[Custom dungeon] The Tower of Champions [RTC] [Adamski]

[Gambit37]

What kind of objects would you use this approach for? There's not much that you want to convert to NULL surely? And "Ooooooooooooooooh" -- another clone!

[Adamski]

Lord_BoNes, in last version of my game there is room for other 700 objects. If I copy a tile with 7 objects (items, triggers ecc..), I can paste the content in other 100 blank tiles. After that nothing happens, if I use the command "paste" nothing appears in the selected tile. In an old version this number was about 200, and during the test the game used to freeze when new objects were created inside the dungeon (for example breaking objects containing many other items). I've never used the lifetime feature, but it's complicated to use to correct this problem: I can't destroy relays, triggers and actions.
Lai and Gambit:

Spoiler

no magic for carring the key, it weights "only" 100 kg; maybe a magic help to b.... ... ....; when you see a mirror whit a treasure chest it means that you are near a treasure room (they are 13 in the game) or near the mechanism to open its gate

[Adamski]

Zed, use the spoiler function when you write, please.

Spoiler

I don't understand your problem with the dart: it's tiny, you have to push exactly this little point. The scroll is not a bug: when you throw it, it activates an action, create an item on floor (the dart); you must specify what the scroll must become after throwing: another scroll; but it becomes a default scroll, which is empty. The chair must be a steel chair to break the wall! The stick is too big to push the button and the belt... there could be many reason for this

For Lai: the priest guild is filled of hints; read everything.

And now some news: coming soon the version 1.2, but only for whom hasn't yet downloaded any version. Who is playing with another version (except the 1.1, with a bug in a rune) can keep playing with it. Why another version? I'm not fully satisfied with the previous ones. In the new version I'm further balancing the food and correcting some light errors. But after that I will stop making new versions until somebody finishes the game and give me a global opinion about the food-money-monster balancing or find serious errors (I hope not)

1.0 no food balancing; too few torches
1.1 bugged (you can't get the bro rune)
1.1.1 balanced food (maybe too much food) but still little errors; some areas too hard
1.2 late morning, fully balanced, corrected teleport "errors", added a new feature in the mage guild

[Adamski]

I agree Zed, there isn't logic, but it's a game. The same when you find scrolls with notes and clues in every skeleton you met; or when an adventurer with 5 energy points enters into a lethal dungeon without weapons and pratically naked...
Good idea the picture of a woman, I will put it in my next dungeon

[Lai]

do i play the bugged version?

[Adamski]

It depends: when did you download? The bugged version was online between 12 and 14 o'clock. The menu screen is the same for the 1.1 and 1.1.1 (I forgot to change)

[Adamski]

Good news Lai: I was wrong. I updated the game to the 1.1.1 version yesterday at 12.15, I've read my old post. The bugged 1.1 version was released at about 10 o' clock, yesterday morning.

[Adamski]

Gambit, I'm really surprised of your complaints. Did you find so many difficulties in a 2x2 room with only 10 items? Do you need 1 hour to try every possible action?

Spoiler

The solution is written inside the scroll.

You should have more imagination:

Spoiler

the scroll could have a wooden support to be rolled and, inside it, could be the dart; throwing the scroll its wooden part breaks and reveals the dart; or maybe the dart is a tiny needle sticked into the paper.

Lai: read ALL the messages found in the guild

A change:
Version 1.2 coming tonight

[beowuuf]

Actually, remember the scroll says not to throw anything away!

[Gambit37]

These aren't complaints, it's called constructive criticism. I'm sorry if you don't like what I've said, I'm sharing my views on how this could be made more logical. Yes, sure, we can use our imagination, and I don't disagree with that, but I honestly think it's a bit stupid to make a core progression puzzle rely on

Spoiler

someone throwing a scroll

-- it's not an action many people would think of and it's not very logical. Similarly with the cheese --

Spoiler

I never saw the rat behind the portcullis, so had no idea he was there. It was sheer desperation that I started throwing all the items and when the cheese landed by the portcullis, the rat appeared

. These are very clever mechanisms, and raised a smile in me AFTER they happened, but I wouldn't have guessed them as solutions. Perhaps it's because they aren't normal DM type puzzles -- perhaps I'm expecting DM type puzzles too much?

You mentioned earlier that you're not bothered by logic and that the defence for that was "It's a game." You seem to be missing the fact that games still need to be logical for people to work them out and some of what you've created relies on people having to mind-read the designer. It shouldn't work like that, the player should be able to work through standard acions in the context of the game world and not have to wonder what crazy mindset the designer was in at the time

You have some wonderful ideas in this great custom adventure and I'm looking forward to playing the next version when I have some time. But I am of the character that offers constructive criticism and I usually do so. It is not meant in a harsh way but I understand that people sometimes read it like that. If you would prefer me not to, then I shall keep quiet.

[Adamski]

No beowuuf, I've changed the message: now, when

Spoiler

Alexei examines it, he says: "This scroll is useless, I'll throw it away"

[beowuuf]

Lol, then that's a hint

[beowuuf]

perhaps I'm expecting DM type puzzles too much?

I think Adamski actually warned the playtesters the first room was not DM like at all, so I was looking for alternative methods from the start.

So perhaps if that's written into the readme or a hint file, if not before, then expectations can maybe be shifted.

[Gambit37]

Actually, remember the scroll says not to throw anything away!

No it doesn't, in the version I played, and the one I'm commenting on, it says "Never give up hope."

No beowuuf, I've changed the message: now, when

Spoiler

Alexei examines it, he says: "This scroll is useless, I'll throw it away"

See? That's how constructive criticism works. Thanks for making it make sense now

EDIT: Oh, hang on. you mentioned

Spoiler

EXAMINE

.

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You mean putting the scroll on the player's eye? You seem to have forgotten then that you can also read a scroll by putting it in the action hand. I didn't EXAMINE the scroll because I didn't need to, I could read it right there from my hand

.

[Adamski]

Gambit, actually in your version (I think it's the 1.0) there is that hint when

Spoiler

you examine the scroll

. It was absent only in the beta version... Anyway, I'd agree with you if these riddles were in a huge labyrinth with many rooms and corridors, but they are in a little cell without any visible way of escape. I want the player gets desperate in that situation.

Edit:
Yes,

Spoiler

examine

. But maybe I can activate an action by putting the scroll in the hand (convert when you equip or unequip in RTC editor): I haven't thought this easier way...

[Gambit37]

Yes, see my previous point about

Spoiler

EXAMINE. You haven't taken into account that you can also read the scroll from your hand, so some players won't ever EXAMINE it...

this is why the onus is on the designer to PREDICT alternate actions by the player -- and NOT penalise them simply because they didn't "try everything."

[Adamski]

My purpose was making a different game experience. It is based on idea like these: http://www.fasco-csc.com/index_e.php (I don't know if I can link external pages, it's a japanese site I've found about 1 year ago). Try crimson and viridian rooms, they are really nice. I couldn't put similar ideas during the game (it would be absurd and impossible to explain in the story), so I decided to create this situation at the beginning. First version of my game started

Spoiler

in front of the dragon

[Gambit37]

Ah yes, those "Rooms" puzzles were great -- we all played them here in the forum a few years ago.

I hope you don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to be mean about your work. You've got lots of great ideas. What I'm trying to do with my constructive criticism is to show you that having good ideas isn't quite enough -- you also need to learn to predict alternate player actions and account for them. This is what makes the difference between a good designer and a great designer.

[Gambit37]

I'll move all the spoiler stuff into a new thread

[Adamski]

Thanks Gambit

[Gambit37]

OK, I've moved most of the game related spoilers/hints to a new thread. In *this* thread, I've kept the other discussions about the difficulty of the game, and discussions about the new versions/updates as this make most sense. There may be a little crossover where I missed a post, but hopefully it will all read OK!

Other users: Please post questions/hints/spoliers in the new thread:
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... 31&t=28357

[beowuuf]

Managing to carry on with the dungeon, and still liking the build up of the story (heoronimous's house, the arena, etc)

Got me spellbook! Got the warrior's clan key.Got the ven rune (that was fun). Loved the screamers, and a certain underground-welling plant with a certain fruit. The screamers were scary! The 'dungeon' just has a nice atmosphere and layout, especially the cross-connections.

There are a few dead ends (apparently) where you cannot get back up from some of the pits in the graveyard. I notice the tankards in the shop run out (I'm using 1.0, so not important, although worried for my game if I can't solve the water part soon)

Anyway, just wanted to say progress. Somehow I got deeper in the thieves guild than I can get now...can't get back to the 12 stars area now...weirdness...

[Adamski]

There are a few dead ends (apparently) where you cannot get back up from some of the pits in the graveyard.

There are two tombs without ladder: corrected 1 of them, the other one has a message that warns you

I notice the tankards in the shop run out

Corrected in 1.1 version

Somehow I got deeper in the thieves guild than I can get now...can't get back to the 12 stars area now...weirdness...

Maybe you got deeper using one of the teleports in the great hall: they created many problems, I've changed the destination of those teleports in the 1.2 version

Thanks beowuuf

[Adamski]

New version! I've changed so many things that it's better naming it 2.0 instead 1.2

Changes:
- food better balanced
- rebuilt the guild of mages with a new magic object and a better challenge
- removed some dead ends
- removed a riddle that could cause the definitive loss of some objects
- added new hints
- put another VI rune in a more logical place
- more items to sell
- other little changes

I raccomend this version for the players that want to start their first game, but also for the players which haven't yet opened the tower gate.

[Adamski]

Ok, updated the link.

You can consider this the real definitive version. It was very hard for me finding out all the mistakes and the dead ends. The design is so complicated that changing a little thing, as a relay, you can spoil a level and, in some cases, the whole game.

[Gambit37]

Wow, this sounds like it's the most complicated RTC dungeon ever built! I try to keep things as simple as possible

Great news on 2.0 -- I don't have any time at the moment to play it, but next week I'll try it out.

[Adamski]

Gambit, when you will finish the game i'll send you the txt file, so you can understand what I mean

[Lai]

Tower of Chaos are in my opinion the worthy next part of the original DM!
i cannot believe that this are written and designed from ONE OF US.
i am a little bit sad that he build this after sooo many years "DM" appears for all of us.
if he build the same game after 2 years "CSB" eg "DMII" original, he would be gain much money...

but cause he wont gain this, he will gain my faithful compliment,tribut and honour to build this one.

i hope that nobody are frightened who build a "normal dungeon" like i do/worked at it, and dont want to release cause
its nothing in behaviour of this one.

ps: i like german "weihnachtsmarkt"

[Bit]

Who cares for money - as long as someone spends some 'Glühwein' at the 'Weihnachtsmarkt'

[Adamski]

Update!!!