Dungeon Master Forum

Not sure I want to go all the way back up...sounds like some kinda trap or something Perhaps when I finally finish I will try that from a previous saved game just to find out what happens. Currently in the area to the left as Ameena mentioned and have managed to take out some of the beasts. Hoping to get some time to play today.

I hope that is not true, because if it is, it is stupid beyond belief as it violates the premise of DM which was Theron's attempt to retrieve the firestaff and return it to Liberstratus (Lord Order) on the surface. In playing the dungeon, you learn through the scrolls that there is a better solution, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to do it. If the orignial developers hadn't intended this to be posible, they wouldn't have placed the code to handle it in the game. Call me a purist, but if you make a engine based on DM creatures, items, etc, but change the story of DM, to call it DM is in my opinion fraud. I'll just add this to the list of reasons of why I don't bother with RTC.

Phoenix, you're talking about the "bad end" you get when returning to the surface with the incomplete firestaff. You can still do that in RTC.
Once you've merged the firestaff with the power gem, you're supposed to be sealed in, and you normally are-- RTC just fixed a small exploit.

Sophia,
There's the kicker, I don't view it as an exploit. The result is the same regardless of the completeness of the firestaff. Anything that I can do in the original, I should be able to do in a clone. I'm a collector, so my typical endgame is to complete the firestaff, and then do a top to bottom check to see if I missed any items to add to my collection in the dragon's lair. If I'm going for archmaster, I want access level 3's worms and screamers. I'm not doing anything that the original DM didn't allow.

I'm a collector, so my typical endgame is to complete the firestaff, and then do a top to bottom check to see if I missed any items

CSBWin will let you know about any items or monsters
that you have left behind. See the menu item:
Misc/Non-CSB items remaining. You can check to
see that everything is safely on the bottom level and
that all monsters are removed.

Phoenix wrote:The result is the same regardless of the completeness of the firestaff.

I should point out that this actually is not true. The incomplete firestaff and the complete firestaff are distinct items in the game engine, and the triggers that cause the "bad end" to happen only respond to the incomplete firestaff. You can walk right up to the dungeon's front door with the complete firestaff and the door will not open-- almost certainly because the designers did not actually intend anyone to be able to get back up there with the completed firestaff.

RTC does show monsters missed, but not items. I don't know how many times one person can play the original dungeon master, usually a few times is enough

I'd like to get through just once at this point

If you have the gemmed Firestaff, you have all that you need to complete the game - it's just a matter of manoeuvring yourself and Lord Chaos into the correct positions to actually finish it . If you are having trouble, here is a spoilered description of how I tend to finish it - note that other people will have techniques that work for them, but this is just how I've ended up doing it myself .

Spoiler

Step out into the main room of Level Thirteen (Chaos's level), which really only consists of a couple of short corridors and the main room itself. The corridor from one of the stairways is a few squares shorter than the other and you can actually see into the room from the other end of it. Note that no creature will step out of the main room (the only two types that can move are the Demons and LC himself). Follow the right-hand wall (as best you can around the Fire Elementals) till you're nearly at the corner and you should find an area around there (near a pillar, I think) where you can stand and have four empty squares around you. Hopefully you'll get lucky and there won't be any Demons there as well.
I normally find I can stand there pretty safely for a while - stand in the "middle" square (so you have empty squares all around you) and cast Fluxcage in three of the four surrounding squares. Every few seconds or so, repeat this so the Fluxcages don't fade. I find it useful if the un-Caged square is one that looks out on a nearby wall, so that LC won't start lobbing spells at you from miles away. See, LC almost seems to treat Fluxcages like walls. Eventually, he should wander over and find you. Wait until he steps into that one empty square, then quickly cast the final Fluxcage into it and step back a single space - he should step forward after you, into the central square which you just vacated. Then all you need to do is hit Fuse and you're done .

Another way

Spoiler

is to take advantage of the small room with two doors.

Here was my first DM completed, with Chani Elija Darou and Wu Tsé. Original DM on Atari ST.

Chaos can teleport two squares to escape fusion. A single
wall or door should not stop him. That's how I remember the
code working.

I remember just flux caging everything there was until I couldn't see , but try fluxing from the far corner then towards the room outside the walls before forcing him in the room, then get em, it may help. I found it hard to do no matter what I did.

I don't tend to like moving around in the big room much because I get blown up by Demons or snagged repeatedly by Fire Elementals - I don't know if I've ever even been to the far left corner from the entrance, lol.

Do you know, I never actually knew that, lol.

Thanks everyone...it has been a hard battle so far. I have beaten most of the demons - there is at least one left that I know of.

Spoiler

I am currently in the small room at the top left corner.

. Will keep trying...could use a bigger rabbit's foot

Well in my own defence, before my last post the last time that I had visited the outer door was 1986, and I never revisited that door with the completed firestaff until now. Once you've seen that ending, there really isn't much of a point to revisiting it. That being said, I'll hold to my opinion that clone developers shouldn't be in the habit of trying to fix the DM dungeon, but instead should be concentrating on encourgaging others to make custom dungeons with their engine. I liken it to a form of revisionist history. At the very least, said changes should be documented to let people know that what they are playing differs from the original. If not, I encourge people to seek out the Atari/Amiga emulators and play the true versions and only use the clones for custom dungeons.

As for fusing Lord Chaos, I first attack him, and then completely ignore him while fluxcaging in every direction. Don't stop moving, and keep adding fluxcages until he enters into a completed cage, then fuse him. Get him to chase you instead of trying to corner him. If you need to have him back off so that you can heal your party, you can get him to teleport at anytime by fusing him, even without fluxcages. There's one only one issue with this tactic in that, he sometimes has a bad habit of teleporting into black flames. I have a savegame where he is completely removed from the level until you dispell the black flame that blocks him from manifesting.

About clones and Lord Chaos.
With RTC, Lord Chaos AI is buggy.
After I had lost all but one party member, I fought toe to toe with him, while he was missing most of the time, shooting to the wrong side.
My champion was pretty strong, able to take the blows, with enough time to heal with potions and recover mana. This lasted a long time, then I got bored and quit.
I was near killing Lord Chaos; That was a RTC version in which LC was killable but had a very high health. I know players did kill him.

RTC isn't a perfect versin of DM anyway, as it was made from scratch and goig mostly by memory and stuff. That's why ranged spells do so much more damage - I got stuck at the beginning of Level Ten (the "...the Deceiver, the Snake" bit) the last time I played DM under RTC because I'd kill the Beholder(s) but then have to run away back upstairs and have a rest, only to find that the Beholders had all respawned when I got back so I couldn't get any further - they were practically one-shotting me. Switched to CSBWin for my next attempt at the game and it was nice to play the "proper" Atari version again. I think I probably played all the way through DM and CSB then but can't remember. I have managed it in RTC, though. Have never tried the DM-RTC (with the spellbook) though, just DM-Original.
What happened in RTC if you killed Lord Chaos? Did it basically just mean you couldn't finish the game at all?

That was a RTC custom game where I was near to kill Chaos.
In a RTC custom game, the designer may choose other ends from the usual Lord Chaos fluxcage-fuse bit.

in version .49 he is invincible unless the designer changed it otherwise.
I am not sure a black flame and chaos can be on the same tile, when set to invincible and he stands in center only, which should kill him but can't so the game will freeze. this error I have not found a good way to get rid of. there must be a way to correct that, but how eludes me.

I believe what DM needs to grow is story, instead of just obliterating everything that come across the parties path, there has to be some sort of story. the original does not offer that, it's a hack and slash with little bit of story that is not interactive, and today hack and slash is not desired anymore as it use to be.

if we're lucky we'll see some sort of change, we need new blood in order to interest the world we'll have to come up with more than just plain DM. I played it three times on the Amiga, that's enough for me and for most people, they play only once. so something new has to happen, something with story and interaction.

who wants to play the same game over and over?

who wants a dungeon that has story and explains who everyone is and where they belong? and relate to the original.

Being a newbie here I can't comment on your discussions on different versions etc. I am still trying to finish my first attempt (haven't had much time this week). That being said, I can't imagine playing it again unless to see how the different versions work. I will probably move onto the next one, then check out some of the custom dungeons as that sounds interesting to me. I personally would prefer more story and perhaps different creatures and options...a little less killing and a little more thinking. I like the riddles/puzzles and would love to see a little more of that - maybe some of the custom dungeons already offer that? I dunno

Bear in mind that when this game came out in 1987, it was "ahead of its time" and stuff, and was really epic back then . At least it does have a story, even if it's a case of RTFM in order to actually realise that (which I never did when I was a kid - game manuals were boring...except for the bestiaries, which tended to have cool pictures of all the monsters ). I think the idea of adding in features to make a game replayable sort of evolved a bit later, and these days many games have variants on "Achievements" aimed at getting people to be completionists and do All of the Things in order to tick all the boxes or whatever. I don't tend to bother paying much attention to them, though. If I enjoy a game, I'll replay it in a few years' time when I get the urge to do so.

I don't know where my manual and coin are, but my DM floppy says "copyright 1986", so that's date I referenced.

As others have posted, DM has a story in the user manual, but it's hard to get away from the killing and still be DM.
The biggest problem with story/puzzle driven games is unless they have multiple paths and endings, once you've played it once, there are no surprises (7'th Guest comes to mind). DM can be considered a training game where you learn the basics of how to cast spells, make potions, and defeat the various creatures. Once you are trained, you move on to CSB where the difficulty increases. In general, the puzzles are harder and the creatures are tougher. DM has one dragon, while CSB has at least 13 by my count. Creatures also attack you in groups more often in CSB. Once you have CSB under your belt, you can move on to the custom dungeons. Conflux is one of the hardest of the custom dungeons, and it has it's own story, custom spells and crratures, and multiple endings. It pushes the edge of what can be done with a DM/CSB dungeon. Blackflame and The Towers of Chaos are also excellent.

In regards to replaying DM/CSB, what I do is to add additional requirements like collect all the items/weapons, don't eat anything but renewable food (ie. no apples, bread, corn, cheeze and steaks), don't use any rings, ful/ven bombs, and magic boxes, play with one or two champions, take the weakest champion, etc. Since you started with RTC, you can also try replaying using CSBwin and DSB.

Thanks...appears to be many options to keep me playing. Now if I could just finish the first one....hopefully time to play this weekend

If things go right you could have the game complete within a minute - all you need to do is deal with Lord Chaos and you're done .
Then you can (if you want to) import your party into CSB and start that. Heh...and good luck doing so .

Ok so I know it has been quite some time since I last posted. Sadly had not had much time to play and was quite frustrated in trying to finish the game. But the good news is...I FINALLY FINISHED IT!!! Seems like it took forever but once I sat down and just kept trying and trying and trying again I was able to "deal" with Chaos. Yahoo! Feels good to have been able to complete it! Thanks to everyone who helped me out along the way...really do appreciate all of your help!

congrats WZ. now you'll have to make a decision of what is the next dungeon you'll play, that's if you have the time. like most of us, we find it difficult to get around doing everything.

Woohoo, gratz . That was just normal DM, wasn't it? So next up, CSB (and you can import your existing party rather than creating a new one if you want to).

And now the real fun will begin Good luck!