[Custom dungeon] The Tower of Champions [RTC] [Adamski]

[linflas]

finally had time to start it really tonight and... god, that's a serious one !
absolutely awesome creepy sound ambiance, i really enjoy being afraid like this !

[Lai]

does the download work?
it says me "you cant download this file at this moment"

edit:
it work now

[Adamski]

I found a little error in the tower basement due to a missing trigger: when you go next to a windows in the hall of the champions, there is a trigger that activates the wind sound; near there should be another trigger that disables that sound, but I've forgotten, so you can hear the wind sound everywhere, also in the phantom cellar.
Solution: this trigger should be in both the doors of the hall of champions, but it's missed only in one of them; you should pass in the correct door to stop this annoying sound: it is the door next to the tower gate.
It's easy forgetting something in this dungeon, it's too complicated

Spoiler

[Gambit37]

Wow! I think I'll stick to my simple puzzles

[PaulH]

That's mad! My mechanisms are far simpler lol

[Trantor]

Yeah, I cannot compete either. As a proof of my hypogenitalism, here are the two most complex images of my dungeon I can come up with:

[PaulH]

I don't think Tower of Chaos had that many relays or counters in the whole game!

[Gambit37]

Adamski, did you build your game with a plan in mind, or just make it up as you went along. Also, how long have you worked on ToC? I'm curious to get an idea of how others build dungeons...

[PaulH]

I think there must be several hundred hours work there, if not over a thousand. This is what is probably going to set it apart from most current RTC releases, but I truly believe you could get 90% of the effect for 10% of the effort.

[Adamski]

Gambit, I had a general idea of the dungeon and added new ideas when they came. Many parts have been rebuilt 3 or 4 times because I found easier way to make them. I've worked for about 2 years.

I truly believe you could get 90% of the effect for 10% of the effort

Paul, do you mean the scenic effect or the mechanisms? About the mechanisms, perhaps there are events achievable by a less complicated relay-counter system.

Trantor, your second image is as mad as mine

[PaulH]

Possibly a bit of both. I really appreciate the work of course, but I feel you quickly get into dimishining returns after a point. However as I said previously, it is this little extra that for does set it just ahead of other RTC designs I have seen.

[Adamski]

Thanks Paul. However the next chapter (the conclusion of the story) will be less ambitious, with less decorations and mechanisms. It will look like a classical DM dungeon, or better still, CSB with new wallsets: a harder underground labyrinth with more puzzles.

[Zyx]

I've been playing it for the last few days and I'm impressed! Lot of work to achieve a convincing depth of detail, nice touches, clever and thematic puzzles. I like the background story and the coherent interconnectivity.
Though the graphic styles don't always blend well, they add meaning and variety, and the challenge of marrying outdoors with indoors is well managed (the first time I saw the daylight from the exit of the cave I was stunned!).
All the monsters have a "personnality" and require adapted tactics. Fights are interesting - but sometimes long, but I think it's inherent to the RTC engine -.
The gameplay, tough but well balanced (water, food, fights, spells), yields a constant feeling of progression.
The traps are hard and unforgiving, and one must die a lot to find their solution, but they give a rewarding sense of achievement once mastered.
Everything seems packed in tiny maps, I'm curious to see them one day.
2 years of work ? I'm not surprised!

[Zed5Duke]

So 2.0 is last version? ok i will play it again.

What program yopu used for wallsets? Some year ago i used Sophia WHACK but now it seem not work or am do something wrong.

[Gambit37]

RTCWM for wallsets, by Linflas. I'm not sure where the links are these days.

[Zed5Duke]

This is most frustrating game i ever played 1/10

[beowuuf]

Is that a joke score, or are you not gelling with the dungeon? Where have you got to?

[PaulH]

This is most frustrating game i ever played 1/10

Is that because it doesn't have the same 3 puzzles repeated throughout 20 levels?

Stick with it, it is good!

[Gambit37]

Zed, are you using v2.0? It's much better because you get torches quite quickly and can actually see things now

Based on your own dungeons, it's obvious you like short, quick adventures. But do try and give this one a go -- it's got a very rich background and so many different things to do. It really will need a few months of playing to get the most out of it, I'm sure!

[Adamski]

Zed, if you want I can send you a copy of the .txt file, so you will able to make a game that can be to your liking: for example removing the 90% of the food or multiplying the monster health by 10.

[Gambit37]

If you're sharing the TXT file, you'll need to supply all your custom assets too. A TXT file on it's own without all the supporting assets is not very usable because the editor will create too many errors and warnings.

[Adamski]

I know Gambit. It was only a joke

[Gambit37]

I can't tell in text!

[Zed5Duke]

Its not joke, but facts, i found several wrong concepts at very begining, and am suppose full game have them hundreads. Here few examples:

I see you modified

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scroll

in version 2.0 only good change are new fonts, but what the difference when its still VERY bad concept:
-it create

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dart

each time you

Spoiler

throw it

, maybe game become so slow because i made them several?
-and this

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dart

cant be used as weapon, why? because its made to

Spoiler

press buttons

?
-you must press button not

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edge but middle of dart

, otherwise you cant hit it and

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alcove

not appear, so whats the point?
-why create extra

Spoiler

dart

anyway if you have sharp

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stick

? Well it look sharp, but if not then prisoner could break it to become enough sharp
-scroll dont tell that is made for

Spoiler

dart creating

, so player may ignore it as stupid message
-player may put

Spoiler

scroll

to backpack or place it on floor and it will not work, it must be solved in very unexpected way, exacly as creator want and he give clue which may be easy missunderstand and ignored

Problems with light:
Player MUST hide candle to backpack and use it only short time to look around, if he hold it longer and it burns out then another candle found will give nothing, because one candle create zero light (ok 0,1) and THIS IS DEAD END! no light, then play game again. Thats was when i played game first time, am stuck in dark corridor. And when come to underground where could get experience, even two candle give almost nothing, and one totally zero so you must fight in total darkness, its not just difficulty but frustrating.

Weird rope:
This concept is possible ONLY in game world, but physicaly impossible in real world. Person who try to descend on stuff like that will only cut his fingers. It only shown how limited is imagination of creator. I really laught when i seen it first time.

Moment when i stop playing:
It was escaping from

Spoiler

dragon

, am not sure why this dungeon work so slow, maybe because huge RTC file? So i have long delays between press arrow and movement. In result when situation become fast it was total chaos and i died here dozen times. Well somehow i was able to reach door but found something which was bad joke. The same as previously not just difficulty but frustrating. And with that game speed totally impossible. Ok maybe i could spend here few more hours and once have enough luck, but where is fun? Am not crazy to torture myself playing this.

I dont played all, but already i can say: some moments was great +10 but also terrible moments -9 so in result = 1/10 Am not say it have only bad parts and nothing good, because its few parts was very inspiring and ipressive. Its exacly the same as with DM2 with was full of graphic and mechanic but somehow i feel it much worst from DM1.

[Adamski]

This is most frustrating game i ever played

Zed, in an old post Jan wrote about your Sheleton Key:

I enjoyed (again) Zed's sense of humour

I agree with him

[Gambit37]

I agree with Zed about the first room -- despite a few small changes in v2.0, it *IS* very contrived and unless you exactly mind-read the designer, it's impossible to solve. There should be more flexibility in the first room. For example, why can't I use a chair or plank to smash the wall? If a small hammer works, a chair certainly would!

The light problem is better in v2 as you can get torches fairly soon -- but I agree that candles are pretty useless. They also shouldn't burn when in the backpack. I mentioned previously that light should not be a hard problem to overcome early in the game. Remember that DM gives you the magic torch spell and real torches right before you enter the main dungeon -- there's a good reason for that!Having the player frustrated early on is NOT a good idea.

As for the weird rope -- well, I think that's fine. So what if it's not realistic? It's pretty clever.

I too have experienced incredible slow down -- in the Dragon cave and elsewhere. My computer is quite old, so I guess Adamski's development machine is much newer and he doesn't get this problem. I can play almost every other RTC dungeon without this slow down problem, so I'd suggest trying to find ways of reducing the number of background mechanics and number of items where possible.

Zed, I was similarly frustrated using v1. But v2 is much better and I'd really suggest you stick with it if you can -- it gets a lot better as you progress with some very cool ideas. And while I agree with some of your observations, at the end of the day, I guess we have to understand that different players like different levels of puzzle and realism. For example, I don't like any of your recent dungeons: unbalanced fights, weak characters, no food, no atmosphere.

There are things that Zed can learn from Adamski, and vice versa. But the final observation is that you can't keep all the people happy all the time. As a dungeon builder, you should build the dungeon that you would want to play.

[PaulH]

i found several wrong concepts at very begining, and am suppose full game have them hundreads

You suppose wrong.

It only shown how limited is imagination of creator

Oh, the irony.

I suppose you can't have any questionable concepts in a dungeon if it doesn't actually have any concepts.

[beowuuf]

Easy, Zed's early dungeons have quirks and puzzles and new ways of doing things, and he flags ones that don't. Let's not turn this into a flame war if the two dungeon designers aren't

[PaulH]

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I feel some of the post was disrespectful and somewhat hypocritical.

[Adamski]

PaulH, I think Zed is joking . I imagine he laughing in front of his screen while is typing and, at the same time, making 2 or 3 dungeons for the week end.
I'd like to finish this discussion, it is sterile. The important thing is that nobody is forced to play my dungeon.