re-gen tile open which then gens another set making for a full house again.

I had a good laugh at myself again. I read Toni's latest narrative although I'd been avoiding the others (after reading the first line) to keep myself away from spoilers. Since even a close reading left me entirely baffled as to where his game was or what it was up to, I guess my fear of spoiler / walk through was somewhat unnecessary.

Slide: I have been understanding that in your current game the worms are self-respawning and almost impossible to stop now. My remark was of rather general nature, I know it is hardly aplicable to your current savegame. Lucky you, there is nothing important the worm legons of Ros guard, so you won't have a problem with them.

The constant rustling and yells of 'get over to your side of the passageways' from down below might keep you awake...

nothing important the worm legons of Ros guard

Unless, of course, you ................

Oooops. That would be a spoiler, would it not?

Every time I go to the worm halls at Ros vi there are only 2 sets ever. I have left a set, come back but still only 1 or 2 sets and even when I jump on the worm generators, it takes about 3 minutes of searching to finally find a single pair. So Slide, we are having opposite experiences.

Also, I had absolutely no problems with the super mummies and deth nights at Ros (?). Where the daggers in the wall come out. Strange, it was a walk in the park. However.....

I got slaughtered time after time where I come through the invisible walls, munchers waiting, I dash through to No fireballs and shelter in the alcoveat the left with the 2 red cross buttons. I successfully killed a few magicians throwing poison clouds across to where they were waiting - on my side my missiles went to them and killed - however on their side their missles went out nto the hall and back to the door in the middle where lurks the deth night. I walked out 2 steps and behind a wizard appeared and we had a hard fight - I then rushed back to my alcove sanctuary and pressed the buttons - nothing happened, at least so I thought as a wizard appeared, I used the cross of neta to subdue him and eventually hack it to death. I wondered why it didnt teleport or move away from the cross.

I surely found out once it died!!!! The deth night was waiting for me and he was a super monster. I was pumped up with Ku potions, fireballs, poison bombs, it literally ripped me up totally, killed poor Petal in what seemed seconds then started on Plague - mana expended, I threw everything I could at the deth - bones, keys, and died horribly.

You had an easy time here - I died, you had a hardertime with the super mummies and knights - I found them really easy. My champions are up to =wizards, <priests, expert fighters and journeyman ninjas.

This all upset me somewhat - sounds silly I know, but it did. I am reluctant now to go back there to be stupidly slaughtered again.

I also have yet to find ONE DDD key, or skeleton key that everyone keeps going on about - talk about despondent!

I never thought of using zo kath ra for anything either but reading the previous threads, its a useful thing to open things with etc.

I find it very difficult to keep pumped up with ku potions too - I only have 4 flasks, 2 with water, 2 with heal stuff.

Oh yes guys.....hmmmm....I saved the game, and fell down to surrender your possessions! I waited many seconds, glanced at the hopeful exit but still blank wall; put in a worm round, nothing, put in a gor coin, nope, put in a poison bomb, a ful bomb, in fact put everything I possessed in and still the way didnt open until I was absolutely naked again.....didnt bother going upstairs to see it at least a flask had been placed at supplies for the quick.

I tried again, leaving a lot of my objects at the top of the pit, and lo and behold, it stripped me bare again. I therefore have reached the conclusion that for me at least, this surrender pit means just that - surrender all your possessions - and rescue perhaps 3 items in total upstairs from say, 30! All you have is your magic for the flying eyes who are waiting for you in force, like they know youre naked, without any possessions, and not just 2, but a corridor swarming with them. Thanks be for those stairs. They only swarm when I come out with nothing from that pit too.

I am thinking that the dragon will be a doddle after all this....

Slide - you are miles ahead of me, but I have been really busy with my work life at the moment, and this CSB takes time, and for me, emotional energy - I take it personally when I cant solve, progress, get fried constantly. But at least I dont seem to have a problem with water anymore - 6 waterskins and 2 flasks - over the top perhaps but I just wont forget how hard it was to achieve ealier in the game.

Remember not too long ago - we were worried about trying to even complete the first few minutes of the game??? I guess we have moved on from that point to just as frustrating another point, and I think this is the concept of the game!

This game isnt meant to satisfy like DM did, its creator must have decided that those who completed DM, explored all its predictability, for it is once you have done it, it is (hence the 30 ? minute trips from start to finish etc). CSB is meant to forever stimulate those who successfully achieved DM, take nothing for granted, you want a 'rush', here it is - all the time. I guess its the ultimate game.

Well, I may give it another try shortly, DM rerun is looking good actully - nice and predictable and I really do enjoy the instalments posted here.

Each time I go back to neta to find a key, there isnt any....and here is only one lonely tree left in the room - I found a false wall in this room which leads downstairs to a huge room - with 1 worm in it - found a chest with the usual in it, food and freeze boxes (I think) and a way out to the ways again but couldnt generate any more worms. I have an assortment of keys, turquise, gold, A and B, iron, onyx, not sure about emerald, and lockpicks but nothing works in any locks I come across.

*SPOILER*SURRENDER YOUR POSSESSIONS

Denise, you seem to be having a lot of trouble with the Surrender your possessions pit, so here's a hint. The wall opens once you have removed an item of clothing that you found in the very first room.

Once you've determined what it is, don't ever wear it again, and the wall will remain open...

Denise: Turquoise Key is the key you need from Neta.




The Surrender Your Possessions puzzle is extremely deviously designed.
Here's some hints that get progressively more spoily.

MIDLY SPOILY: *** Think about in which order you remove your items? What if you reversed the order? ***
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SOMEWHAT SPOILY: *** Which items of clothes would you remove last? Next time start with the footwear of all your champions, instead of helmets. ***
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VERY SPOILY: *** The puzzle reacts to only one item type. Usually that item is among the last you remove, which is why the puzzle works. See previous hints to determine what it exactly is. ***
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EXTREMELY SPOILY! CAN'T BE MORE SPOILY! ******* How about those shiny lether boots? Remember that there is about 3 second delay between putting down the item and wall opening.
Spoily animation on how to "solve" the puzzle
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The boots??????? you gotta be kidding me?????? LMAO ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

You guys are absolutely beautiful!!!! and I have come to the conclusion there isnt any such thing as ****spoilers***** any more, since you all know the stuff, and I wont if you dont *spoil* me LOL!!!

The tourquise key is the Neta key to the DDD?


How about that super deth night???

Thanks so much....you made my evening! (I told you I wasnt the brightest pebble on the beach - but I seem to hae other qualities to compensate)...

Knights are immune to magic, so you are best using your precious time before it slices and dices you to throw as much melee damage its way as possible - one fighter using a heavy melee, backed up by a fast punch/stab from the other perhaps?

And you don't need to use valuable flasks for water - especially if you have that many water skins - make them all health potions! Have them as close to your character's mouths too, for quick refuel in a tight corner. Knights are fast attackers, so every little helps if you have no manouvering room

Denise,

We can, perhaps, dismiss our different problem areas as our playing styles, but we can’t dismiss worm generation. Clearly your game is working differently from mine. I’m playing Paul’s game, CSBWin 9.6. Are you too? If so, the randomness of the events here includes random generation of dungeon characteristics. I can come to no alternative theory.

KU: There are three, not two cross buttons in that alcove. You need press two. If you press the third, it’s fatal – or was to me when I tried.

Give up possessions: curious how we could conclude so wrongly. I never put on those boots so when I used the worm slice to escape, I didn’t need to use anything in reality, but we both figured it was worm activated.

I’m concerned about that key in NETA in your game. Of course it may be within that tree thing, but mine sure wasn’t. My key was playing an onanistic game of squash in the room before the tree slime room. It was obviously flying in front of my team when we entered the room – you can’t miss it. Unless this is a random seed, then I think you have serious trouble here. Have you searched that room before the trees? It may be on the floor there.

Please tell me how you easily dispatched those skull knights in ROS with such casual ease! I suppose I could do the stair fight with them. That is, jump up or down stairs, heal / potion up, then jump down for a few rounds and so forth. This is getting a bit tiresome, though. If you’ve found an effective spell, I’d like to know what it is. They, unlike almost everything else, don’t seem to be much bothered by poison clouds.

My skel key came from the dead body of a giggler. I suspect it’s a random seed which you may never find unless you kill the specific pest holding the key. Maybe not – perhaps it was on the floor and he picked it up. I have no idea as these CSB pests are more annoying than DM ones albeit, slower. They, like little wiz’s, can transport too.

I have now collected a variety of seemingly useless, but apparently valuable merchandise. I mean I can’t use them, but suspect they can and need be used somewhere. I have three jeweled keys including two onyx ones (?), a chest and a half of gold coins, many keys of b (joke?), iron keys, at least one gold key and gosh knows what else. I suspect I needed to do that wizard bridge in DAIN to find the last jeweled key. I spent little time at that puzzle before being zinged or zwanged to somewhere else where I got distracted and haven’t attempted it again.

I have some good news to encourage you. I chose to try a hitherto unexplored passage in ROS. It is the pit and grate door passage in between the false wall leading to the worm room and the door leading to the super mummies / skul knights area. I addressed this puzzle and proceeded along the slowly revealed pathway. This turned into a very DM-like linear exploration complete with challenging, but solvable monsters all the way to the DDD. At one point, there is a room full of false walls also full of minor dragons. In all, we got about 5 dragons, but they are quite easy compared to the ones we found already. It was by far the most satisfactory portion of the entire game so far. If you choose this route, be sure to save when you get to the room with many pits, then jump down a pit to see where you are. This should give you an idea how you can transport all those valuable dragon steaks to the safe haven.

I think we are both somewhat trapped by this game; frustrated by both its resemblance to DM and its infuriating differences. I leave a failed game sure I’ll never try this one again only to fire it up in a few hours. I think we’ll need either to finish (very unlikely) or to proceed to a definite stop point like if we have all the corba, but can’t do the push through as you did a dozen or so years ago. I would surely like at least one corbum before I resign. I may work on that today if I get done in court early (I’m a mediator, not a litigant). –Paul Cassel, suffering in the desert southwest.

How DM/CSB works - it only keeps levels directly above and below where a player is active in a game...and also they seem to be sped up compared to what the player experiences
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o, if you spend a long time on the second lowest level, then the worms/dragon in the basement move around. If you move further afield, then they don't...so won't generate any more of their kind

A small thing, but you can see how it's produced such a difference now. This movement at an increased speed has produced a worm-only zone for your game, slide.

In RTC, you won't find this...all levels are always active.