Dungeon Master Forum

For me it is not nostalgia. There is no left, right, up, or down. It all
looks the same and is something I cannot name but will call 'uninteresting'.

You asked!

Gambit37 wrote: Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm I often wonder if it's a mistake to start showing things to people... so many opinions

Every dungeon crawler has taken liberties with what looks good vs. what would actually work structurally. If you look at Captive, EOB, even Legend of Grimrock, they all have discrete ceiling blocks in their tiles that simply could not work in the real world. DM avoided the issue by having a completely bland ceiling of random pixels, so I wanted to improve that. I'm not that concerned about complete realism, just what looks good to me personally.

I should stress that this is a creative update to DM to suit my own preferences. Some of you probably won't like all the changes. I'm OK with that.

I find myself smiling. I must admit that it is pleasant to me, just knowing you have/are devoting time to give a new face to this wonderful game. I'm enjoying THEO's work, as well.

Adding my own opinion, I like the original ceiling more than any other ceilings I've seen. I did like the ceilings, somewhat, on the caves of Skullkeep. However, I've always thought a less 'finished' look would be nice for the DM ceilings. Wonder why it ever entered my head?

P.S. Make a REALLY BIG SHIELD for some of the skeletons, removing their swords altogether, and let them use their shields to PUMMEL the infidels who dare to adventure into their 'safe' spot.

I have received a PM that indicates some confusion about my comment
concerning the tiled floor versus the random floor.
I think I can clear things up by adding a little context.

Gambit37" wrote:Interesting that people prefer the original floor. I suspect nostalgia is at play here.

Paul Stevens wrote:For me it is not nostalgia. There is no left, right, up, or down. It all
looks the same and is something I cannot name but will call 'uninteresting'.

Amazing that such things can stir such reactions

I admit I didn't understand your up/down comment, but that's ok. I don't understand a lot of things.

After some reflection, I think I understand it as this :

OMG, that's amazing! I really want to play that! Makes much more sense now. Brilliant, thank you, although now I can't unsee it and I did rather like the new floor.

One of the things I'd considered was a completely different environment for a couple of special levels. Given the reactions over a simple floor change, I suspect whole new designs is too much of a change for most of you?

run it by us...we'll tell you

Gambit37 wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 8:22 pm Amazing that such things can stir such reactions

I admit I didn't understand your up/down comment, but that's ok. I don't understand a lot of things.

Ha. Honored to know we share this understanding of ourselves. It keeps us studying, doesn't it?


Sphenz: Thanks. I would simply love seeing something 'drop out of the ceiling' in a Dungeon Master setting.


RE: Paul's last clarification. Repetition. It can be used as a great tool for understanding, right?

VIS: 1 +1 = 2. Let me say that another way... 1 + 1 = 2. There, that makes it much clearer. No pun intended.
Just an appealing appeal to the often needed necessity of Pete and Re-Pete.

Well, your skeleton has changed too and got standing ovations, so it's not solely about the changes.

By the way, the corridor suddenly looks way cooler with the Screamers hanging everywhere, so if you want to go for a dimension-warping, I'd actually recommend that very floor and ceiling design. You can do evil stuff with a layout like that, Adamski did it in Upside Down.

But I guess, just be true to yourself: if you like it there is a high probability that most of us will like it too, perhaps not in every detail, but in the general feel of the game.

Sphenx wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:20 pm After some reflection, I think I understand it as this :

The two rectangular, black sections at the top? Could they be turned into Neon Signs?

I like the updates, the DM floor is a must. Or at least not a brick base that matches the walls. This is true of the ceiling. Just ends up looking like a repeated texture which in 3D games is a lack of effort. (obviously not the case in a 2D game where each is hand drawn and requires plenty of effort). As one of the few people who has attempted to redo the entire DM set (over 500 individual images).. I know what an undertaking this is.

If anything, a pang of regret at not completing my own set re-emerges when I see this. Really nice work Gambit. I may have to visit back sooner rather than later to see the update (despite my insane schedule)

Wow, good to hear from you Cowsmanaut, and thanks for the nice comments. No idea if I'll ever finish this project -- like you say, there's a lot of images, but at least I'm not doing everything from scratch and have the original images to build upon. It's still bloody slow working at the pixel level though! And I've just discovered that I need to redo my wallset because I've messed up the measurements... flippin' eck!

ahh sizes.. I think I did that with my previous set. The DMjava sets vs RTC screen sizes were different.

Gambit37 wrote: Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:58 pm My visual update to DM/CSB remains in low resolution. I'm slowly updating all the creatures through pixel editing, which is a huge undertaking. But I'm not sure how far to go with the changes.

Here's an example of the skeleton. Which do you prefer? The one that still remains close to the original skeleton in the middle, or the more interesting/realistic version on the right? (Note that the right hand one is not finished, it would be cleaned up a lot!)

I know we've moved a bit past this point, but I thought I'd add my thoughts to the mix on some things. First off, I like what I'm seeing. I like the skeleton on the right best. IMO the shield is about the right size for a large round shield. Also adding the steel reinforcements and steel boss in the middle makes it look far better. That original shield would be impossible to hold, with nowhere for the hand to go, that's why round, centre grip shields have that boss sticking out in the middle, and it's made of steel to give more protection to the hand. Seeing that in a game makes me think "finally, someone gets it."

I also prefer the original floor, mainly because it gives a more distinct difference between wall, floor and ceiling. The trippy pics of screamers everywhere is how I feel when I see walls, floor and ceiling all using the same stone blocks. For the ceilings, if you wanted a more authentic feel and have the time and inclinaation, you could go for either stone blocks that are wider then the hall, or have an arched look to them. As long as the blocks are angled right, they'll hold each other up. If not, just stick with the original mystery ceiling and all will be well with the world in chaos.

Man, these look awesome. The walls and the rightmost skeleton remind me a lot of the Japanese SNES version of the first Wizardry trilogy, and those games have great spritework so that's a compliment.

I am in a quandary.

I've been working on this update, pixel upon pixel, for a while. It is *very* slow going as every graphic needs to be pixel edited by hand to look as good as possible. The original intention was to make a version of DM at the same resolution as the original: 320x200, but with improved graphics, and also adding in all the innovative updates/features that the clever forum members have come up with over the years (Spellbook, quivers, automap, etc.) plus some of my own extras: ambient sounds, hint oracle, animated dungeon FX, etc.

However, after a while, I really wondered what the point was of staying at 320x200. After all, if I'm updating all the graphics, wouldn't it make more sense to go to the maximum resolution that the DSB can offer? That's only 640x480, but it does provide a lot of extra scope for more detailed graphics and a more refined user interface, while still looking retro. However, because DSB only runs in 640x480 resolution, when you use images that are designed for half the resolution, the automatic scaling features of the engine can make distant items/creatures/decorations look awful. The results create a kind of disconnect where the intention is for a low-res experience, but the engine introduces higher resolution glitches -- and that's not good enough for my requirements.

I wondered if the scaling algorithms would work better if the graphics were designed at the target size of 640x480. So I spent a bit of time creating a higher res version of the UI and testing out some higher res dungeon graphics. Basically, completely redrawing everything using a combination of photobashing, digital painting, and other techniques to create my own styled version of DM at twice the original resolution of the original game. It started to look quite good, but there was one problem: It just didn't feel like DM anymore.

I also considered that perhaps the basic idea of updating DM is pointless. It's now so very retro and of its time, and even with improved looks and a few extra features, it's still the same game that we've all played to death a million times. Updating DM also doesn't really flex the muscles of the DSB engine which is capable of a lot more. I have previously started my own custom adventure for DSB in higher resolution -- perhaps it makes more sense to return to that, so that I'm freed up to make my own game in my own style, rather than being constrained by the limits of the original DM?

Why does any of this matter? Why should anyone else care about this?

Well, at some point, I would like you lovely forum people to play what I've created! I have been tinkering with this stuff for over 20 years and have never released a playable dungeon (!), and I finally want to release at least one good project while I still have the energy to do so... As I don't have time to work on multiple projects, I must decide which to focus on, from these three options:

1. An updated version of DM in the low-resolution style of the original (320x200, see my mockups at the start of this thread) -- and accept that it will have the graphical scaling glitches that I outlined above.
2. An updated version of DM in in the higher 640x480 resolution, in a unique art style (monsters and items will look different to the low-res version but other elements will be similar)
3. Revisit my completely new unique adventure not related to DM, in the higher 640x480 resolution.

If you had the choice, which of these three options would you like to play?

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks!

Work-in-progress comparison of options (1) and (2) below:

Apparently I'm the first to answer...

First things first: Both images look absolutely awesome.

For the rest, let me state that I'm not as much of a DM enthusiast as many others here: I've played it originally on a friend's Amiga in the mid-nineties and maybe a couple of times on RTC and maybe DSB (not sure of that right now). That's just for reference.

My tip for you would be to concentrate on your own work (especially if you do have ideas of your own). You basically said it yourself: if it should be "really" DM it's a lot of work for just another clone, and I'm with you: the second image doesn't feal like "really" DM. The same goes for any extras, actually, though some of them may take some nuisances out (automap feature) - but then again, for me part of DM was just that: sitting there for hours hugging the walls and drawing a map myself.

If you do your own, however, it's enough that a certain reference is still there. Apart from that, you're free to unleash anything you can think of (and implement of course...), all the features, all new graphics if the old don't suit you anymore. I think you'll have a bigger audience that way, and thinking of Saumun, Adamski, Zyx (and probably others I forgot to mention) that will still be much fun to play.

So basically the question you have to ask yourself is this: do you have enough ideas in stock to make a full, new game? If yes, go for it. (The work you'll have to put in sounds like a lot for any of your mentioned projects...)

3). Your own unique adventure. Definitely.

Thank you Prince of Elves, wise words. I do believe I have enough ideas to make a new game, although within the confines of established dungeon-crawler conventions... And you're also right that any of these projects needs vast amounts of time invested in them, due to the graphics-heavy nature of my ambitions. I hope that I can produce something worthwhile with the limited time available to me.

And thank you Paul for your succinct reply. I believe you are right.

I would personally prefer to play a whole new adventure too.

Yeah I think a new dungeon seems like it woud be more worth the effort than yet another remake of the existing DM dungeon. We know that one already, after all, and personally the fanciness of the graphics has never been a reason for me to play a game. If it looks pretty, that's a bonus but otherwise I don't generally care. If I pay attention to anything about the graphics it's more likely to be the style than the quality, anyway.

Thanks Ameena. For me, the look of a game directly influences my enjoyment of it -- as an artist/designer, how could it not?

Given these limited but helpful responses, I'll most likely invest the bulk of my time into a new unique creation. I have several old projects, any of which would be good candidates.

However, I have also now found a way of making DSB generate a proper old-school low-res view without all the glitches. As a result, I will likely finish my DM redux project as well, but without the new graphics -- it'll just be a version of DM with the classic graphics (plus some corrections and minor additions) and all the extra features that we got in RTC but that were never transferred over to DSB. I still think that's a useful project to complete.

For what it's worth, I thought your additions to the DM mechanics were quite nice, and to see them in a new dungeon would be pretty great.

What glitches are you talking about with DSB, though? And what are you doing to generate a "proper old-school low-res view"?

Sophia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:39 pmFor what it's worth, I thought your additions to the DM mechanics were quite nice, and to see them in a new dungeon would be pretty great.

Thank you. No promises about where any of that might end up though! But I do think a 'redux' version of DM might be nice for DSB: it will look oldschool with the original graphics, but would get the RTC spellbook, the magic map, and some of my extras that I developed such as the "no hoarding" immovable chests, etc.

Sophia wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:39 pmWhat glitches are you talking about with DSB, though? And what are you doing to generate a "proper old-school low-res view"?

It's the scaling of the graphics. With DSB running at 640x480, it's not possible to get the kind of scaling that DM does at 320x240. With DSBs graphics being 2x the original DM graphics, when the engine scales anything down for distance sizing, they can look higher resolution at a distance than the surroundings and this looks super weird. Here's a visual to explain it, DSB currently shows this mirror on a front3 wall at half its doubled resolution, which doesn't fit with the style of the wall. It should really look more like the mirror on the right.



For that old school crunchy pixel look, I don't want these kinds of resolution anomalies -- so I'd really prefer it if there was an old school mode where DSB is only rendering 320x240 internally and then doubling up, so that it would avoid this strange scaling problem.

When I started thinking about that, I realised I could do this for the dungeon view with a terrible performance killing hack shoved into sys_render_other():
It works great and actually doesn't seem to intoduce any noticeable lag, but then I have a powerful machine. No idea how this would behave on older hardware. It would be cool for DSB to offer something like this natively (as a designer specified option, through a GAMEFLAG?) in the same way that RTC does. Better yet, supporting pre-scaled views for scaled items would be excellent.

I looked at my progress on the low-res graphics update: I've actually done more than I realised. It would be a shame to never release that. It's also a bit of a creative downer to just throw away all that work.

I also realised something very obvious but that hadn't occurred to me: Don't just update DM/CSB, but instead build an entirely new DM adventure* with this new look-and-feel... maybe some kind of prequel or sequel...? That way, I can release the improved graphics and you all get to play something new too! (If anyone is still playing dungeons...!?) Sure, the glitchy scaling will bother me, but I'm a daft old perfectionist and the rest of you won't even notice anyway...!

Sometimes I'm an idiot! Thanks for bearing with me while I thrash this stuff out embarrasingly in public...

* I could always retro fit this stuff into DM/CSB later, once I've released my own dungeon first. And of course, I'd be happy to release it all to the community so that others can build their own DM dungeons with the improved graphics and features.

I also like the idea of a new custom dungeon with your redone updated graphics. I will show my support by providing something at the engine level to do the sort of scaling you want; check the DSB subforum.

Although I do feel sort of good that DSB is flexible enough this could be solved by the dungeon designer if absolutely needed, even if it isn't very efficient at all.

Wow, thats amazing, thank you very much!

I'm also pleased for you that I could prove how flexible DSB is, even if my hack was evil and terrible...

We have already many options available for replay DM, get a totally new adventure with improved graphics would be the best I think.
My vote is for option 3.