Dungeon Master Forum

RTC has the feature, so if you load up the editor you should be able to pull the graphics from there via screen grab or other means.

Rasmus wrote:

I am playing CSB now are a little bit annoyed over not having the map-scroll.. So I was thinking about inserting it into the game.. Does anyone has a screenshot of what the map looks like on CSB for amiga?

My thoughts about the map in DM: Map feature is rather always cool (well, not always.. it depends of the game type.. sometimes it makes the game too easy). In CSB Amiga map was usefull, but implemented in a bit wrong way.. What I mean is that when you change your direction (NSEW), the map also changes direction to the viewport. It`s making a mess. I think it would be better if the map is unchanged (always N), but it`s the party that is changing position on a map marked by either /\ (facing N), \/ (facing south), < (facing west) and > (facing east). But then again, original CSB mapping might actually be good for 3D game..! It`s hard to say. Oh and one more: the map might be filled while exploring the dungeon, like it was in Black Krypt.

Does anyone has a screenshot of what the map looks like on CSB for amiga?

You can also see all the elements for building the magic maps in the extracted data of CSB for amiga or DM 3.6.

CSB Amiga map was usefull, but implemented in a bit wrong way..

I do not agree with you Adamo. I prefer the map always showing me the same direction as what I see in the viewport, it is more logical and more pratical. Also, in CSB, the magic map is here to help you finding your way or building your own maps : remember that there are many invisible teleporters that send you in other levels. With an automap (which is different from the DM magic map) that would be somewhat weird to see you jumping maps from maps, and that would destroy some of the fun in CSB, isn't it?
I think FTL integrated correctly this map.

When you play DM2, you can use the magic map while you're moving around, I am sure I don't want the map to be just a 'static' map.

Rasmus:
The magic map has 4 spells, there might be described somewhere at dmweb : http://dmweb.free.fr/?q=node/195.

I was thinking of something like this:
The party is marked on a map facing North, South, East, West respectively. The map is always faced North.
<deleted - MyPics doesn`t work>

Thanks for the screenshoot Sphenx, and it is good that you pointed out about the map spells, had forgotten them otherwise.
At first I will make the map as it was in CSB, facing in the same direction as the party..
But there is no problem inserting options for how the map should be handled, it would accually be easier for me creating a map where north always is north as you pointed out Adamo, and maybe a text or arrow that shows in what direction the party is facing.
I was also thining about a map when you move around. Just putting it in your hand it will be visible at the actionbar just like any other weapons, and pressing on it and it will show a map.. When activated it will take both the weaponspace and the runespace to be able to fit..

Btw: Adamo, your two images aren't working..

why not go with the map fulscreen with overlay like in doom?
edit : this should have been fullscreen not ful screen
btw, nice party Sphenx

@Zoom: That would be easier to insert because I already have power over the viewport, but first I have to fix some other details and then the map and then extra features.

I haven't been working so much on it this weekend, but I did fix the floor and walls so that they look more dm like and not so flat.


I have also fixed the fakewall blackening of the screen..

- I have also noticed that the pits are not visible when they are on the direct side of the party, this will be fixed.
- Roofpit missing.
- Item and monster offset are slightly wrong.
- Worms and other monsters that takes up two squares are in a incorrect position in the tile.

this one should work:

That one looks nice Adamo.. Should be easy to insert..
But keep the screenshoots until then

I think the DM map keeps you in the world, a locked map feels like a game map.

I agree beo.. I myself would prefere a map that turn as the party turns, otherwise the compass would be useless.. But Adamo, what do you think about inserting north, west, south, east on the map but that it still turns around.. But that this feature only gets avalible when the party have a compass in the inventory..

I was also thinking about insering the feature of two-handed fighting, I have checked the space in original DM, and it fits two weapon icons per champion below the runespace and above the movement arrows..

I am only thinking about inserting these stuff as extra features that can be switched back to original DM mode..
But when I read posts here about DM2, almost everyone seemed to like the posibility of two-hand fighting.. So I thought, why not?

Rasmus what have I done to you?!
It's obvious your goal is to make DSB useless

Sophia wrote:Rasmus what have I done to you?!

Perhaps you should try spending more time with Rasmus and less with Trantor on the chat.

Now I am feeling sad Sophia..
All I am doing is upgrading the graphics and trying to give it some extra effects..
DSB has still a million uses CSBWin can't compete with

Jan wrote:

Sophia wrote:Rasmus what have I done to you?!

Perhaps you should try spending more time with Rasmus and less with Trantor on the chat.

I'm innocent. This time.

Amazing work, Rasmus. It opens a new world of possibilities. Have you tested pure visual functions like peeking or jumping/crouching?

I am trying to make it as original as possible.. But after I have released the sourcecode, I could give it a try.. I don't think there will be any bigger problem inserting it..
But just to be sure.. You mean keep the square to square movement but beeing able to jump over squares and crouch under object? Or free movement?

Crouching under high fireballs or jumping under rampant spells would be nice, but what I was talking about were some camera movements to allow richer angles of vision.

That would be a cool feature It could be possible to create 45 degress turning and be moving in these angles. But changing the monster monster movements in the same way may requier some extra work If I would insert fully free movement I would have to change almost everything within CSBWin, and this is nothing I have any plans for now

Moving in novel ways, I think, would mean a complete redesign of dungeons and a whole new gameplay. Though it could be later an option for special dungeons, I would first stick with the original gameplay until everything works 100%.

Just having a different angle of view while you press a key, as if peeking, until releasing the key, would give interesting informations with minor changes to the gameplay. One of the possible changes would be that peeking around the corner would give a tiny opportunity of attack by an awaiting monster. By peeking I mean strafing a bit to the left or the right.
Crouching/jumping to avoid very high or very low projectiles - implying an altitude variation of projectile, à la RTC, and/or monsters throw at three different altitudes - ,would allow some gameplay based on reflexes without altering too much the main gameplay (I think).
Peeking and looking 45 degrees left and right would expand the prudent style of gameplay. Imagine you're hearing huge steps nearby. Wouldn't it be great to start peeking before each corners?
Looking up would be interesting too, - since we don't have much roof textures or ceiling decorations that would suffer from the parallax, and you can replace pits with 3d objects -, and would allow to put text or new 3d objects like lamps, or use higher ceilings... But maybe it would already corrupt too much the DM feeling.

Another thing worrying from your screenshots: wall and floor textures look pixelised and dirty. Will the old DM decorations fit correctly? Since you know where the camera is and the angle to the floor, can't you use the DM bitmaps to "flatten" them and obtain a texture that will look exactly as DM with the normal camera position and angle? (I'm not very clear here...)

I like these ideas about peeking, it is a easy fix that wouldn't need any alteration of CSBWin at all.. As it is now I have inserted about 20 lines into the original CSBWin code to make it work with the sourcecode I created to render the OpenGL view. I would like to keep it this way because it will make it much easier later on if anyone wants to import the OpenGL engine into some other version of CSBWin.

The pits and roofpits can also be made as 3D objects without any problems, the same goes for peeking up a roofpit or peeking down a floorpit..

All these changes will be inserted as options for the one who would like to create a dungeon in it..

I am still a little bit conserned about how I am going to create the editor for changing the graphics, as it is now I import all the graphics from graphics.dat. Except the walls, roofs, floor, mousehand and the DM2 direction arrows. But I guess I will have to make a some sort of an editor that creates an extern file that will coperate with the graphics.dat and dungeon.dat file..

You are accually very clear about the floor and wall texture.. The problem here was that I must use a 2D image of both floor and sidewalls. Trying to extract these directly from DM is a problem for someone like me with low artistic skill. They both have a perspective view that will have to be un-perspecivated (if that is a word ), and that result in one side that are very pixelated and one side that aren't. I couldn't use the dm floor because it has shadows that wouldn't fit the turning of the floor, so I had to make one of my own..
You can always download it and take a look at the textures in the mediafolder.. The version that is for download now doesn't have the sidewalltextures and also have a diffrent floortexture.. But the wall, floor and rooftexture can be changed into the resolution you would like too, and with enough artistic experience it could be made so close to original dm that it would be hard to tell the diffrence

I remember a tendative idea in RTC of faking heights - such as a creature on a dias that was attacking you, you could go up the dias to attack him, and then on the dias you would have creatures on the floor under you could throw range spells at before going back down. And of course the grapple in RTC changed the dynamic of going back up and down levels with ease. So a way to look and move up and down might make for some very interesting things.

Assuming a few designers came forward to use the functionality, of course

I'm certain there are skilled people here who can help you about the texture extraction.

if anyone wants to import the OpenGL engine into some other version of CSBWin.

Genius. If you tell me that this could work with conflux (that is, csbgraphics.dat, skins, custom portraits, overlays, supplementary monsters, palette changes and decorative DSA) I will follow you to the end, to hell if that's our fate (or rather, as far to Conflux4). In witch case I would make a use of those optional functions and moves. But it's a long way from now.

@Beo: interesting ideas! That's something Adamsky or yourself could definitively exploit with RTC. Something like climbing a mountain, or rooms with no roof, going down a chasm through a staircase along its circumference, etc. Or recreating the Moria, or a fortress with high roofs, and i's ramparts, etc.

That's probably what I would do if we had the option to make a floor transparent, or rather large pits, that is, a complete absence of floor and/or ceiling, showing with the 3d engines what's below or above. Could you send fireballs right in the direction of you cursor? Would monsters see you from other levers if in line of sight? Maybe doable through dsa if Rasmus' engine draws the needed view and projectiles. A dsa could fake projectiles by calculating its 3d trajectory and ordering to draw the specified item in the viewport with the calculated size and position. Or it could even be an automatic DSA command, that checks if there is line of sight considering the party facing, the relative x, y, z coordinates, the walls, pits, open cells and void cells in the path, and the angle of view. Oh well I'm getting excited about it. Imagine a exhilarating spell of levitation! Imagine reaching the city in the clouds! We could make platform-gameplay dungeons. We would make a teaser: in 1987 DM was born. [insert cut scenes of significant moments of gameplay] Real time, spells, exploration. Now, the dungeon goes deeper [insert what seems a perfectly old school DM room, except an unusual big pit, and then a sudden looking down into it (45 degrees max to limit distortion of sprites), and we see a chasm with several levels of diminutive creatures. One of them in a lower cornice in front of us sees us, a vexirk for example, and throw a fireball upwards towards us. Then we show some other example of the new gameplay: for example, old moments of DM with the peeking option, meeting the dragon and crouching+looking up to see a fireball hurled right above our head, etc.

We could also have some 3d bosses, integrating the models of some DM clones in 3D.

So many things to do and so little time. I should go back to bug busting.

beowuuf wrote:I remember a tendative idea in RTC of faking heights - such as a creature on a dias that was attacking you, you could go up the dias to attack him, and then on the dias you would have creatures on the floor under you could throw range spells at before going back down. And of course the grapple in RTC changed the dynamic of going back up and down levels with ease. So a way to look and move up and down might make for some very interesting things.

Zyx wrote:@Beo: interesting ideas! That's something Adamsky or yourself could definitively exploit with RTC. Something like climbing a mountain, or rooms with no roof, going down a chasm through a staircase along its circumference, etc. Or recreating the Moria, or a fortress with high roofs, and i's ramparts, etc

The complexities of designing all the fake 3D/2d graphics to make this kind of thing look convincing is too massive a task. That's the reason no-one has a completed example. It would make more sense to do this kind of thing as 3D models for a 3D engine. A one-point perspective fake 3D environment as created in DM/RTC is simply not suited to the kinds of complex environments you suggest; believe me, I've tried!

Cows posted hypothetical graphics if I recall, but nothing that was ever realised. If it cannot be created natively in RTC with tricks, all the more reason to have the feature avaialble in this version

As said, the ability to look across a valley (something else I was going to have), or the ability to look out of a cstle or have a greater than one story space (also ideas I wanted) would be cool. Though I fear my dungeon design days are long gone

beowuuf wrote:Cows posted hypothetical graphics if I recall, but nothing that was ever realised.

I'm not saying it can't be done -- it could with plenty of time and patience. Just that it's highly complex and non-trivial.

Gambit37 wrote:The complexities of designing all the fake 3D/2d graphics to make this kind of thing look convincing is too massive a task.

I could be wrong, but as I see it all the 45 degree distortion etc. would be made by the opengl layer from Rasmus, just like it is now with walls(turning) or wallitems on place0. Or do I not get there something?
Never say never. With things like conflux seeing the light of day I believe these additional graphics - or 3d models- can be made eventually.

Another thing is,playability should still be maintained. But I guess it will be fun to look down (or upwards) pits. At least all this is something to get excited about.

No, we were talking about trying to make convincing multil-level and complex environments in the original 2D engine. This thread has got a bit confusing!

Zyx: I will try to understand how the imported graphics works.. Right now I am not using it with the 3D.. But as I understand Conflux is done with alot of editing inside CSBWin, if this is the case and I get the imported graphics to work. I think you will be able insert my code into Conflux within an hour
The only problem may be to get the right floor, roof and wall texture at the right positions.. Because these textures are standalone right now and don't get imported from graphics.dat.. But I will see what I can do about it.

I have managed to insert an posibility to look down a pit, just by pressing on it with the mouse. It is still a bit simple because it doesn't show more than one level down (even if there are more pits below), and it doesn't show more than floors, walls, pits and teleporter.. But it will be fixed later.
Personally I think this feel very natural in DM to be able to look down a pit. I mean why shouldn't the party in reality be able to do it?
About launching fireballs in the pit direction, I really don't know how I would be able to do that yet, even if it is a cool idea.. If I where able to launch a fireball at the level below me, does it move then? Does the monsters take damage? Or do CSBWin only update missiles and monsters at the same level and then does some kind of speedupdate when the party enters the level?
These are the things I have to check out first, if it does update all levels below and above me, then I think it will be posible without making any major changes..

About using DSA.. I am alittle embarest, but I have no idea what DSA does or is because I have never used it.. I think I will have to check into this!

3D Bosses? Well, it would be nice.. And I can insert this posibility to without any major problems, but one thing at a time
Now you got my fired up Zyx Accually, everything like diffrent angles, levitating, 3d monsters, animated images at 60fps, looking at diffrent parts of the dungeon even if the party isn't there, diffrent kinds of light, burning torches, even animating the weapons that the champions fight with, can be made without any changes within the CSBCode, maybe only some "if" commands here and there should do it..
In this case it is up to me to be able to create an editor that can create everything from an original dungeon to everything mentioned above. Maybe I will make this my new project and let DMT rest for a while..

@Beo: Faking height sounds alittle abit simpler than having to create a whole new dungeon system Accually, this made me alittle bit interested in checking one thing out just for fun.. What if I added a bmp file with the next version that worked as a heightmap to the dungeon.. Light and dark colors in this could decide the dungeons height at certain points. I have done this with my 3D clones earlier, and if use the same technique I could have this fixed within an hour.. Thanks for the tip!

If a heightmap can be inserted, the roof can also be removed.. And with the right floor and wall textures and a skycube, we will have a mountain to climb. These things aren't that imposible accually, the only thing that is needed is a good editor. If CSBWin already had all the features as DM2 for example, there wouldn't be so much work for me to insert all the DM2 features in 3D.. If something tells me that something are at one specific square, I could easely insert this.. Well, I will have to take a look at this later. But if we have anyone that are willing to create an editor for me with posibilities like telling CSBWin3D what textures/3d models that should be uploaded and where to use them, we could team up and finish this project alot faster

New upload:
- I managed to create a 60 fps flow when moving around, I had to create a new timer within CSBWin to fix this.
- New textures for walls that are viewed from the side have been inserted.
- The fake walls are now working correctly when entering / leaving them.
- Monster offsets are now correct.
- Monsters that takes up two tiles within the square are now shown correctly.
- The item offset are now exactly the same as in DM, therefore the mouse are always pressing at the right position.
- Had to insert a limit for items lying on the floor. For each square there can be about 100 items and no more. This can make it seems weird, because when a chest is behind 32 wormrounds and when puting wormround nr 33 in the front, the chest disapere.. This is because otherwise the game may start to lag. But I will have to create some sorting to avoid these visual problems..
- Pits and roofpits are no longer images extracted from graphics.dat, instead they are real 3D models..
- It is now posible to look down a pit and see what is on the level below, not everything like monsters are shown below the pit.. But they are on the way..

Here is the download: http://dmtribute.webs.com/Files/CSBWin3 ... 01104).zip

And here is a screenshot:

This look down the pit is dramatically cool. We are all so familiar with the limited old looks, that this is a new dimension.
I really think that even with the old graphics, that way it brings the game to the present.
Simply overlaying the viewport - that is kinda heretic - and so genius simple...