Dungeon Master Forum

If you use DMUTE, you'll know that it's a powerful program. If you've used it for any length of time, you'll also know that it's interface is bizarre and that it's prone to crashing. I don't know if George Gilbert is intending to update it, but if he were, what features or improvements would you like to see in it? Here's a few for starters:

1) Better memory management so that it doesn't thrash the swap file and crash after 200 or so edits, and faster start up time.

2) A true copy and paste, not just a 'cut and move one square'

3) Massive improvements to the interface - the whole keyboard input selectin (P, 1 etc.) is bizarre and 100% counter-intuitive. Windows is a GUI with a mouse - let us use it! (George, If you're not a designer I can help with this... )

4) True compatibility between all versions of DM, particulalry the ability to correctly save Amiga save games earlier than version 3.6 (I still use 3.4)

5) A built in text editor that will allow us to change the encrypted text strings in the data file. George already said he knows how to do it, so please please please....

6) Correct graphics for editing CSB save games (I can help here George - got most stuff out of the games as BMPs now...!)

7) Correct names for all objects.

8 ) Ability to place any object on any tile without having to select a category first

9) Automatic 'chest editor' that avoids having to do the objects-on-a-tile trick. Also, easily add objects to monsters without having to hex edit them.

10)Clarify the difference between normal and Type 2 activators in the dialogue boxes.(type 2 clicks, normals are silent)

11)'Prefabs' - premade tiles that have all the necessary objects already made - all we have to do is point it to the tile to be activated. Complex tiles such as gems that you put into holes which become switches - would save loads of time if they were prefabs.

12)Is there a way of controlling the strength of monsters generated by generators - if so, let us use it.

Can you guys think of any more??

Oh man, that would be cool. Bring it on!!!!!
Is it all but a dream, or are we just fantasizing, or is there a possibilty that George would do this.
I wish!!!!!!!!!!

COMMENTS
>1) Better memory management...
up to George

>2) A true copy and paste...
not easy: If you don't want to clone the tile, you have to create every
single object and creature contained in the tile with the same set of relations!

>3) Massive improvements to the interface...
Up to George and Gambit

>4) True compatibility between all versions of DM...
Up to George

>5) A built in text editor...
I think it's very complex, but I'll be willing to help investigating.

>6) Correct graphics for editing CSB save games...
Up to George and Gambit

>7) Correct names for all objects.
We have all the lists.

MY WISHLIST
13) The list of all the objects already created in the dungeon, with their
hexadecimal ID, their coordonates and wether they're chested or not.
This way we could manage much more efficiently the limited
number of objects, by referring to the same ID when we want
to clone an object like a wall inscription for example.
We could also detect if we have unused objects. And we could know how much
place is left yet.

14) An option to see the binary values instead of the hexadecimal ones.

15) For each level, the number of monsters allowed should be shown

16) Complete list of the triggering objects.

17) Complete list of the different tiles (pits and teleporters, doors stuck partially open, false walls)

1 Check box to make monster generators always work.

19) Bashable and spell sensitive doors.

PRESSURE PADS

20) Possibility to edit a pressure pad even when the tile is not a simple
floor.

21) The direction-specific effect for pressure pads

22) Pressure pads activated by the party+object.

23) The possibility to make heard message.

24) Duration ranges from 0 to 7 for pressure pads, not 0 to 6.

25) A check box for each function instead of "toggle 1" and "toggle 2".
For example: activate/disactivate, normal/toggle, step in/step out, no limit/once.

26) If you activate a wall object you must precise the direction
0, 10,20 or 30. It should be done automaticly.

WALL OBJECTS
27) Better interface for wall objects with the possibility, with a simple
optionbox, to create a swith on/switch out.
It's always the same procedure, so it could be automatized.

2 With this same interface, another option for object morphing.

29) The alcoves with the "needs constant weight" effects.

30) Wall objects with counters (interact once, twice, etc.)

31) A checkbox to add or not a click sound.

31) Wall objects from where you can retrieve an object.

32) A check box: Keyholes that don't eat the keys

33) The possibility to create spells vents, weapons vents and vents throwing
the objects we put inside. With the possibility to choose the kind of spell
or weapon, the power, if it's a single shot or a double,



I can provide the information for all the points I mentionned.
Zyx

1)Internet play-Give DMute some sort of way to incorporate a jpeg or bit mapped image of your face and paste it onto any the monsters, then allow up to say, 20 or 30 people to go online as a monster and when I see you, I'll see your incorporated digitized face on a monster's body and you'll see mine. That would kick SERIOUS ass!!

2)Play as Chaos!

* Some sort of File > New type thing, where if you made a mess of one dungeon, you could start with a blank one by clicking "new"

* Undo / Redo features

* This one might be a little sketchy when it comes to stairs and pits - save each level separately so we can mix them.

* The program made a little more user friendly overall

That's it for now <p><font face=arial>Ian

Pulp - Styling the pattern for life!</font></p>

Erm, Isamu, you <b> <i> were</i></b> joking right? That would be a pretty hard thing to do without the original source from DM. In fact, it would be simpler to write a game from scratch to do that. Better still, why not try HalfLife or Unreal Tournament...

I have never had any problems with screen redraw <p><font face=arial>Ian

Pulp - Styling the pattern for life!</font></p>

Really? It does it all the time on my PC - perhaps my machine is too slow, but I doubt it. I also don't understand why the swap file is thrased all the time either - DMUTE is a reasonably simple program and shouldn't be hogging system resources the way it does.

Ian, what spec computer have you got?

You said you can provide info on all the above points? As someone who has just found dmute and this forum, you can guess I have tons of questions (beowuuf@yahoo.co.uk).

My wishlist for DMUte, apart from all the points that have been mentioned (especially the memory handling/screen update - my computer is fairly slow, and the hard drive is full - it gets painfully slow before the inevitable crash), would be that it comes bundled with a Hex manual/help guide. I'm surprised that no-one has collaborated to produce one yet - or is there one downloadable somewhere - to send to george to package in the .zip file.

Oh, and definately the text editor too for wall text, I'm getting sick of the same quotes that don't quite fit the occasion!

Yes, I can afford the info about the changes for Dmute.
There are tons of answers on this board. If you have a question, don't hesitate, ask it, you'll get surprisingly quickly answers.
As for the manual, the best we have is this board.

HTML Comments are not allowed <i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub17.ezboard.com/ugambit37.show ... ambit37</A> at: 12/1/00 11:33:23 am
</i>

I don't know if this will clarify anything, but...

a) DMute seems to assign too high hex values for the 6th (graphic) bit of VI altars, alcoves etc alot..so for level 1, it assigns the value Bx rather than 5x, so that you get a 'garbled text 'graphical glitch (like ornate door/pressure pad glitches when a graphic is not available)

b) Does DMute directly assign hex values to objects it mutates? If so, then lots of the options like full object activation lists (found by francis, i think), and also more pressure pad codes (to create direction specific tiles, walk off tiles, etc) could be given if someone was kind enough to copy the relivant posts for you (and you had the time to add them all, obviously...)

c) Door and pit tiles preclude any attempts to edit objects on them..all other tiles seem to work fine (teleports, etc).

d) The 'teleporter' from the floor add menu assigns a value of 30, not b0, to the tile, so that it doesn't work.

e) One or two of the toggles DMute impliments don't make sense...an invisible teleporter will be toggled to a closed blue haze, etc. Then again, i take it not much can be done without actual examples and correct hex values : )

And no post to George would be complete without just a few more leeeeeetle wishes for DMute 1.4...

1) DMute seems to override lots of hex changes made to objects when you use the GUI...which can be annoying while editing...is there any way to make DMute leave bytes alone unless you have specifically changed the property that byte contained?

2) I could actually do without the open 2, close 2 and toggle (1) options..they seem to do nothing special, and are all based around Cx in the 5th bit if we want to experiment. Anyone agree?

3) Can you make the default activation for a wall object 'mouse' rather than 'none' when creating a new one? The amount of times I have forgotten to check a switch can be pressed....

Anyway. as long as there are forums like this and people willing to play around with hex codes, then george has done more than enough already....DMUte 1.4 is icing on the cake rather than a neccessity.
Then again, bigger items lists would be sweet, and...*cough*

>A true copy and paste, not just a 'cut and move one square'

What about the option to repeat certain mutations of objects? e.g., to fill a room with a large number of the same monster (without cloning), to change the hit points of all the monsters of a certain type in the same area, or to highlight a group of tiles and delete everything on them simultaneously?

>Massive improvements to the interface - the whole keyboard input selection (P, 1 etc.) is bizarre
>and 100% counter-intuitive. Windows is a GUI with a mouse - let us use it!

One specific aspect of this is having to delete the objects on a tile in order: you have to remove everything if only the first object is to be deleted.

>A built in text editor that will allow us to change the encrypted text strings in the data file.

Perhaps all the pre-written text could be made available in standard editing, without resorting to hex codes for anything outside of the scroll and wall text menus. Also, scrolls use reference points to the text differently; if you change the text on a wall, a scroll that's been coded to display what happens to be on that wall will also change, but DMute doesn't notice the change in the scroll. (Or do I have that backwards?)

>Correct graphics for editing CSB save games (I can help here George - got most stuff out of the
>games as BMPs now...!)
>
>This will slow down the initialisation by a factor of 2, but in principle is *very* easy to do.

Then I think it makes sense that the CSB graphics could be loaded afterwords, optionally - or only the CSB graphics, with the DM graphics being optional - perhaps it could be chosen in dmute.ini?

>Correct names for all objects - some of the names aren't right

Maybe there should be a vote for an "official list". Has the DM Clone Project team solved this already?

>Complete list of the triggering objects - i.e., be able to use any object as a trigger, rather than
>just the limited set that are offered in the dialogue box.
>
>That is a complete list of triggering objects! DM only allows some objects to be used, not all of
>them (again, don't know why; presumably for space reasons).

After much testing, I don't recall a single item not being allowed as a wall trigger; they should all be available as floor triggers too, whether with the party or not. (And I think live monsters, specific by monster type, can also be used as floor triggers - or was I only dreaming that?)

>Automatic 'chest editor' that avoids having to do the objects-on-a-tile trick. Also, easily add
>objects to monsters without having to hex edit them.

The items in chests and monsters aren't named, and if a monster's carrying a chest, you can't see what's inside it without hex editing. Is there a way to easily display the contents at least for clarification if not also for editing? Also, a monster "carrying" another monster is shown to be carrying an item, e.g. a club.

>Clarify the difference between normal and Type 2 activators in the dialogue boxes.(type 2 clicks,
>normals are silent)
>
>Not always (which is why it's written like that).

Though I don't quite remember, I think there are definite rules for when something clicks and when it doesn't, so whatever it is, it would be convenient to have a simple check box for it. Also, the check box for the teleporter buzz doesn't always work, and the rotation is also inconsistent: sometimes it rotates things from the direction they were already facing, but sometimes it sets everything facing North and only rotates them from there, so that clockwise = East and so on.

>For each level, the number of monsters allowed should be shown

Also, specifying which door and pad types are availalbe on each level and displaying the corresponding graphics (which change between levels) would be very helpful, as would verifying this in "check level integrity".

>Check boxes on the door dialogue box to make then Bashable and/or fireball sensitive doors.

Are there different strengths for doors?

>Specify the direction-specific effect for pressure pads
>
> Don't understand this one.

e.g., in the Clockwise puzzle, each teleporter is activated by a pad only when the party faces the appropriate direction, because of a specific code.

>A method to create the help messages that appear below the dungeon view
>
>These are just wall texts, placed on the floor. Try it and see...

This is a plea for more user-friendly editing, so that you don't have to dig up the hex.

>The alcoves with the "needs constant weight" effects.
>
>I don't think DM allows this property.

It's acheived by lowering the the 84 or 04 to 82 or 02 respectively (as with the alcove in the Vault that opens/closes a door).

>We need a simple way to create wall objects with counters - i.e., how many times is the object
>to be activated before it performs said function?
>
>I don't fully understand how this works (which is why it isn't implemented).

The only specific example I can think of in DM is the Riddle Room, where the door is opened after three correct riddles and the extra alcove after four. The codes are 86|00 = 1, 06|01 = 2, 86|01 = 3, etc.

>2) I could actually do without the open 2, close 2 and toggle (1) options..they seem to do
>nothing special, and are all based around Cx in the 5th bit if we want to experiment. Anyone
>agree?

No. Actually I'd ideally like to see all the types available, Ax, Bx, Dx, and so on. I don't think they're all understood yet, but they might all be useful eventually. There are some strange combinations of codes in CSB, especially with one object activating another activating another, where it seems unnecessary. Maybe that's how some subtle effects are achieved. (I still haven't gotten "Surrender Your Possessions" to work in DM.)

>3) Can you make the default activation for a wall object 'mouse' rather than 'none' when creating
>a new one? The amount of times I have forgotten to check a switch can be pressed....

Also the "active" attribute for pads and wall objects must be selected, or else the modifications made with conventional editing are lost, but it needs to be deselected for things like spell vents to work.

Many thanks well in advance!

>A true copy and paste, not just a 'cut and move one >square'
>Tricky, as there is a limited number of objects. If >you copy and object twice then you might go over the >limit which would be messy; all it (should) need is >some error checking though, but it could be complex >due to the way the save game format stores object >lists (which is why I didn't implement a proper copy >and paste in the first place!)

The copy and paste should work this way:
1. Add an object, the same category as the one copied
2. Change its hex values to match the original (except for the ID)

The problem of the object limit is independent of the copy and paste trick: if you do it manually, you may as well reach the limit.

With a recursive function, it even seems possible to copy chesting objects or monsters. Or tiles.
Anyway, if it can be done manually, it can be done automaticly. Am I wrong?

>A built in text editor that will allow us to change >the encrypted text strings in the data file. George > already said he knows how to do it, so please please >please....
-) I don't know how to do it unfortunately. I can do >it some of the time, but not always, and don't know >why it works (or doesn't) like this. I'm not prepared >to release a function which "may-or-may not work". >One day I'll have the time to figure out why, but >until then...

We could investigate ourselves if Georges gives us the info he already knows. e.g. where did he modify the dungeon.dat to obtain the text "Dmute V1.3 by Georges".
He also copied several wall texts over others...

>Is there a way of controlling the strength of >monsters generated by generators - if so, let us use >it. At the moment, DM seems to use a value within a >fixed default range - but this may be based on the >level number.
>No idea what it's based on, but I've accounted for >all the bits in the generator hex codes, so it's not >stored in the save game file - it must be something >in the DM source code (which I have no control over).

Each level has a deepness number associated. (can be found in the first lines od fungeon.dat). This number ranges from 00 to FF. The strength of generated monsters and the xp you gain depend on it. Also, if you set it to 00, there will be light on this level.

>An option to see the binary values instead of >hexadecimal.
>Easy - although I've no idea why anyone would want to >do this.
For the pressure pads! Some bits or couples of bits of the bytes are relevant but independent from the other bits: for example, for the 5th byte of a pressure pad:
3rd bit set to 0 means a step in effect
3rd bit set to 1 means a step out effect
4th bit set to 0 means a normal effect
5th bit set to 1 means a toggle effect

>Possibility to edit a pressure pad even when the tile >is not a simple floor - i.e., for special pads that >are wall objects used to activate special parts of >the dungeon
<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START >D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/grin.gif ALT=">D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> oesn't this work already?

Not on a tile with a door or a pit.

>Specify the direction-specific effect for pressure >pads
<!--EZCODE EMOTICON START >D --><img src=http://www.ezboard.com/intl/aenglish/im ... s/grin.gif ALT=">D"><!--EZCODE EMOTICON END--> on't understand this one.
If a pressure pad activates a wall object, it only activates one of the 4 faces of the wall. You have to add 00,10,20 or 30 to the hex value of the coordinate to choose the face.

>Specify that pressure pads activated by the >party+object.
>They should be already - like teleporters. Either >that or they can't be activated by that; not sure - >I'll have to look that one up.
The pressure pads can react to the party CARRYING an object.

>If you activate a wall object you must precise the >direction 0,10,20 or 30.It should be done >automatically. (George: this comment is incorrect - >the direction values are different depending on the X >coordinate of the square that the object is on)
>That's what I thought.
Yes, you have to add these value to the coordinate


>Ability to simply create a wall objects from where >you can retrieve an object.
>Like a torch (holder) or the Gem behind the scorpions >and fireball doors in CSB??? If so, I don't >understand how this works either

1. put a wall object, active, choose the object that activates it
(must be the object you want to retrieve)
Don't bother with the place it points to.
Don't choose any kind of action.
2. Edit 3rd byte: replace the x4 by xD.
3. Add a misc object inside the wall, which must be the object you want to retrieve.


>A way to create spell vents, weapons vents and vents >throwing the objects we put inside - with the >possibility to choose the kind of spell or weapon, the >power, if it's a single shot or a double,
>I looked into this a while ago, but didn't understand >how this worked. I can look again though.

I'll send a post about creating them.

i cant code at all, so i wish there would be some "masks" in DMute to enter values. i also didnt manage so far to create a shooting object on a wall.

A random thought entered my head about the difference between the original dungeon.dat file and the dmsave.dat file: could the extra 2kb be a temporary memory space? We know that there is a limit on objects, yet when you play the game extra objects from creature, creature dropped items etc are created all the time. I just wandered if this was placed in a different area of the file (I noticed that I had a constant monster generator on a level that i left active, and the saved game removed all the moster weapons, and even other generated monsters, first to accomodate, while none of the old permanent items were touched.) Of course, this could just be LIFO memory management...

DM has a natural limit for items, you will reach that easily if you continue to slay screamers/rats/worms to push up your chars to incredible levels (like me).
for my missile problem (and similar ones) i wish:
a button: "create missile hole"
next query: "select missile: dagger, fireball, whatever"
next one: "select power"
next one: "select direction"
that would be NICE!