What the... Snow in June, then in August!

[Seriously Unserious]

"If you don't believe the experts about what CO2 in the atmosphere does to planetary temperatures just take a look at Venus. It's about the same size as Earth. It's about the same Mass as Earth."

that's not a good example though SU, we're nothing like Venus. if Venus was in our orbit, it'd be like the earth.

Then why is it that Venus is hotter then Mercury? No it's more then just distance form sun that determines the heat of Venus, its the 98% CO2 atmosphere that does that. The heat enters and can't escape so Venus just keeps getting hotter and hotter, in a self perpetuating greenhouse effect.

Also, if distance from the sun was the only major determinant of temperature and climate, then why is it that the average surface temperature of the moon is -30 Celsius? The moon is the same distance from the sun as Earth is, it is the Earth's moon after all.

I think you might have missed this part of my post:

Yet average surface temperatures on Venus are about 480 degrees (hotter even then Mercury average surface temperatures of 166.86 degrees, which is much, much closer to the sun then Venus is)

In other words, between Venus and Mercury, the cooler planet is Mercury, which is the closest planet to the sun, so if distance from sun is the determinant for temperature and climate, and not atmospere, then how it this? How can a planet further from the sun be hotter then a planet closer to the sun? Explain that, because it does not make any sense to me unless atmospheric composition does play a major role.

Ask any astronomer, chemist, physicist, geologist, meteorologist, or climatologist about this and they will all give you the same answer, atmosphere does play a huge role in planetary weather and climate.

Ask any of the above why Venus is so much hotter, on average, then Mercury and you'll get the same answer, greenhouse effect, Venus has a thick atmosphere that's mostly greenhouse gasses that traps the heat, whereas Mercury's atmosphere is very thin so it provide very little protection from gaining or losing heat.

Here's the data on a few websites for interested readers to look up for themselves:
http://www.digipac.ca/chemical/mtom/con ... sfacts.htm has a comparison of earth, the moon, and mars
http://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/com ... ect1=VenusThis is a great site, you can compare any 2 planets in our solar system to each other.
http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space ... d_to_Earthcomparison of earth and venus
http://planets.findthedata.org/compare/ ... y-vs-Venushere's another good site for comparing 2 planets and seeing their statistics.
http://planets.findthedata.org/compare/ ... th-vs-Marshere's a comparison of the 4 rocky planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth, and Mars), using the site above.

[Chaos-Shaman]

we've got a lot of rain and cloud coming, it does not help the garden, it wants sun. my tomatoes started to get mold spots, brown spots on its leaves. just not enough sun. flowers are fairing better. i actually like these cloudy days. the corn fields are only 1 foot, they are usually 3 feet by now, so this year is going to be a late one, hope the frost holds off until October and it's sunny for all of August and September.

[Chaos-Shaman]

i would assume that it would be the spin and speed of spin/tilt/distance from sun/orbital path/chemical composition/and maybe a giant rock hit it in the past, we don't know why Venus is the way it is exactly, but we do know it wasn't man made. how it got that way we still don't know.

[Seriously Unserious]

I know Venus is the way it is due to natural processes. The reason I brought it up is that it's a great example of the sort of process that we can trigger on Earth if we keep raising the levels of greenhouse gasses, and as an example of just how much of an effect they can have on planetary climates. Now you have to admit that a planed further from the sun being hotter then a planet closer to the sun is a pretty extreme situation. There's only one way that can happen with small rocky planets, greenhouse effect due to atmospheric conditions.

Canada Day weekend was HOT and sunny in the Vancouver area. We were flirting with if not breaking temperature records. It's forecast to be hot and sunny for the next 2 weeks at least, with scarcely a drop of rain in sight. It's looking like the summer weather pattern is starting a couple of weeks early here this year.

[Ameena]

I had a look on the Wiki page for Venus and it says that it may ahve had oceans in the past and generally been much more similar to Earth, but eventually this all evaporated and caused a "runaway greenhouse effect", resulting in the super-high-CO2 atmosphere the planet is stuck with now.

[Chaos-Shaman]

that is a big MAY Ameena. we actually have nothing we can compare this celestial body earth with that would indicate our future with any certainty. if we take a lesson from nature, it's very destructive, it cares not for anything. animals destroy all around them, you don't see them planning how to do it or worrying what is going to happen, nature does that on its own. it will be nature that decides when we parish from this planet, nature will either let us expand or be destroyed, it won't be us in control, i can promise that we'll be doing what nature tells us to do, not the other way around. i find it disturbing that people think we have control over the planet, like we're the ones who control nature. from my experience, we're nothing at all, just passing by like all other life forms. the day we think we're above nature will be the day we become gods and that's not likely. does it even occur to people that we're doing what we were meant to do? as nature has planned us to be. to me, that's is exactly what we're doing, we are nothing, just doing as we're suppose to do, it's our destiny. the difference is that some dude picked up a stick and started doing simple math, then someone ate the right plant and from there our brain grew, maybe as a tumor at first. math is nature for sure, but language is the destructor and builder derived from math. if you are interested in that kind of thought process i suggest you check out Terrence Mckennas works.

[Ameena]

Um. You speak of Nature as though we're somehow separate from it. We're not. We're part of it, and it's part of us, just the way it is with everything else that exists. And as far as I see it, Nature doesn't "plan" anything...it just is. Stuff generally evolves and changes and keeps in balance with everything else...and stuff which upsets that balance for a while probably ends up eventually removed from the system as the balance swings back again. We're making the climate change at a faster rate than it was already changing, so the effects of that will come along faster. If they destroy us (or enough of us that there aren't enough left to continue messing with things...at least not for a very long time), everything that's left on the planet will keep going, and changing, and eventually maybe some other species will evolve to the extent that we did, the extent at which they can think they control everything...until their time runs out too. And so on until Sol dies and the planet gets wiped out .

[Seriously Unserious]

i find it disturbing that people think we have control over the planet, like we're the ones who control nature. from my experience, we're nothing at all, just passing by like all other life forms.

In addition to what Ameena said in her reply, I'll add that if you think this that you've obviously forgotten about one small little thing. It's called the atomic bomb. We have enough of those to destroy all live on Earth dozens of times over. That's even after all this disarmament that's been going on between Russia and the USA for the past few decades. Now if that isn't controlling nature then I have no idea what is.

How about central heating, the use of fire, air conditioning, fans, humidifiers, dehumidifiers, etc. These are all devices that we use to control the environment (a part of nature) at least in small limited ways in a localized area such as a single building, or room. Oh, yeah, and did I mention dams? Dykes, flood boxes? retaining walls? These are all also engineering features used to control the environment, each in their own way. We don't yet know how to control all aspects of the environment around us, or nature, but we do exercise some control over it. All living organisms exercise control over nature to a greater or lesser degree, but humans have definitely found ways to control our environment in ways and to a degree that no other organism can.

For example beavers build dams, that creates an artificial pond. Humans build massive concrete dams that can create massive lakes kilometers long.
Both are a form of control over nature, but what we do is on a much larger scale then whet beavers can do.

[Ameena]

I saw a video once, online (can't remember where and couldn't find it just now after a brief, experimental Google), which showed what would happen if humans just disappeared. I can recall that London (well, most of Kent, I think) would revert to being a swamp...I can't remember much about what it said about other parts of the world but that's probably because I don't live too near any of them . Anyway, it'd take something like 500,000 years for every trace of us to disappear. Geologicaly/cosmically speaking, that's practically nothing.

[Chaos-Shaman]

makes sense to me beowuuf. i was saying that nobody has spent a moment to look into whether we are doing what we are suppose to do or not. i see it as natural. we're the only ones that produce guilt. it's what happens when we think too hard

[Chaos-Shaman]

We have enough of those to destroy all live on Earth dozens of times over. That's even after all this disarmament that's been going on between Russia and the USA for the past few decades. Now if that isn't controlling nature then I have no idea what is.

who says we're not suppose to do that, life will continue afterwards whether we use nukes or not. picture it as how a virus works, it eventually runs its course. it is up to us to save us, not the world. humans are affraid to die, so a threat like CO2 produces primitive reponses of survival, and i see a lot of frightened people out there, most everyone actually, which is why we see the youth worried about our planet, the older folks just care about getting money, the younger ones will learn how life is going to get difficult when they need more and more of it and will change their minds. they're not going to buy into anything and will go back to old ways when they discover why we can't afford to change our pattern without a big change in lifestyle. i do not see this happening. as soon as they can't afford to pay for their cell phones, they'll change their minds fast enough, i know this, it's nature.

i enjoy this enlightened talk, i hope it doesn't get deleted due to slightly off topic responses. when topics mingle, new ideas and some background can aid in creation instead of being so square and straight which offers little adventure and hinders progressive ideas. hard to go forward that way, and it's not my style, i prefer outside the box, it's more fun for one.

[Chaos-Shaman]

Anyway, it'd take something like 500,000 years for every trace of us to disappear. Geologicaly/cosmically speaking, that's practically nothing.

exactly

[Seriously Unserious]

We have enough of those to destroy all live on Earth dozens of times over. That's even after all this disarmament that's been going on between Russia and the USA for the past few decades. Now if that isn't controlling nature then I have no idea what is.

who says we're not suppose to do that, life will continue afterwards whether we use nukes or not. picture it as how a virus works, it eventually runs its course. it is up to us to save us, not the world.

I say we're not supposed to do that, as do over 90% of all humans, and if we could ask the animals that would be killed by that, I'm sure they'd also not believe that's what we're supposed to do that. The arguments in your post sound an awful lot like a variation on that "there is no right or wrong" type of philosophy. I do not subscribe to that sort of philosophy at all. There are actions that are inherently wrong, and there are actions that are inherently right. If you divide your set of motivators into the categories of
1- Self - the urge to survive for yourself and to seek personal gain
2- Family - the urge both to procreate and participate in child rearing, kin
3- Groups - the urge to aid in the survival of groups to which you are a member of, to seek gains for these groups
4- The Human species - The urge for our entire species to survive
5- All forms of life - The urge to maintain the survival of all forms of life
6- Matter, Energy, Space, Time, etc (all components of the universe) - The urge to preserve energy, matter and shape it into functional or beautiful forms or to admire it in its natural state.

Then I view right as being the actions that create the most benefits in as many of these 6 areas as possible, while at the same time causing the least amount of harm to these areas as possible.

Now, nuking the planet enough to create deadly levels of radioactive fallout across the entire planet, and cause a nuclear winter would not benefit any of these 6 categories, and would in fact harm all of them to a massive degree, so I would term nuking the planet as not only inherently wrong, but also consider such an act to be one of pure evil.

As for CO2 emissions, there are many alternatives, and many do not involve either use them and emit harmful levels of CO2 or give them up entirely and go back to the stone age. We do have the option to research and develop new technologies that do not emit CO2 gas, or any other sort of toxic, or greenhouse effect causing gasses or any other form of pollutants. It's all a matter of having the will to do so. The first step in having the will to do so is to be aware that there is an urgent need to do so. If there is no need for action, then no one will take any action. To deny the need for action is to deny the possibility of action taking place at all. To deny that a problem exists, is to put the stop to any actions dedicated to solving the problem.

Earlier I wanted to shift the focus of this discussion to sharing ideas on how we can solve the greenhouse gas emissions problem, specific actions that eash of us can take to make ourselves be a part of solutions to this problem. It is shear folly to continue to poison our planet, and arguing that poisoning our planet is right and what we're supposed to be doing is also shear folly. This is the only planet within reach that we know can support us, so lets stop the cycle of poisoning our home, defending poisoning our home, and instead find ways of living that do not poison our home. Our home being planet Earth.

[Chaos-Shaman]

and if we could ask the animals

that's my point, they don't know or can they ever feel guilt, only we can do that, and i do speak to the animals all the time, they don't express guilt. the earth was working that way before we came around and it was doing just fine. in our case, why don't we just ask god that doesn't work for me. animals will cauase themselves to go exstinct and they wouldn't know any better.

Then I view right as being the actions that create the most benefits in as many of these 6 areas as possible, while at the same time causing the least amount of harm to these areas as possible.

man was not meant to get along with others, and that's obvious. man WANTS, if man knows that it's destructive, i'll ask the next fundamental thing man does over all other animals, WHY? no other animal does that, so why leads to guilt. animals other than us do not do this. it would be worse if they did

Now, nuking the planet enough to create deadly levels of radioactive fallout across the entire planet, and cause a nuclear winter would not benefit any of these 6 categories, and would in fact harm all of them to a massive degree, so I would term nuking the planet as not only inherently wrong, but also consider such an act to be one of pure evil.

really, the world would be better off without us, are you sure about that. life would start again, and science shows when one area opens up, such as mass extinction, a whole new area developes, so i disagree. if man is that bad, and everyone seems to have enough guilt to warrant this, than how is this not better for the world of new animals, they just might not GROW a brain like we did

yes, we have already discussed how to improve our conditions but nobody is taking it seriously, they're unserious about it, still buying SUVs, still polluting as much as before. i told you what i would do already and being the type of person i am i repsect nature as much or more as everyone else. the relationships i have with animals is out of this world, and plants too, for they also have spirit, just as much as animals do, but most don't see this, they're too worried about how dandylions are so horrible, but i know they are not, one of the best plants ever, but try and tell that to everyone else. i watch a fella smoke a cigarette while they ramble on how we are creating all this CO2, like come on man, they don't care at all. one thing i do know, money is the driver, unless you can stop the profits, there will be no stopping it. they are now profeting on green products, a complete scam, i've already explained above why that is, if it says green, we should not be using those products, ever, i don't care if it is 20% less, it still has 80% of what we don't want, it's a way to releave guilt to those who super pollute, just buying a couple of those items relieves them of their guilt, and i've checked this theory out so many times that it's rock solid. i spend time analysing what others say and do, especially the ones in fear, the ones that have giant houses and more than one car and all that stuff we say is bad, they all think the same.

[Ameena]

Humans are animals. We're the species that just happened to evolve to the extent that we could start manipulating and (to some extent) controlling their environment more than any other species does. We're not "special". We're not "supposed" to do anything. We just do it, like every other species does.
Buying "green" stuff might be "only 20% less harmful" to the environment than "non-green" stuff...but at least it is less harmful. Humans aren't about to all decide at the same time to stop damaging the environment. There are so many of us now that that would be rather difficult anyway - we're causing a mess just by existing, really, purely through the size of our worldwide population. If any other species started growing in numbers the way we have, we'd kill most of them off so that they didn't damage the ecosystem. You know, the ecosystem we're messing up with all our technology and other stuff.
There are humans who actually do give a shit and want to change things and even take action toward doing so...but generally speaking, humans en masse don't have the foresight (or the inclination) to bother with that kind of thing.

[Seriously Unserious]

the relationships i have with animals is out of this world, and plants too, for they also have spirit, just as much as animals do

Then you are already exercising the 5th part of sanity and goodness. that's good. As for spirit, humans, animals, plants, all don't have spirit, all them these are spirit. That's the way I look at it. I am a spirit that just happens to have a body. as are all people, animals and plants, they're all spirits that each has some particular type of body.

This thing I've noticed about all of us spiritual beings is we're all basically good. Do a good deed for another person and you'll know what I mean, in the form of that warm, happy feeling you get. You get that feeling because you are following your basic nature.

As for things I'm doing to reduce my own personal CO2 emissions, well, I don't use a car, I use public transit or my bike. I've learned about alternative energy technologies that do not pollute and know that such are possible. I recycle or reuse all products that it is possible to recycle or reuse.

Here's a great no pollution product from a grade 10 student from Victoria BC: http://www.sciencefairs.ca/ScienceFairs ... 013-PR.pdf It's a flashlight powered by body heat, so no batteries at all, no toxic waste.

Buying "green" stuff might be "only 20% less harmful" to the environment than "non-green" stuff...but at least it is less harmful.

That is so true. that means the product may still be 80% harmful, and while that isn't ideal, it is better then 100% harmful. That's what I'd call a step in the right direction, and such steps do need to be supported. By boycotting such products, no matter what excuses you make for doing so, you are sending the message of I don't care if we destroy our home and ourselves along with it, I just want to keep buying the same old destructive products as always and don't want better products for preserving our home. Businesses will hear our message loud and clear and offer us whatever it is that's selling, and if it's toxic that's what sells that toxic is exactly what we'll get. If it's green, non-toxic that sells then that's what businesses will produce and the toxic products will simply fail and be abandoned.

[Chaos-Shaman]

i really like what you said Ameena, it is close to what is the truth as i see it. it is what i am saying, animals wipe themselves out of existence, all of them do it, they don't think that that's the last plant of its kind and they should not eat it, they don't care, that's my point, nature does not care at all, it continues, it adapts, it changes all the time with no thought of food supply, environmental, anything like that, nature does not care! it will go on, i think we are trying here to define what nature does, and as i see it, it is doing (we) exactly what it is suppose to do, only difference is we have this self preservation thing going on, nature does not use self preservation, it just is, so you have pointed out what i am saying to the T. or should i say Nth. so when nature throws a curveball that we don't understand or see as detrimental, we start looking for blame, only we can search for blame, all the other animals do not but they will adapt, and usually due to guilt we blame man, it's all mans fault, but really it is not, man is doing what man does, and if man wishes to save itself, it can, but if we do, it was not by natures design, nature does not care. nature has no psychology, that is mans doing

[Ameena]

Um...plenty of creatures have a self-preservation instinct. Otherwise, why run from danger? It's just that most creatures don't experience it to the extent that we do - they tend to think only within the bounds of themselves or their own herd/pack/social group, whereas humans can think on a much larger scale, ie their entire species as well as others. Even then, there are plenty of humans who only think of themselves.

[Chaos-Shaman]

Then you are already exercising the 5th part of sanity and goodness. that's good. As for spirit, humans, animals, plants, all don't have spirit, all them these are spirit. That's the way I look at it. I am a spirit that just happens to have a body. as are all people, animals and plants, they're all spirits that each has some particular type of body.

hehehe, and when they talk to you, then you'll really know they have spirit, i should not say but i will in this case, i have had these experiences, i do not like to say this to much because they really do think i am crazy, not even to my own family, heh, which is why i suggest to everyone else to explore the beyond, and there is so much more SU, and if anyone is lucky enough, they'll meet their own spirits, they'll even talk to you, kinda like in a dream, it can be both, lucid or great masters can do it without anything, i admire those people that can do that. i needed the help of an all natural chemical produced from the pineal gland in the brain. it is what dreams are made of and many plants also possess this spirit molecule, if you can get a hold of that chemical, you will have access to a world(s) and much much more, but everyone should find that out for themselves if they want to know WHY we ask WHY

so what does this have to do with climate, EVERYTHING, we're so worried about the planet but avoid exploring that area, all thanks to the US when they shut down all experiments, i hate them for that!!!!! once one is enlightened, forever they will understand, they won't need jesus, they won't need a bible, they'll know without it! god is not so complicated after that. the fear will no longer control them the same as it did before.

so the bottom line is, like nature, i don't care, i just am what i am. not all so powerful or in control, i just am, i will adapt to lifes curveballs and not put too much blame on man, i do not worry about the earth, it has its purpose too, it does not worry about us either.
DON'T LET FEAR DO THE CONTROLLING.

peace

[Seriously Unserious]

DON'T LET FEAR DO THE CONTROLLING

Absolutely not. when living in fear, one is more then three quarters of the way to death, so that's definitly not a good place to be in.

In fact, anyone who's most common emotions are anger/hate, fear, grief or apathy are more interested in death then survival, and also see others as threats, and so will respond to those threats according to their most common emotional level, hate/anger will attack openly and violently, fear will lash out from the shadows, will use lies, deceit and treachery to bring others down, grief and apathy will merciless seek pity and sympathy at all costs, but will reject any offers of real help. These are dangerous people to be around. That's not saying that just because someone gets angry or experiences grief for a short while because something happened to cause these emotions are a major problem, it's the ones who are always angry, or apathetic or whatever are the ones I'm talking about.

People who live life with enthusiasm, creativity and honesty, however, those are very good people to have around, they'll support your own efforts and take care of their own business. They are the people who get things done, and take pride in doing them right. They are the ones that if they do something wrong will fix it right away. These are the people worthy of trust. These are the types of people I want around me.

These are also the type of people who discover solutions like that grade 10 girl who's invention I posted a link to earlier. Think about it, a flashlight powered by just holding it in your hand! Amazing!

It's ingenuity like this that will put a stop to climate change and the poisoning of our environment, our home.

[Chaos-Shaman]

i love your comments SU, you put some common sense into that one!

you know the power of fear, you know it. trust is not something i believe n too much, it meaning means there is doubt. i think fate or faith is more powerful, and leaves one feeling better.
it's your turn hold the flashlight now

ok, China is doing what i was saying to do:

http://news.yahoo.com/china-plans-furth ... 33420.html

[oh_brother]

Well I hope everyone UK-based is enjoying the weather. No snow on the horizon for sometime yet I would guess . And non UK-based people - I hope it is pleasantly warm where you are!

[Seriously Unserious]

It is warm on the west coast of Canada. Starting tomorrow, it's supposed to be getting more then just warm, but downright hot. I'm hopping for some nice sunny weather for this Thursday, when my Geography class is going on a field trip to Lynn Canyon.

[Ameena]

It's bloody boiling here! I like sunny, but I don't like burny-roasty-heatwave! I think it's been in the mid-to-upper 20s this past week. Blergh...I'd rather it'd stick to the mid-to-late teens instead .

[Seriously Unserious]

mid 20s? We get that in Vancouver all the time, in the summer -- and it's humid too. In a wet environment it's usually not so much the raw heat as it is the heat + humidity that gets you.

The worst heat I remember where I live was in the summer of 2009. It got up into the high 30s at the water in Vancouver, and it was as humid as ever, the humidex ratings were into the 40s -- in Vancouver. We had about 3 or 4 consecutive days that broke heat records. The nighttime lows during that stretch were hotter then the usual daytime highs. Anything metal on the buses around here (like the bars needed to hang on when standing) were so hot they were painful and even giving me minor burns. Needless to say I wasn't getting much sleep during that heat wave, and I spent pretty much the entire day at college (in air conditioning). That week I probably got more sleep in the student lounge at my college then I did in my own bed.

I definitely do now want to experience heat like that ever again.

Of course, where I live, there's a good beach just a short bus ride away, with a beautiful lake to cool off in, whenever it starts getting too hot.

[Ameena]

I dunno what humidity ratings are here atm...actually wait, I just checked on the BBC weather site and apparently it's 58% as of 10am (about 45 min ago). But I have no idea what that means. Apparently the temperature yesterday reached a record (for the year so far) of over 31 degrees, measured in Heathrow airport which is sort of off to the western side of London - I live about 30 miles to the east-southeast of London. So it's not really that far away, really.
Blergh . /melt

[beowuuf]

It's hot in Basingstoke, and I'll be in Heathrow tomorrow. Then on to San Diego, which I believe is a touch colder - so heavy jackets it is!

[oh_brother]

Damn trains without air conditioning...just got back horribly sweaty. Still, it is nice to finally have some summer, I should not complain.

Enjoy San Diego beo. And try to keep warm!

[Seriously Unserious]

I dunno what humidity ratings are here atm...actually wait, I just checked on the BBC weather site and apparently it's 58% as of 10am (about 45 min ago). But I have no idea what that means. Apparently the temperature yesterday reached a record (for the year so far) of over 31 degrees, measured in Heathrow airport which is sort of off to the western side of London - I live about 30 miles to the east-southeast of London. So it's not really that far away, really.
Blergh . /melt

Humidity rating of 58% means the air has 58% of the maximum amount of moisture (water vapor) that it can possibly hold. Hot air can hold more moisture then cold air can. That's why the humidity rating tends to be higher in cooler weather, it takes less moisture to push that humidity rating up. That's also why if it's hot and humid, it can tend to cloud/fog up overnight, as the air cools, it gets saturated so some of that moisture condenses, then later as it warms up the next day, the air can hold all that water again so the cloud/fog/dew evaporates again, and so the clouds/etc "burn off".

It's getting hot and muggy here too. It's broiling hot even now, after sunset, and it's clouded over here. The bus was a sweaty swelter, except for briefly while it was on the highway. The trains I got were air conditioned though

Then on to San Diego, which I believe is a touch colder - so heavy jackets it is!

I hope you enjoy your trip. and don't forget to bundle up for that frigid San Diego weather.

[beowuuf]

The temperature forecast increased...60% humidity and 28 degrees, rising to 30 some days!