CSBuild comments and suggestions

[beowuuf]

While I understand why you say it, I always think of the actuators are 4-inputs AND gates only

All the extra OR/NOR/NAND functionality comes from the versitility of the output
However at its heart it always have to set the four bits of the actuator to active to get your effect out

Lol, since the subject of gates was brought up, and i didn't know if this has ever confused anyone

[Paul Stevens]

The versatility of the output, that is true,
because you can negate the output meaning.

But also.....
The versatility of the input because you
can send it either 'clear' or 'set' messages and
can therefore negate the meanings of the inputs.

Since you can negate both the inputs and the
outputs you can apply DeMorgan's theorm to
turn an 'AND' into an 'OR'.

It was long ago proven that **ANY** boolean
operation (or algebra) can be constructed using only
Negated AND gates (NAND gates). One need say
no more about versatility. Some computers were
constructed using nothing else (and a lot fewer
than the 60000 allowed by CSBuild!).

=======================================

During the process of writing CSBuild I have been
drawing diagrams of the processing that takes place
within CSBwin when actuators receive messages or
are touched or stepped on, etc. I put a couple of
these diagrams on:

bahamas.globat.com/~dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/documentation

I can put more if anyone cares to see them. The standard
DM/CSB code does some rather strange things and is very
inconsistent in its handling of actuators. This inconsistency
in no way detracts from the versatility of these tools but
it does make it hard to remember exactly how they work.

[beowuuf]

This is probably academic since no one has complained, but I would assume most people outside of electronics would get the idea of an OR gate as 'if i put an open signal from either or both switches, then it will open the door', so might wonder the settings for having the actuators operate as an OR gate instead

But we know that actually you need to have it set so if both sets are sending an unset signal, then it will close the door (as you say using DeMorgan and inverting both inputs and outputs) - but this is still an AND gate mentality, i feel. Even selecting differnt actuator 'flavours' where there set/unset conditions are reversed still requires the negative output

As I said, its just what I always thing when I use these - I understand they can also be thought of as purely AND/OR, and of course your DSAs sound like true AND/OR technology in terms of editing, but I always think of the original actuators as AND/NANDs

[rain`]

I assumed the And/Or Gate was simply "AND" only, but with the use of multiple and/or gates on a single tile, you could produce an OR effect... For instance, 3 and/or gates with the following setup:

First: starting value: 0, target value: 3 (1+2 bits) (action A, if not, action C)
Second: starting value 0, target value 1: (action B)
Third: starting value 0, target value 2: (action B)

Thus, if bits 1 and 2 are set, do action A, if bit 1 OR bit 2 is set, do action B, else do action C.

That is how i figured the OR part of an and/or gate worked... Is there a simpler way? (Notice i said simpler, and not "less actuators") =]

===================

Now, since you implied that i was asking the wrong questions before, heres a few "how do i do this" questions:

This is the setup, I want to have an alcove that, when it contains a gem and a sword, it will create a side splitter and remove the sword. As of now, i don't see anyway to do that (except maybe DSA's, but I haven't touched on those yet). It may be possible to do with swap objects and actuators, but I want it to be able to be done multiple times (thus, creating objects in the midst of a dungeon, similarly to how missile shooters work).

So how can this be done? If i'm right and It can't be, perhaps a slew of DSA's actions could be implemented to allow for such things.

Next: Object generator (like monster generator) would be nice. How can I make an actuator setup that allows a player to put a coin into a slot, then see an item come into a seperate alcove an *infinit* amount of times. I know I could make 50 of that item in a wall with a missle shooter that shoots into a teleporter, but that isn't what i want to do =]. If there is leftover bits in actuators to allow for this, perhaps you could consider implementing it into CSB4win (but i highly doubt there are leftover bits). Then again, perhaps we should brainstorm to see if we can find a more generic actuator type to fulfil more needs.

-rain`

ps: has anyone tried putting actuators on monsters and see how they work after they have been dropped to the ground?

[Paul Stevens]

This 'AND' versus 'OR' talk is silly.

Imagine the following: You are on a level of the dungeon
with a sign on the wall that says:
"Choose Your Door/Choose your fate". We
could construct such a dungeon. The exit from the level
is blocked by three doors, each needing a golden key.
If we escape from the level we survive and if we cannot escape
from the level we starve.

rain` arrives and says:
"We will survive if we can open the first door AND if we can open
the second door AND if we can open the third door. Clearly
this is a boolean 'AND' operation."

beowuuf arrives and says:
"We will starve if the first door stays closed OR if the second
door stays closed OR if the third door stays closed.
Clearly this is a boolean 'OR' operation."

PAul arrives and says: "You have discovered DeMorgan's
theorm! By negating the inputs (closed versus open) and
negating the output (survive versus starve) you have said the same
thing using different boolean operators."

Which statement makes more sense to you is a personal
matter and you should feel free to use the one you like best.
When you use an 'And/Or' gate you may find it advantageous
to sometimes think one way and sometimes the other.

[Paul Stevens]

Good Morning rain`:

Nice problem you propose. It cannot be done today.
You will have to wait until tomorrow. Here is what I
suggest:

We provide a way to test if the objects at one location
are found at another. In your first puzzle we would find
an empty wall somewhere and we would put there
a Gem and a Sword. Say it is at 02(3,5)1. And say your
Alcove is at 02(12,11)3. Then whenever something was
placed in the Alcove we would ask: "are the objects at
02(3,5)1 matched one-for-one by objects at 02(12,11)3?"
There may be additional objects at 02(12,11)3 but that
would be OK. If you wanted to make sure that ONLY those
two objects were at 02(12,11)3 then you could do the
same matching operation except backwards.

So now we have a way of checking for multiple objects...
five Coins for example.....and the five Coins could be replaced
by a Gem. Now we need a way of removing the objects
and adding new objects.

We provide a way to remove objects. You would put
somewhere in the dungeon a list of objects you want
removed. In this case a gem and a sword. Then you say
"Remove objects 02(3,5)1 from 02(12,11)3".

Now we need a way to generate objects.

We provide a 'Copy objects from A to B function". So at
some unused location, say 02(3,5)2, you put a Side Splitter.
Then you say "Copy objects at 02(3,5)2 to 02(12,11)3".

I think we have solved both your problems by solving
only one!!!! Ain't programming wonderful? We might
provide a 'sort of negation' for the 'Test' operation and
for the 'Remove' operation which says 'Match' and 'Remove'
anything EXCEPT the listed items. Sort of like the
regular expression [^A-Za-z]. So that if you put anything
other than a Gem or a Sword it would get taken away and
thrown into a pit somewhere. I'll think about that.

We could wrap all of this in a simple DSA that might be
called "Money Changer". I write the DSA so you don't
have to learn anything new. ;-) Then when you put a
"Money Changer" in the dungeon you tell it where the
lists are: In your case one list has the Gem and Sword and
the other list has a Side Splitter. Somebody else might
have one list contain five Coins and the other list contain
a Gem. Somebody else might have one list contain a
Gem and the other list contain five Coins.

You asked the right question.

[Paul Stevens]

rain`

Your three actuators will not work.

Starting at value zero someone sets bit 0.

Action C will be performed because the first Actuator
is not equal 3.

Action B will be performed as you wanted.

This is not what your 'word description' says (I think). You
need another actuator with target 0 to do C.

[beowuuf]

I retract my pedantic comments from earlier : )

I have always thoguht it was odd a) that only weapons were generated from a missile thrower, when they use the same hex code so there didn't seem to be a reason for not expanding it to have object shooters shootign any object whether weapn, potion, etc
and b) i assume the 50/100 limit on shooters it to protect the database, and no other reason?


Without DSAs you can only achieve part of what you want - I think Paul has stated it well, and to get your full vision you woudl be best to wait for these cool sounding item switchers
For the monster dropped actuators, they work fine unless the monster drops items aswell. Then you have to remove the items before the actuator will work. In my own dungeons, for example, I had dragons drop pressure pads - you had to get rid of the steaks though

Monsters can drop text pads and actuators successfully
If you ever resort to cloning you can also have other effects generated on death. For example i nthe team dungeon zyx has a swamp slime queen give out a constant poison cloud on death - a cloned actuator linked to a tile that was constantly pumping out a poison bolt spell
Alternatives - have an actuator linked to a triggering teleporter - the creature drops that key you need...ooops, its disappeared!
Etc.

[rain`]

beowuuf: By monsters dropping items do you mean the auto-drops that certain monsters drop (i.e armor from knights, steaks from dragons), or does that also include items added manually to the monster?

For instance, It's probably evident what I would like to do but here it goes: A dragon carries an actuator (floor pad) that is activated by the specific item "Green Gem". The dragon also carries a green gem so when the dragon dies, it drops the actuator and then the green gem, which activates the actuator which may open a door. Thus making a "on death" type actuator placed on monsters. =]

[Paul Stevens]

I have never encountered the 50/100 limit on Shooters
(Missile Launchers in my language). Where do you see this
limit?

Protecting the database is indeed a very important
consideration. In both of the problems posed by rain`
an object was created by giving up another object so
that their number cannot grow without limit. In the first
case a Gem and in the second case a Coin. I assume
that those exist in finite quantities.

The problem of killing an infinite number of skeletons
and having them drop an infinite number of shields is
very real. The solution probably depends to some extent
on the particulars of the dungeon design. The code as it
came from FTL discarded objects far from the party when
the databases started to overflow. Now the definition of
'Overflow' has changed somewhat because the entire
16-bit address space is shared by ALL objects instead of
each type of object having a limit of 1024.

[beowuuf]

Monster drop: any dropped items, i believe, but its been a while since i investigated so feel free to do your own trials to disprove that
So as it stands i don't think your thing would work
I would suggest a monster in a monster with 0 health to give you that delay, because a monster dropping items activates things. But if i remember correctly a 0 health monster still walks aroudn alive, just dies the second you hit it
Alternatively I think the pad will add on removal, so have a 'remove gem' triggered pad.
As i said this is a whiel since i did all this, i justremember some 'issues' about actuators with items already present

Shooters: Personal experience on the limit, experimented on with PC DM and also in a dungeon level i did
Boulder shooter cannot fire more that ~ 100 (it seems under that)
Other weapon shooter cannot fire more than ~ 50 (sure it was somethign odd like 47)
It could have been from a constant triggering, or it could just be the object itself is somehow tracked...not sure

[beowuuf]

Tried a few hex tricks involving teleporters, but I think the dropped items is a serious issue
You really can't do anything with dropped actuators until you clear the square of other objects.
The trick i tried was to have a cloned square with a constantly triggered teleporter teleporting whatever was dropepd (screamer slices from screamers) from the object dropped. Didn't work, only worked when slices moved and replaced

Will keep playing aorudn with it for, say, a few hours tomorrow before gettign distracted and tel lyou if i find anything else :)

[rain`]

CSBuild bugs/requests:

1. Individual Potion editor (for power/level of potions)
2. Counter editor has a target section but no browse (perhaps you just forgot about that actuator?) Its not a huge deal since counter's aren't used that often, I'm not complaining that its not there just noting its lack of existance =]
3. When adding floor decoration "SQUARE DRAIN" (which is also a default one), it results as showing the item "<none>"
4. When selecting monsters for a Monster Generator actuator, it lists all monsters. This may be a feature or a bug, I'm not sure (I haven't tested using monsters not on the level's list). I only mention this because adding individual monsters only allows you to select monsters on the level's monster list.

Thats it! I'm so demanding arent i!

-rain` (Lovin your editor sir!)

[Paul Stevens]

All noted. I think I am going to have to spend a week
in debug mode instead of 'feature' mode. It is not as
much fun but it must be done.

I think the monster generators are a 'feature'. Just as
you can teleport monsters to any level, you can create
them on any level. They will die quickly if they don't
belong there.

Thanks for your time to report these things.

[beowuuf]

I got the monster drop problem sorted, but its quite convoluted! It involves getting the engine to teleport the naturally dropped objects from a cloned tile, to another and back to trigger the actuator. And then any further 'carried' items are shot out at the same time from an object shooter!It therefore needs the ability to clone (DMute or older version of CSBuilder, i believe).
If you need this passionately then mail me and I can post you either the dungeon or the method, otherwise good luck with an alternate : )

[beowuuf]

Back to the monster death/drop issue:
Convoluted solution, involving cloning. So if you can't do this (needs DMute and CSBuilder) or its not a driving issue for your dungeon, you might want to investigate other ways yourself.
Otherwise, ratehr than clutter a thread, mail me and I'll send you the dungeon and the details on settign it up.
Oh, and it will only work with item dropping monsters - eg dragons, screamers, etc

[beowuuf]

Well, something posted when it appeared it hadn't!

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild version 0.768 is at

webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

--Check|Targets warns if target position non-zero in non-wall cell.
--Counter editor allows browsing
--Fix Floor Drain listed as <none>
--Implement 'Swap Object' (Firestaff actuator)
--Correct spelling of 'clocwise'
--Implement 'EndGame' actuator
--"Target Of" List ignores actuators without target information
--Implement Edit Potion

My list is empty. Let me know what I forgot.

[rain`]

Seems to me everything is implemented, now all there is left to do is debugging and implementing new DSA's.

As far as im concerned, your editor is 99.9% ready for "Version 1" so to speak =]

A few things to note, that are not important to me at all, but could be part of the editor (If you don't do it, I don't think anyone would notice). Editing text scrolls and wall texts: Technically i believe its possible to implement actual spell symbols in text, the way the documentation on dungeon.dat files states, it should be possible to put all the symbols in a scroll and/or wall text. It's not something I could use, but if this is the only thing you currently can't edit, then you must realize that version 1.0 is right around the corner =]


-rain`

PS. Now we need to start threads on "Actuator ideas" for DSA's, advanced uses of actuators and DSA's to spread ideas, and make some new dungeons! I hope people are inspired by this editor to create dungeons, because I am looking forward to complex puzzles and great gameplay (Something DMute lacks!). Theoretically you can change any and every aspect of the game, so using *just* your editor to make a new dungeon is far from reaching the limit.

[Paul Stevens]

I wrote a simple "Money Changer" DSA.
To see it, get FirstMoneyChanger.rar from

http://bahamas.globat.com/~dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/

The Money Changer is on the top (prison) level. See
if you can find it and figure out how it works.
The .rar file contains A CSBuild and a CSBwin and
a dungeon.dat. They all go together.

PAul

P.S. I suspect that anyone who really wants to
know how it works will require a bit of documentation.
I have the diagrams I drew while developing the DSA.

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild 0.770 is at

webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

Only 230 versions to go. This one has a menu
item to search for objects in the dungeon.

[PicturesInTheDark]

Hi Paul,

thanks for your latest efforts, I'll have another go at reducing the version 'til 1.0... here are some features that I'd like and some bugs I've found:

* If more than one object exists on one coordinate point, I find it a bit annoying that all of them appear (not are, but appear!) to be "selected" when you view the dialog. Any of them could be active by default, but only one should appear highlighted to avoid confusion.

* "Level Info" could automatically show the dungeon level you're currently editing to ease the process and avoid accidental changes on level 0 (which is the default at the moment)

* "Add/delete columns" and "add levels" should be in the same menu dialog, no matter if "level info" or "global info". And although you said no deleting would be implemented, I'll try again with this as a feature request. Also, add (delete ? ;))colums would be easier with a counter (+/-) since otherwise it takes a long time to add them per click.

* If you can show information on the right handside, details would be appreciated (by me). For example: Instead of monster, "Red Dragon" (and, even better, HP and number) would be great! I know you don't want pictures, but if the latter request seems possible, would you think about implementing a function that could read pics (whatever specification or file type you like best) ALTERNATIVELY to the text so that if pictures were provided by someone, those would be shown instead of the text? Same thing would be possible for characters, for example. So you (and all those preferring the text method) could still have their favorite way of editing and others liking graphics for a quick glance could use those pictures? Would be a bit like the alternative tiles...

* A "check all" or "check dungeon" would be helpful, since you could perform a complete check after editing at one click.

* "Show text" could be active by default since it's more often used than editing characters.

* When "number of monsters is more than 1, the positions could automatically be adjusted depending on the amount.

* "Pit is hardly visible" should only be possible after choosing "Pit is active" - otherwise it makes no sense and has no effect.

* When creating a new actuator (I tried with "and/or gate") and adding another one, the automatic edit dialog does not open the second (latest), but the first one.

Regards, PitD

[Paul Stevens]

Thank you very much. Most of what you want can
and will be done. A couple of things I will explain
my point of view. I will attack them one at a time....
they are a bit overwhelming when seen all together!

[PicturesInTheDark]

No problem, just accumulated some on my vacation and wanted to let you know before I forgot. I'll try to get back to the documentation in the next days, so there might be some questions lurking there, too...

Regards, PitD

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild Version 0.771 is at:

webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

--Editing 2 Mummies used to change their location
even if you exit the dialog without making changes.
--"Show Text" is the default when inserting new text
--Changed name of button on pit dialog to say
"Hard to see when open". It was suggested that this
button not be present when the pit was 'inactive'
but the designer needs a way to specify what the
pit looks like if it becomes active during gameplay.
--Provide legal initial positions for monsters when
multiple monsters are added to a cell.
--Monsters are now identified by number, name, and
total hit points in the list to the right of the map.
--A "Check|All" option has been added to the menu.
--On the 'Level Info' dialog...buttons for non-existant
levels have been removed.
--When you open the 'Level Info' dialog, the currently
displayed level is selected as default.

[Paul Stevens]

PitD:
=============================
You say:
annoying that all of them appear (not are,
but appear!) to be "selected" when you view the dialog

I need help here. When I right click on a cell
with objects in more than one corner, each of
the corners has one object 'selected'. Pressing
the 'Eidt' button edits that object. This default
'selection' was done at Christophe's request.
Perhaps I misunderstand what you aare saying.

===================================
Add/delete columns" and "add levels" should
be in the same menu dialog

I prefer to leave it as it is. The "Global"
applies to things that affect the dungeon as
a whole and the "Level" applies to things on
a single level. The game files are built this
way and I like the editor to reflect the
structure of the game when that is reasonable.

====================================
When creating a new actuator (I tried with
"and/or gate") and adding another one, the
automatic edit dialog does not open the
second (latest), but the first one

I could not reproduce this problem. Perhaps
you could tell me the exact sequence to follow.
I tried this in both an 'open' cell and in a
'wall' cell and it seemed to work correctly.
==========================================
would you think about implementing a function
that could read pics

I did. For the moment the answer is 'No'.
If five people will say that little pictures
are necessary then I will think again. I don't
understand it myself but then it is not the
first.
============================================

[PicturesInTheDark]

I have to take back the first two issues: one of them was an error on my part ("edit"), the secon I cannot reproduce although I'm sure it happened yesterday in my test dungeon. Should I find out a sequence that confirms this, I will let you know.

On the last part, thanks for the answer, that is perfectly acceptable. My persistence regarding that point comes from the belief, that you could make your outstanding work considerably more attractive for some people that might now refuse to use the editor point-blank without not too much effort on your side. But I'll gladly wait and see if others think so as well.

Regards, PitD

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild version 0.772 is at:

webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

--Distinguishes between blue and green boxes
--Copyright notice includes my name
--Options now allows illegal stairways to be
built and pass 'Checking'
--'Safe', 'Default', and 'Expert' work in 'Options'.
--Added database numbers to 'Object Counts' list
--Limits 'UnDo' and 'ReDo' to 1000 changes.
--Removed 'Cancel' and renamed 'OK' in DSA list dialogs.

These changes were all proposed by PitD during the
creation of his CSBuild documentation. His work is
progressing well and looks very nice.

[Paul Stevens]

CSBuild Version 0.773 is at

webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

All of the following were at the request of PitD. One
email added 0.148 inches to my stack of 3x5 cards. Total
to date is 13/16 inch.

1) Blank line separates cell type and cell contents on map screen.
2) Disallow monters and items in stairwells.
3) Allow monsters and items in stairwells as 'Option'.
4) Reformat location on Status Bar on map screen. "Level[ll(xx,yy)pp"]
5) Text to right of map modified: Examples:
----- "Stairs(up/down)"
----- "Wood Door(open)"
----- "Trick Wall"
----- "PushButton(Block Lock)"
----- "Screamer Generator(none)"
----- "Choose Your Fate"
6) Deleting item from chest causes previous item to be selected.
7) Allow spaces in Text.
8) Alphabetize Miscellaneous Items insert list.
9) Distinguish between 'Firestaff' and 'Firestaff+'.
10) Delete non-existent potions from list and warn when Check|Objects.
-----First Mon Potion
-----Ra Bomb
-----Pew Bomb
-----Kath Bomb
11) Make long Door Decoration name fit in list boxes.
12) Make long Floor Decoration name fit in list boxes.
13) Make long Wall Decoration name fit in list boxes.
14) More space for Door Type name in Edit Level Dialog.
15) Rename boxes to 'Magic Box(Blue)' and 'Magic Box(Green)'.
16) Distinguish between 'Bones' and 'Bones(Party)'.
17) Change title of "View Level Info' to 'Edit Level Info'.
18) Clean up a lot of 'Not Implemented' and other errors
when editing the King Hisssa dungeon. Most was due to unused
bits being set in ways I had not expected (I usually set
unused bits to zero). I think the reports are now correct.

[PicturesInTheDark]

Hi Paul,

when trying to add (any!) new decorations or monsters of any kind I get unknown/illegal in all cases! Once I even got an abnormal program termination - please check. I wrote you an email as well with the same information.

Regards, PitD