Dungeon Master Forum

beowuuf wrote:So if you walk forward a step, then you are supposed to lurch forward a large distance, but to a recogniseable point that has been expanded, liek the edge of the lake.

That way, you feel the jump of large distances for only a few squares - use some pillars skinned with backgrounds fr directions you cannot walk in.

That's exactly what I'll be doing, though the screens in the demo don't really show it because they are all of random areas.

Ah, that's what threw me, I assumed the plan was just to go to various locations and the mental disconnect of that would jar if I were playing it!

Using the compass is odd for some reason, but I think it's a case of getting used to it, not a case of it being inherently a bad mechanic.

You definitely want to ensure thought that you don't keep flipping between the two means of movements, I think you need large outdoor content that leads to large indoor content, or perhaps only a few steps outdoors before flipping to dungeon/town stuff again.

Yeppers, definitely. The outdoors travelling won't actually take very long -- just a few clicks for the most part, it's just a way of setting the scene for the next bit of normal gameplay.

I'll have a think about the movement mechanic since a few people are finding the compass a bit weird.

I've been looking at this again and come to the conclusion that

a) It doesn't add much to the game
b) It's too much work

So I probably won't be using this technique in my custom dungeon and will instead use some kind of clickable map to select a path to travel.

clickable map:

Would be cool to see the actual path
the group takes

e.g. dotted lines on the map once you click on a target
(2 picture animation?) just an idea

Outdoor area dont work in DM style because short view range, it was designed for dark claustrophobic style and that should be used. Look at my "Warlord" dungeon, it was hi-res outdoor experiment, its just dont work. I think cut scenes is best solution.

Agreed. Moreover, outdoors in DM-like games (with tile/square movement) looks just weird. Especially the vegetation looks very unreal, flat, like theater decorations made of paper. And the landscape looks strange, because it is flat with no hills or any other relief.

thank you, i have now a logic reason to stop FoD development ! \o/

I disagree with Jan & Zed and really hope you don't stop FoD Linflas!

I think the outdoor daytime stuff is completely possible. Sure, there is a slight disconnect of stuff seeming to "pop in" from the background, but with some decent handling of distance shading and clever object manipulation you can solve it pretty well, as Linflas has already proved with the demo of FoD

yeah, that was fun to do.. but as long as RTC is not opensou... uh ? what ?

I didn't want to distract Linflas from working on Forest of Doom. Actually, my comment was meant to make him working more and faster , because there is a huge crowd of people waiting desparately for FoD here!

I also disagree that outdoor DM doesn't work, and not only to motivate Linflas some more.

For example, I liked the forest in EOB2, even though it was tiny. Might & Magic 3-5 all used the first-person view of DM, be it in dungeons or outdoors, and I think it absolutely worked fine. I still say that a tile just means different distances outdoors or indoors.

Trantor wrote:I still say that a tile just means different distances outdoors or indoors.

You're probably right. OK. So - sorry, I was wrong.

For my RTC with large out door areas 'I was thinking' of using a teleporter type system to allow players to return to town/other areas.

You would first have to cross the area though, a trigger then allows a image to be displayed on the wall of the main path, a junction point into another area.

You could then click on the picture, the character with the least stamina (maybe) then complains bitterly about being tired and asks if you can go straight there, you get a few options of different locations you have been (similar set up to the complex actions example with the door), but with the chance that the teleporter takes you to a smaller area where you are ambushed by monsters, defeating or fleeing these then would send you the rest of the way. Another image would send you back to where you started.

Nice ideas Trego! You could do that pretty well I think, I look forward to seeing it implemented

Mechanisms for handling party movement in large areas can be quite varied it seems. I'm no longer going to be using the method I demonstrated in the sample file since I think it actually won't add much to the game play. I'm going to be using a clickable map instead, simply to provide some alternate routes to the ultimate goal and to increase replay value

Just to be clear on another point: The issue of outdoor areas "not working" isn't anything to do with how you navigate them. It's all about how you solve the problem of distant objects needing to fade into a light colour, rather than fade to black. This problem means it's really hard to make normal player spaces that look as if they stretch for miles, because monsters etc. just suddenly "pop in" when they are at most 4 tiles away. You can contrive it if you make all your outdoor areas slightly foggy and fade everything to white in your designs. But if you want your outdoor spaces to be in the bright sunshine, I agree that it's very hard to convincingly handle this in a DM type engine, unless as Zed pointed out, you make your outdoor spaces very empty indeed!

Monkey island map!

What a cool idea. Using a map you've found somewhere and adding little blobs to click on and go to.

beowuuf wrote:Monkey island map!

Yeah! And the insult sword fighting! Pleeeease! Gambiiiiit! Pleeeeease!

Jan, be like roquen and sucnum and join KoL - there is a pirate insult fight homage and eevrything ;D

Please! Don't make me to do this! I've been trying to resist joining this time-consuming activity for months... please... don't say it again... I've got work... and family... and friends... and a dog... and a garden... I should do some sport... I can't just sit at computer... But I'm strong. As strong as a... as a... a rock. I'll resist. I know it... I hope.

Eh... please, could you put down the banner of yours advertising KoL? It's making me nervous. Anxious. You know.

You can turn off signatures in your profile. I did. Now Beo seems normal again; well, as normal as he normally is

ian_scho wrote:What a cool idea. Using a map you've found somewhere and adding little blobs to click on and go to.

Actually, that's fairly close to the area I intend to cover in Bloodbane. Spooky!

Jan wrote:

Please! Don't make me to do this! I've been trying to resist joining this time-consuming activity for months... please... don't say it again... I've got work... and family... and friends... and a dog... and a garden... I should do some sport... I can't just sit at computer... But I'm strong. As strong as a... as a... a rock. I'll resist. I know it... I hope.

Eh... please, could you put down the banner of yours advertising KoL? It's making me nervous. Anxious. You know.

Aww, I know you only have the weekends to do stuff! Don't worry, you aren't missing anything. Really. Not compared to gardens.

you know.. there's another tool out there that has source code available and makes pretty DM stuff.. and a certain local user who's always around and always willing to chat about it... that just might be able to solve those out doors issues... maybe..

That's true, but with several years tinkering in RTC and hundreds of hours of conceptual work done, I'm not going to switch engines now. With limited spare time, it's just not practical unfortunately.

and what if she, if willing, did the tinkering and you the remaining art?

Are you talking about DMJava or DSB? If the former, sorry, but that's just not my thing. If the latter, that's really never gonna happen since it requires a coding head to build stuff, and I just want to point and click on things in an editor

as I said, code head helps with code stuff, art head does art stuff

my point being that both of you need motivators to keep you working on your project.. why not combine efforts??