Dungeon Master Forum

This posting is to address several of the issues about the future of DMute
that have been discussed on several occasions on various DM boards. For
the general background I recommend reading
<a href="http://pub17.ezboard.com/fiansmessagebo ... 4.topic</a>.

As I've said before I'm not overly keen on just adding cosmetic changes to
the existing codebase for several reasons. Primarily DMute does everything
that I ever really set out to do; namely the ability to arbitarily edit
dungeons - many of the improvements suggested for future releases would
take alot of time to implement and not make a substantial difference to
the program as it currently stands.

It is evident that DMute is popular and used on a frequent basis (the
existence of this board dedicated to the program which recieves daily
postings is a bit of a give away) and I still, some two years after
writing the program, recieve several emails a week about it. Indeed there
have been over 200 seperate people commenting very favorably on the program
(the ratio of lurkers to posters on these boards is very high!) yet
despite asking for people to register copies if they used it I have yet to
recieve a single thing. More problematic is the number of people that
complain, often abusively, about how DMute isn't perfect or demand that I
add in some feature or another and I fear that any future release would
only prompt more. I'm not in this for the money (after all, writing code
for a 14 year old program isn't probably the best way to do this!), I'm
here because I want to do it and enjoy it; writing DMute was always a
personal challenge to crack the save-game format and the fact that other
people have found it even remotely useful is a bonus. Indeed the half of
the e-mails I get where people have re-discovered DM as a result of DMute
make it all worth-while but a lack of time combined with a hail of
put-downs isn't condusive to continuing!

It is my opinion that DMute can't be improved much more (from the point of
view of functionality) as about 95% of the save-game format has been done
(and implemented in DMute V1.3). A little bit more is available in V1.4
(not released) but nothing significant and I've hit the point of
diminishing returns. As DMute can do virtually everything, fundamentally
to take the whole concept of new dungeon design forward would require
removing the limitations imposed by the DM engine itself (number of items,
number of monsters per level, number of levels, size of levels, available
characters etc). Without the DM source code this isn't possible. I
therefore propose an alternate strategy and a new future for DMute.

A while ago (whilst developing DMute) I wrote a clone of DM (Return To
Chaos; hereafter RTC) that emulated most things but dropped it as a
more ambitious project (the DM Clone Project -
<a href="http://enzofr.free.fr">http://enzofr.free.fr</a>) seemed more
interesting and aimed to expand DM in all sorts of other ways (3D or
whatever). RTC however is a different entity in it's own right and I'm
posting it now as I'm interested to see if you think it's worth
persuing; your comments will be extremely appreciated. RTC is a strict
clone in terms of gameplay - it adds no extra functionality in terms of
items, spells, monsters etc. so as a game in it's own right it adds
nothing to the original.

RTC however gains in one important way - as the dungeon save format is
known a fully comprehensive editor (surpassing the abilities of
DMute as it stands) can be written allowing users to modify
everything about the game. By everything I mean not just the dungeon
layout but the properties of every item including weight, armour values,
monster strengths and weaknesses, spells, the graphics etc. etc. and the
ability to create entirely new monsters and items. RTC also does not have
any of the memory limitations of DM so dungeons can be created with an
arbitary number of levels of any size without limits to items or monsters.

I've put a copy of RTC up so that you can have a look and see what you
think; in particular if it's worth continuing it on:

<a href="http://www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/~gg215/dm/RTC ... TC.html</a>

As a taster of what's possible I've included two sample dungeons with the
main code; the first level of DM and the Prison from CSB. There are still
several things left to tidy up and if there is sufficient interest I'll
sort them out and release the full DM and CSB dungeons.

Anyway, see what you think...

George

Ok, I have a few comments on this.

It seems great so far and it'd be brilliant if it was continued in such a way that we could edit things like you said such as the item graphics - that is something I've always wanted to do. We could create our own dungeons with our own graphics which would be great becuase we could play each others' dungeons and it'd be like playing a different game, it'd feel like a follow-up to CSB (DMII aside).

This would also mean that CSB is available for the PC which is great too.

Also, if you plan to carry this on (which I'd love to see), I would happily make a forum here for it. After all, there would be a great cause for discussion and we'd need to help each other.

Ian

It was no surface but all feeling

I understand George's feeling about Dmute and I agree with his estimation about functionnality: we can already nearly edit all the data contained in dungeon.dat using Dmute. Some minor modifications are worthy, the rest would be only users' needs. However if we would have had the info about dungeon.dat structure, or the dmute source, we would have programmed all the changes we need ourselves... So it just looks like we'll have to spent again hundred of hours to crack it and live again the challenge of understanding if we want a full dmute version.
Given this state of things, it would be best to recreate DM, with an open, fully understood source.
I don't know if this is the case about RTC, but the DM Clone project had this purpose...
Anyway, I'll try RTC. Thanks to Georges for so much dedication and kindness. And I'll try to register Dmute
- but what is 'something appropriate'? (I never read twice the help of Dmute, so Ï completely forgot about the registering plea...)

George, you know my thoughts on this already, but I'll post them here so others can comment.

I guess the future is defined by the objectives for the original project. Your original intent was to crack the DAT format and create an editor that would allow arbitrary editing of the dungeon. You succeeded in doing that, and although minor changes could be made to DMute, it pretty much does what it needs to do. So I don't think there would be a lot of point changing it at this stage. The wishlist I posted got good responses and ideas, but must of the changes that could be made wouldn't really add much to the program.

However, I think the reason DMute is popular is that allows for modifications of a classic game, a piece of gaming history. The people who seem to be getting the most out of it appear to be die hard DM fans who understand the limits of the old egine and take pleasure in trying to get something unique out of it. There's something quite exciting about being able to go back and modify such a classic game. BUT.... DM is severely limited in what can be done, and it's obvious from the posts on this board that users would like to do something more interesting than just build simple grey repetitive dungeons.

So that's the real question that needs to be answered:

<b> <i> Do dungeon builders enjoy making dungeons for the classic Dungeon Master (with all the restrictions that that entails), or do you all really want to be creating something new, original and exciting using a clone engine?</i></b>

If Dungeon Builders simply enjoy the challenge of messing around with the original game, then perhaps it's worthwhile releasing another version of DMute that addresses the stuff in the wish list. But if Dungeon Builders really want to build NEW WORLDS and ADVENTURES, then your new RTC engine and open architecture would be a better way to go.

I think that a new engine is a good idea, and that the tools available to modify it should be flexible enough to allow a similar degree of editing that we see in Half Life mods for example. At the very least any NEW engine must allow users to fully control the game environments (map editor), allow customisation of objects, weapons, etc (functionality and graphics), must allow full graphic modification of the game world, and allow complete control of all monsters, scripted events, missions, etc. I think that's quite a tall order, but if it's not done I'm not sure there would be much point. I for one would be very interested in helping out on this project. I thought about joining the Clone project a while back, but felt that it was pretty disorganised and I didn't have the time. (In fact, I still don't have much free time, but we can worry about that later).

One of the benefits of your new engine would be that Chaos Strikes Back could be re-built for the PC without users having to emulate it - now that would be cool.

Thoughts, anyone?

There is something rewarding about working within the limits, trying to push what can be done and figure out the potentials of the original. That being said, from playing RTC it feels so like DM that I personally have no problem with creating dungeons on that instead, since it would give the DM feel while allowing so much more variation and chances for creativity.

And yes, on the subject of george and support for dmute, i, like zyx, only read the registering part once when i first got hold of it, and wasn't in any position to do anything then...as for something appropritate, can you imagine the cost if this had been an editor from FTL in the shops? I think george shouldn't be shy in naming a renumeration, or just asking for testers to save himself hours and hours of checking for any future projects.

fitting subject RTC is great and would be so cool to use.. however if i had to decide rtc or DMute I would without thinking one second stick wiht DMute. Even if it is a pain to run something and that RTC could make a perfect copy of DM in EVERRY DETAIL that would be a factsimily(sp?). I'd rather not choose however.

...the real question does seem to be more 'Would everyone support RTC', which seems so far to be, in varying degrees, yes. DMute does everything we need to edit the dungeons, apart from one or two things that, as zyx has shown, can be researched and implimented by other people. DM still has many subtle codes that mean I, for one, will always want to tinker with it, and build the occasional 'classic' dungeon utilising a bizarre code or two. However since George's interest is more keyed up by exploring RTC than trying to squeeze on or two more small secrets out of the .dat files, then it's foolish not to support him 110% - especially as completely new looking dungeons with the DM feel are going to keep it alive for so much longer, both for creating and playing.

I can finally make a decision on this:

Having had the pleasure of messing around this evening with a more limited, editable version of RTC, I can definitely say that this is the way to go. All I did was to change the graphic of the mirror in the hall of champions to something that I knocked up in Photoshop - didn't take long, and I think even those simple results look good. You can see them here:

<a href="http://www.resonant.freeuk.com/rtc_anim.htm">RTC Sample</a>

If we have a whole new engine with no limitations, imagine what we might build with it. I for one am excited at the prospect of DM style games using 24-bit graphics and new puzzles and monsters. Could create a whole new 'mod' community, just for DM, the same way Unreal and Half-Life went...

Well it is up to George he asked i'm just stating my opinion, but i do suport whatever he may decide to do.
I will alway's love Dungeon MAster, And do welcome RTC as a newe game that can act like.. But besides playing cheating\editing ect is stuff i like to do. doesn't matter how old i still like to do it.

Nice graphics Gambit!! i see what you mean about a little free time, you could really revamp DM for the 90's if not for the 21st C.

I'm with Dmologist, sort of... nothing would ever substitute for the real DM, it just has a <i> feel</i> to it!!! i think it even goes as far down to the way the pointer moves, the animation of the objects/doors and fireballs!!

But i'd love to play new dungeons, completely new dungeons that are free from DM's limitations!! I've said this on the DM website's board, but i'd love to see a true 3D style DM like DM Nexus... So if anybody's got some free time

im the new one and that one who is crying loudest for improvements for DMute. But after all, i have finished my first dungeon and i am content with it, not only this, others seem to like it, too. the RTC is something i always wanted, i dream of such a complex and "open" editor since im about 10 years old (maybe one of you knows adventure creation kit ACK, which is nice, but not enough) with DM-like graphics. after rtc is finished, you will see many new dungeons (no, then its even adventures) from me, i have still lots of ideas. atm, im involved in recreating my first dungeon, but after this i will fully support RTC.
its not only CSB on PC, its CSB + DM in one game, finally...
Im really looking forward to this (and hurry in finishing my DMute dungeon)...

I agree. I don't have the expertise to program a game from scratch, but I do have a lot of expertise in world creation, and I am creative when it comes to designing 'game spaces', textures, and atmospheric environments.

I too wanted, for a very long time, to have some kind of DM style engine that allowed the user to control the look, feel and playability. But there was never anything available. As games got more sophisticated, this became a reality so I started building maps for Doom, Duke Nukem 3D, Unreal etc.

But since I got back into DM, having discovered this community on the web, the old desire to create my own DM style world has returned. And the RTC engine would be the way to realise that goal.

I for one fully support George in this, and will be more than happy to assist where I can. It would be great simply to play DM again with updated graphics. The DM Java Clone looked like it was going to do that, but it appears to have been a practical joke, so maybe RTC will allow us to finally complete this kind of project....

DM JAVA was not a practical joke the game is mostly complete. It will be completed soon. I take some responsibility for it's lateness since I was asked to help make the ending and intro. I'm nearly done the ending and the intro is complete.

So hopefully DM JAVA will be out very soon.

Ooops - I'm sorry if that sounded crap. From what I had heard, it certainly appeared that many people considered it to be a 'screenshot only' product. I apologise if my comments were out of turn. Sorry, Drake. Glad to hear it's still happening!

I didn't take any offence man. I know how easy it is for a project to become vapourware. It's hard for independant projects to stay afloat and I admire Alandale's commitment to DMJAVA so far. As a sort of update the game now has the intro, some dungeons, an ending and annother ending I just mad is awating him in his mail box. it's very close now.

Drake mentionned 3D and the Heretic game.
I am making 3D dungeons for Heretic 2.
I started this to see what could be the 3D rendering for a dungeon master game.
I made

why dont you make update programs available on your web page instead of reprogramming it i have a few suggestions

---Ability to edit wall texts

---Fix printer problems

---import grapics and sprites into Dm


This is only a suggestion but will use please keep it in mind
The Black Knight