Dungeon Master Forum

I haven't mentioned this before because, frankly, I thought it was such an obvious requirement that it simply was something that would appear as soon as there was time, but here goes:

Every time a new version of RTC comes out, I play it for days until I reach a bug somewhere that stops me opening a door, smashing a door, killing a creature, finding a key, using a teleport, or whatever.
George then finds the bug, fixes it and releases another version and we all have to start again because the saved game format is different. What's that about - annoying doesn't even come into it. I'm not bothering to play anymore because I KNOW that I won't be able to get to the end. Last time I played, I trained characters up to almost archmaster by training insanely all the time. And now it's all for nothing and I have to start again.

I would have thought that a simple utility to import and old version saved game into the new version would take minutes to write, you know the format of the two saved games. In a project like this (which is fantastic, by the way) I would've thought that such a utility would've been automatically included with each new version.

Rant ends

Interesting idea (i take it you mean like the patcher for DMJava does) , but it does run against the playtesting element as you have to go through the dungeon each time to pick up on errors anyway (aswell as test the gameplaying mechanics when gaining levels). I don't think George has ever claimed that the work was finished (maybe hoped it was close with v9, since he had it compatable with the previous version) so until he does then it's maybe extra work for not much return.

I agree that with stable versions that update because of suggestions and so on should get an upgraded save game utility though...though i don't know how much work that is...

Hi Beowuuf, long time no speak!

The source of that rant was probably having just downloaded the new version and got an error trying to continue my game - so I give up.

I realise this is a testing phase and you are right, I mean a utility like the patcher in DMJava. But some of us aren't playtesting - we are playing. If it's lots of work then fair play but as a programmer for a large part of my life I wouldn't think it would be much work. In fact, I used to regularly write editors for myself in PowerBasic years ago for games like EOB by hacking bytes in the save games and finding out what everything did - and it only took me a couple of hours to write an entire editor once I knew the save game format. Given that George allready knows the format and all we need is an import function I don't imagine it would take that long.

(side note: this frigging exboard pop up crud is really getting my pissed! It's hung my system twice in the past week and each pop up takes over the screen while you are writing, thus stoping you mid sentance.. :end gripe)

ahem.. now,

writing a patcher for this while it might be a decent idea.. I would have to think about it in this way. We have no idea as to what changes are made to the save game format each time. They could be small or large.. he would need to create a new program that he would need to update every single time he fixed a set of bugs. This is more or less increasing his workload for every single update.

George is already working on this in his sparetime and barely making getting each update out as it is. What you're suggesting is making the wait 4 months instead of two..

At any rate, I figure you are playing through a game you've played how many times before? not to mention completed.. and how many more times do you plan to play/complete this game? Is it so bad to have to start again? If so then so be it.. wait it out untill there is a more compltete and stable version.

No one is required to play test this game but those who do are putting somehting into it. As mentioned a few hundred times before, George is getting nothing out of this except experience and a few kind words.. The least we can do is try our damndest to break it and tell him how we did it. By doing so you are supporting a decent and free game and one that when completed will open up a world of dungeonmaster games you've never seen before .. new maps, monsters, puzzles.. etc.

Hi adder!

Guess we'll just have to wait for George to post his opinion on how easy it is to have a patcher programme, but I'd rather get closer to a finalised version quicker (and so get onto dugeons designing and playing CSB on RTC!). I do think atm there should be a big warning saying that changes between versions may invalidate saved games and that new bugs can be thrown up as versions are not playtested beforehand.

Hmm, maaaaybe a better idea, rather than a series of patcher programmes, would be having the new editor able to update older saves/dungeons if they are loaded up. That way anyone who has been caught out, like yourself, who would want to wait for the final version anyway can redeem their games without George having to release patches ever time.

Oops, hitting 'add reply' might let people read this...it's a hunch I have...

I wholeheartedly agree with you on this Drake. I think the problem is that some users of RTC do not appreciate that the software is still in Beta, and they expect it to be as complete as say, DMJava.

I for one am very grateful for all the work that George is doing on RTC, and as you say, it's nice to be able to playtest it and help him find the bugs. I think in the long run, this will pay dividends and make RTC a much more stable program than DMJava, and as Alandale did not appear to put out DMJ for public testing before he relased it, it's beginning to show. Look how many patches he's had to release already....

Hmmm,

I don't see DMJava like that, btw, Gambit. I see it exactly as I see RTC, as a game in Beta being tested by people and having our suggestions added - it just happens to have an Editor, that's all.

My point is simply that you must be able to see how frustrating it is reading posts like "wow - I love those doors with the naked women on them on level 12" (I made that up, but you get the point) and then finding that I get locked between two doors with no way to open either of them after playing for 8 weeks in every bit of spare time and getting to level 11. There are supposed to be great surprises and graphics on the lowest levels, but I can't ever get there and it's driving me nuts.

Don't use the newest version, I have managed to complete RTC a couple of times with version 0.09, and the 0.08 dungeon.

Though I'm not sure where to get those anymore.

DMJava and RTC are definitely at two different stages in their evolution - DMJava has been released, and is being supported with patches, as a post beta tested game(by Alan over who knows how many hours). So concidering how many patches and upgrades modern games are getting every two seconds Alan is doing very well.

In this climate, with RTC not specifically stating that it is still in beta testing, you can understand why people get annoyed here thinking it is in the same category as DMJ.

However, it is in beta testing, so you kinda have to expect to suddenly confront, for example, too fast doors after hour of playing, or even an inability to get the firestaff+ and finish the game! It just makes finally finishing it all the sweeter, plus every bug you find means the final version comes out all the sooner.

Well, if anyone's interested, I still have all versions of RTC back to 0.02.... email me if you really want any of them!

while it's true that it can be frustrating not being able to get to level xx because you get stuck along the way, it's a risk you take with every game. Even commercial ones..

DMJava has been in playtesting for a looooooong time. I playtested it before it was released and it had been mostly finished by that point. RTC however came to us without years of preworkings.. it was rough and raw and it was pretty stable. George has been working to create something both true to DM and yet filled with our ideas as well as his own from square one. DMJ was built and refined and most of what is there is from Alans own ideas. It was more or less completed when we got it. It hasn't changed a whole lot since it's initial release either. RTC on the otherhand has made a great deal of large changes.

I find more people have problems even getting to play DMJ for the first time let alone getting to level xx. It's not a bad game it's just got its set backs the same as RTC.

as for the editro, You can't have an editor for a game thats format is incomplete. It's comming though.. wait for it.

Anyway, you can't compare DMJ and RTC.. they are based on the same game but both are far too different in too many ways.