Dungeon Master Forum

need the texture and normal map

it's to go with this.. I wanted the wall texture and to mess around with things to get an idea of scale before I finish this guy.. still ned the little bowl under it and the water spout.. and well have it on an actual wall texture rather than it's current rough edges appearance



and well.. fix the crappy geo

ok well, third time the charm I guess.. downloaded and got 60fps btw.. with my laptop. but still no luck on the texture since it's compiled into the game? what would be cool is if you made it possible for me to add/replace/test within the engine

Fook me, thats nice. Excited now.

If you are serious about doing some artwork (as it looks you are). I can probably put a little app together where it renders a scene using the current render engine from files you specify. Can you export to .x (directx format) ? If so, we will be sorted. I use PolyTrans to get the models out of 3ds max and into .x format. It does a bloody good job but it cost me a lot of money (I have spent £1000 so far on tools and models to get where I am, I must be nuts).

If I were to go backwards and make the creature animations 'flick screen' like the original DM, would it be a lot easier to do ? I actually just want to get a whole game done now. Let me know.

60fps on a laptop. Bloody hell, it must be a beast.

DSE wrote: If I were to go backwards and make the creature animations 'flick screen' like the original DM, would it be a lot easier to do ?

I cannot tell you whether or not it would be easier. It would be different and-the way I imagine it, for I have not much clue- almost as difficult,if not more difficult.


After all, you have to do something about creature movement. Party should move like monsters and monsters should move like the party, and clockwork mode is
good to see what the monster is up to and aiming etc..

In dm, the creatures do move slightly up and down (1 pixel or so and 1 px to the side) to show some movement while "standing still" on a square.
This is to be percieved.
if they move into a direction, and have 2 options (left and forward) the dragon for instance turns on the spot it is standing until it has decided.
knights and trolins can double attack. If you bump into a creature it will get a free xtra move.
So the monsters are not flat, but have through these nifty little detail a life of their own.(this may all not be 100% correct )

You will have to have transitions between the animations for attack, forward walk, forward charge side move turning ..and combinations of them.
So its the single animation> attack etc and transition from these..

That=s not very easy to do I guess. doable? does it make sense?(I am a noop at these things but the above is what I came up with)
And of course it would really be a cool eyesight and blend into the game much more.imo.

Sorry, I didnt mean from a coding perspective. Doing 'flick screen' like the original, from a coding perspective, is a walk in the park compared to what I had to do to get mine working. The 'is easier' bit was referring to creating the models and animating them in a 3d package ready for the game engine. I suspect its a lot easier and will be far less time consuming for an artist. We will see.

Thanks for the response anyway, interesting to note the internals of dm compared to mine. :O)

well, I am at the very least able to do a few things for the environment right now. They are fast and easy to do. I do have other projects that I'm working on at the moment, but this specifically is giving me the chance to work on some skills I require for classes so it's sort of a double dip for me. I make the model, get the practice and research in and have examples to show for class use.

.x eh? there is a plugin for maya to export to .x format.. but I think it crashed a few times trying to export animated meshs the last time I used it.. though I only tried it 3 times. Your static meshs all need to be .x too?

as for the movement of monsters. I was more inclined to ask you to do a burst movement style for the player.. where at least you see a bit of the movement. 1. because you move faster than the monsters. and 2. because I sometimes get a bit confused as I rotate. and 3. because popping like that as everything else goes smooth seems a bit odd.

Burst movement means to me, that you make the same kind of move you are now, you just see the traveling to location bit that we currently are skipping. This will give the party a speed that will allow the beasts in the dungeon at least to keep up, if not catch you depending on the speed you use. and will make movement within the dungeon perhaps a little easy to follow.

It would be interesting to get to know how you did design your engine. I would like to know how you manage to move around in 3d(do you use coordinates or what?)
(for laymans terms, but most certainly not enough space here to explain flick screen vs. realtime movement)
burst move is certainly an option. I would like, however to see a sample of the player movement in this mode..if it is not to much adoo(trouble).

burst move improvement>
(there was one 3d clone that slightly moved the camera(head/vision center) up and down, when moving around.
for each step this up and down of the center of vision would be 3 or 4 times.(to simulate movement of the head; very slightly to be used, bcs it can make you sick)
You could argue that even dm employed sth like that, by switching the walls at the side, thus introducing a slight higher and lower wall effect(see it when moving a few squares and looking at walls)

still, the monsters should show some form of transition. I know I can just talk about what I don=t like since I have no way yet of doing it myself, but my opinion is this>
the monsters have character, and it should really show when you observe them (when they move around)
The AI is probably not the most outstanding for your ettin, so maybe that monster could still be good.

turning
Turning could be 3/4th.So you press a button twice to turn full left(backboard ) and press once to just peek around the corner (kind of ..)

for items>
animate them in a gravity like way?
The chain of the morning star would curl up when in backpack. If put in a hand, or when you pick the morning star up, the chain would elongate and swing back and forth with inertia calculated
(depending on the direction of the mouse cursor-s movement(---> short time passes by for the chain to react to the movement/direction change).
why? would make probably fun to look at and to manage inventory..packing things here and there and drag them around. Should not be overdone, though.
[still picture vs. more real feel of animated and reactive item]

Cows - .x for all models (environment and creatures). You can send them to me in any format and I will use PolyTrans to convert them for you, its a great tool.

Zoom - interesting ideas there. My engine renders in 3d but uses a 2d mechanism for deciding what position the players/creatures/etc are at. Well until last night, due to the re-enabling of the 'burst' movement. Its now closer to an fps than ever. In fact I did change it to be an fps for a brief time but thats not what I want to create. To extend on your ideas - I am implementing a look up and down which will allow the player to pick things up easier (because with physics the items can end up anywhere) and click switches on the roof, etc. Should be good.

New video - this time showing the 'burst' movement that people on here are banging on about :O) I did it ages ago and disabled it because I dont personally like it. See what you think. I am going to make it optional in the final release. I am also looking at maybe animating it more, so it feels more like real movement. Let me know.

Cheers.

IMHO: The current movement and turning rates are too slow (I know it's just a test).

If you decide to go with this kind of animated movement, some subtle camera tilts and rolls would go a long why to making the motion feel more natural, along with smoothing of linear and angular velocities.

Food for thought:
Run key - faster movement & consumes more stamina
Look - modifer key that allows arbitrary looking-around.

Roquen - first off thanks for the reply. The 'animation' takes 0.5 when run in real time. When I record my videos its slightly slower than when its running normally due to the over head of writing out the movie at the sametime. If I make it any quicker its just looks weird (to me). Also, in my previous post I stated 'I am also looking at maybe animating it more, so it feels more like real movement', but when I tried this it just made me feel sick after 10 or so minutes play. Also stated in my last reply 'I am implementing a look up and down which will allow the player to pick things up easier', this will basically be a 'look' key for searching around the current location (not available during movement). Again, I dont really want to stray too far away from the DM way of doing things. All these will be options so the user can turn them on or off (if implemented at all).

Thanks.

WRT: Look up & down, I saw your comment but wasn't clear if you were considering a simple up/down tilt or a mouse-look (where I'm advocating the latter).

recording movies - you could change your master clock so that the engine doesn't know about the time spent spewing out a frame (well assuming your single threaded)

movement animation - I've never been fond of the "bobbing head" thing...doesn't seem natural to me. Do like slight tilts for side-steps.

Perlin's original easy function might work for smoothing the velocities:
f(x) = x^2(3-2x)

well the burst movement is DM 2.. so it's still the DM way of things

I use FRAPS to record and it removes approx 20-30fps from the app so everything runs a little weird and jerks. The master clock knows that the time has been lost its just not running the same as when the recording app isnt running thats all. TBH I havent spent any time on it because its not running under normal circumstances. It doesnt bother me because I know the final version works ok when not having the overhead of recording.

If you smooth the velocities in a 0.5 sec animation it wont look right. Its over too quick IMO and walking forward will end up 'pulsing' which doesnt look that great. I will look again tonight at doing some sort of anim frig when moving to make it look more natural.

Aaah right. Yes DM2, I forgot it did that as well. Sorry to say, but I thought DM2 was a little bit rubbish. My first love is DM and Chaos, not too fussed about DM2. :O)

just sent a clip to your email of a 3step on dirty ground that could be used for your movement. cut it where ever, could even cut space between steps to make it faster.

cool thanks. I will see what I can do.

one new floor texture emplanted into your email also.. new wall and final fountain soon to follow

This game looks every day better!
Just some little suggestion:
- Follow cowsmanaut suggestion and add little 'step effect' during walk. Not too much, just little.
- Fireball: we're almost there. It just needs some mass and disturbance. I mean: as it is seems a well done globe of light. What imho we should be looking for is something like this if you are ok with my idea:

http://193.204.1.1/infoservizi/attivita ... e/sun3.gif (Of course smaller )

That would make fireballs more menacing as they were in the original DM.

- Monster movement: I know it will be tricky but you should, following zoom's suggestions, make them more 'steppy' by letting perceive that the monster is moving in a square based matrix like the player is. One idea would be to add a brief stop whenever the monster reaches the next cell, maybe by splitting his walkpath in several little walkpaths that lead from one matrix position to the next.

- Lookaround: Thumbs up for that idea. It could lead to some new way to create/solve puzzles

- I love the fog effect. Can you create it with differente colours? I'm imagining a poison filled room with a green mist in it.

zoom wrote: turning
Turning could be 3/4th.So you press a button twice to turn full left(backboard ) and press once to just peek around the corner (kind of ..)

I Love the idea of peeking around the corner, but it should be done with a different button, otherwise turning around would become too messy and complicated.

for items>
animate them in a gravity like way?
The chain of the morning star would curl up when in backpack. If put in a hand, or when you pick the morning star up, the chain would elongate and swing back and forth with inertia calculated
(depending on the direction of the mouse cursor-s movement(---> short time passes by for the chain to react to the movement/direction change).
why? would make probably fun to look at and to manage inventory..packing things here and there and drag them around. Should not be overdone, though.
[still picture vs. more real feel of animated and reactive item]

Also the animated items in backpack idea is very cool. That reminds me one of the best features that Crystal Dragon had: Putting a live rat in your bag!
Would be a nice homage to one of the best old school commercial clones ever made.

The game is moving at speed now. I am really enjoying playing about with the engine and doing the effects :O) I agree about the 'sun' look for fireballs. I will revisit them when I get two minutes and have a go. Cows sent me some gfx that I want to put in as well which might achieve the look we/you are after. I have already done the walk 'bobbing' effect (last night) and it works ok. I want to improve it before releasing a video, it definately adds the effect.

Yes the fog can be any colour and any distance/thickness but its limited to a level not an area of a level. Although I would like to change it so that different areas of a level can be more foggy. We will see.

I will be putting the 'look around the corner' feature in and yes it will be a different button. Please remember though that this project is being done by one guy (me) and things take time. Everything seems to take x20 the projected time.

Hello DSE, thank you for your answer.

I do know (and I think everybody knows that) your is a big, big effort and, talking for myself now, my posts are suggestions that just make the Wish-List for this awesome project grow up.
Being a programmer myself I do know what kind of pressure can a simple piece of paper with a list of things put on a programmer, I live with those things everyday. So I can suggest you to don't look at this wish list as a list of things TO DO in order to make the project move further, keep in mind this is your project and in order for you to complete, it has to satisfy your tastes.
Just take my suggestions (walking effect, fireball, ecc...) like something I think could improve the game, but feel free to not implement or post implement them without offending me, ok?

Thank you a lot for your efforts on this project, there aren't so many of this level around there.

Thanks my friend. Always got time for another coder :O)

Cows- I have sent you about 10000 emails. Sorry, I got confused and then realised. Sorry to spam you :O)

You're wellcome, mate.

I'm not much into .net programming (still working with VB6, we are starting a little internal project in .Net these days) and not much into DirectX but I do code since more than 10 years, I know Object-oriented programming and I spent one year specializing in GFX programming (2D and 3D vectors, at times when accelerated GFX borards were SCI-FI) so even if I can't remember how to do the math maybe I can still give you advices.
So, if you are in trouble or in doubt about some routine/class/whatever you can always ask, in the worst case I will tell you "I do not know", but maybe I can even ease the solving of some problems.

Good to know my friend :O)

Everything to help such a project.

got them all and waded through to a general conclusion.. alpha on the normal map should be the paralax map.. which after a moment made sense to me, since alpha channels on normal maps really do nothing since the transparency comes from the colour map.. weeee

as for sending so many, no worries. I think I've done the same both here and at the inbox.. to you.

I am on my dev machine now. Your statement is 100% correct.