Dungeon Master Forum

The "easy fix" for this inconsistency is to never allow a single monster to be on the sides of a tile, always in the middle. Likewise, never allow a missile to go past the party even if everyone is on the other side.
It was a balance issue anyway, as it made odd party sizes much harder than even sizes.

Agreed. This issue was generally the result of creatures that appear in groups of 2 or 4, but after killing off some of them, it would usually take a few turns before they would get around to centering, but sometimes they wouldn't. Forcing them to center, or having ranged spells hit either side should work.

One thing I was thinking about with regard to DM, is that there is a minor limitation in the interface design that I have always worked around to deal with this issue. I'm speaking of the inability to change party order on the top of the screen which corresponds to the runecaster, and the fact that the character tabs in the runecaster are not color coded to match the characters. My way of dealing with this, even going back to my first playthrough of DM, was to resurrect/reincarnate characters in a specific order such as 1&2 as fighters, and 3&4 as ranged/magic characters, with the party arranged as follows. This made it easier for my feeble brain to keep track of each character's position in the runecaster and party formation in the heat of battle.

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I rarely rearranged the party except to swap front/rear, or temporarily move the one character that had mana remaining to an attack position when in a desperate situation, but I would always move them right back after the battle if I survived.

In a user made dungeon I have been playing recently, I started with characters in a random order which has been more cumbersome as I find that I have trouble keeping track of who is where. Before I can begin to cast a spell at a creature that is on one side of a corridor, there are added steps:

1. Look at the color of the characters in the party formation to find one on the corresponding side
2. Look for the corresponding color at the top of the screen to see if they have any mana and what their runecaster position is
3. Select the corresponding character name in the runecaster

I think that this could be improved, such as:

1. Color coding the runecaster tabs
2. Making it possible to rearrange the character order on the top of the screen
3. Use the party formation icons rather than tabs to select a character for the runecaster
4. Replace the runecaster tabs with 2x2 color coded buttons that are in the same positions as the party formation

I don't know how the spell casting system and interface are going to work in LoG, but from watching the first gameplay video, I notice:

1. The attack buttons are probably in the same order as party formation; there is no set of party formation icons, and I'm not sure if that means there is no indication of attack direction such as in DM when a party member turns.
2. I'm not sure how you know who's attack button belongs to who without opening inventory (since the characters are not color coded, and the buttons not named. Perhaps 1&2 are in the front, 3&4 are in the rear as in my DM play style.
3. The runecaster is not visible unless in use
4. A "Stonekeep" like system of requiring a wand or staff in hand for spellcasting may be in use
5. Attacking with a magic staff opens the runecaster
6. I can't tell if it is possible to "pre-load" spells for one or more characters, as can be performed in DM
7. I can't tell if it is possible to use a two handed ranged weapon and perform spellcasting with the same character

One last thing...it seems to me that in DM, the ranged weapons eventually become insufficiently effective later in the dungeon, and there seems to be no ranged/ninja weapon to combat immaterial creatures, adding to the problem; Is this the general consensus? If so, will ranged weapons effectiveness or type in LoG scale such that they will be effective throughout the entire game?

Cheers!

Ranged attacks are different from melee attacks. Not being able to attack diagonally with ranged weapons tactically means a) in a two or one man team you can avoid enemy spellcasting if you are quick enough at dodging, and b) you can intelligently target powerful foes behind a weaker one by firing passed the weaker one, using it as a shield. These are great thigns in DM that will not be possible with your method.

The easiest way to have party order mean nothing for spellcasting or ranged attack is to have such attacks fire centrally fro mthe party no matter the caster and explode in the centre tile, harming everyone for a ranged attack or randomly the first person in a ranged.

a) is a balance issue that is plaguing the three-man parties and trivializing undermanned content, and exactly my point. b) is very anecdotic because it lasts only a couple seconds before the "weak" monster gets in proper position blocking your own shots, and the principle can be replicated in other ways.

From a gameplay point of view, this is a deal I'm ready to make: being unable to dodge & shield monsters but in exchange not having to endure painful party formation changes.

Which makes me think, if you design properly a gui for party position swaps that works, then by all means

So far we haven't seen any quarter tile monsters in Grimrock. Perhaps they all take up the entire tile? If so, this discussion is moot.

petri says: August 24, 2011 at 18:33 (From the LoG blog)

"Yes, multiple smaller monsters can be in a single tile."

I don't have time to read both places. I stand corrected.

Crash. wrote:I don't know how the spell casting system and interface are going to work in LoG, but from watching the first gameplay video, I notice:
1. The attack buttons are probably in the same order as party formation; there is no set of party formation icons, and I'm not sure if that means there is no indication of attack direction such as in DM when a party member turns.
2. I'm not sure how you know who's attack button belongs to who without opening inventory (since the characters are not color coded, and the buttons not named. Perhaps 1&2 are in the front, 3&4 are in the rear as in my DM play style.
3. The runecaster is not visible unless in use
4. A "Stonekeep" like system of requiring a wand or staff in hand for spellcasting may be in use
5. Attacking with a magic staff opens the runecaster
6. I can't tell if it is possible to "pre-load" spells for one or more characters, as can be performed in DM
7. I can't tell if it is possible to use a two handed ranged weapon and perform spellcasting with the same character

1. Attack buttons are in the same order as party members (i.e. the order changes when marching order changes). Character's don't turn but you can change party formation.
2. The ordering of character portraits and attack button reflects the changes in party formation so we don't need color coding. The first two portraits are in front. We are considering moving the portraits into 2x2 grid but single row looks visually better and covers less important screen estate (2x2 is higher so it could cover some wall features such as hidden buttons)
3-5. Correct
6. Yes, it's possible to memorize spells for each character.
7. Two-handed weapons and spellcasting does not mix together, however there are very few two-handed missile weapons in LoG, the bow being the only one if I recall correctly.

Crash. wrote:will ranged weapons effectiveness or type in LoG scale such that they will be effective throughout the entire game?

Yep!

A bit late to the party, but just wanted to say this game is looking incredible! Can't wait to play it.

Grimrock magic system explained, check it out!
http://www.grimrock.net/2011/10/14/magic-and-runes/

Ooh, looks interesting . I can't remember whether this was already answered somewhere but will it be possible to ready a spell (ie enter the runes but not actually cast it yet) in preparation to, say, hurl a Fireball at whatever the hell is making those scary-sounding footsteps just around the corner? I would imagine this is already the case though - have the whole party prepare some kind of nuke spell and then just spam all four spells at once when the mob comes round the corner .

"6. Yes, it's possible to memorize spells for each character."

See, this is what happens when I make forum posts on a Friday evening after a week of doing extra hours at work .

I'm just the resident LoG obsessive compulsive person, and try to point out any bits that I remember so Petri H has more time to work on LoG

Crash. wrote:I'm just the resident LoG obsessive compulsive person, and try to point out any bits that I remember so Petri H has more time to work on LoG

Thanks, Crash!

Another latecomer to the party, but what a party it seems to be! Ready to buy.

Just wanted to inform you guys that we just passed a major milestone in the project: Legend of Grimrock is now in alpha! This means that we can now play the game from beginning to end. So, all major features and all dungeon levels are now in place and we can start tweaking and polishing stuff and make the game really shine. Check out the latest blog post at http://www.grimrock.net for more info!

So I saw on facebook/the blog. Forgive me for being lazy and congratulating you here instead of there! Congratulations!


As the playtester who just made it through, in your unbiased opinion how is it looking/feeling/playing right now?

I am interested in how this game is sized compared to Dungeon Master, and/or how long you think it may take for those unfamiliar with the game to get through it. Thanks!

Oooh, congrats! My fingers are tingling!

beowuuf wrote:So I saw on facebook/the blog. Forgive me for being lazy and congratulating you here instead of there! Congratulations!
As the playtester who just made it through, in your unbiased opinion how is it looking/feeling/playing right now?

Thanks! It's been a long road from DM2000 and EFDM to here but we are finally getting closer to releasing this beast.

You know, it's really really hard for me to judge how the game feels because I've been working on it so intensely for the past months, but I'm confident that we're on the right path. The first part of the game feels already quite polished and close to shippable quality but some parts, especially in the middle still need more love. The best thing is that the core mechanics, combat, spellcasting and puzzles work throughout the game solidly (and we even have a new game mechanic that we'd like to add). Maybe the biggest things bugging me during the play test were that some areas felt too combat heavy (fortunately this is pretty easy to fix by just removing monsters) and the lack of balance in some things, like characters consuming food too quickly. It's really good that we can start fixing these things already before beta. Overall I'm happy, relieved and sure that we can do this.

Sounds overwhelmingly positive!

Woo, this does sound very good indeed. One thing I'm curious about (and can understand if you can't talk about it), is how you've funded the development of the game?

Crash. wrote:I am interested in how this game is sized compared to Dungeon Master, and/or how long you think it may take for those unfamiliar with the game to get through it. Thanks!

I would say that it's roughly the same size but there's probably more optional content (secrets) in LoG than in DM. As for how long it takes for someone unfamiliar to finish the game, it really depends on how long you're stuck on some of the more difficult puzzles and whether you use the power of Google to solve them Obviously if you have played the old masterpieces it helps a lot because you have the right state of mind.

Gambit37 wrote:Woo, this does sound very good indeed. One thing I'm curious about (and can understand if you can't talk about it), is how you've funded the development of the game?

It's not a big secret. We are 100% self-funded meaning that we put in some money ourselves to get us started and did 3-4 months worth of subcontracting work for other finnish game development studios before starting to work on LoG. We have tried to keep our costs down by buying the cheapest furniture etc. and paying ourselves only minimal salaries. So let's hope that this all pays off in the end!

Excellent, sounds like you're "keeping it real" and not swanning off to the Bahamas with a big injection of VC money, lol!

I'm sure this will pay off in the end, I for one have it on my list of games to buy. You have stiff competition though: Skyrim is out next week, and that's a LOT of game!

Gambit37 wrote:Excellent, sounds like you're "keeping it real" and not swanning off to the Bahamas with a big injection of VC money, lol!

I'm sure this will pay off in the end, I for one have it on my list of games to buy. You have stiff competition though: Skyrim is out next week, and that's a LOT of game!

Yeah, I know. The good thing is that we don't have to sell millions to break even.

yeah but we'll buy both, don't worry
congrats Petri !

linflas wrote:yeah but we'll buy both, don't worry
congrats Petri !

I'm certain that Skyrim won't have any dungeons that are 1% as enjoyable as Grimrock.

Holy crap!!! This game looks PHENOMENAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Never mind what I said, THIS is Dungeon Master III!!!!!!!!!!!!