Dungeon Master Forum

This posting is to address several of the issues about the future of DMute that have been discussed on several occasions on various DM boards. For the general background I recommend reading http://pub17.ezboard.com/fiansmessagebo ... D=94.topic

As I've said before I'm not overly keen on just adding cosmetic changes to the existing codebase for several reasons. Primarily DMute does everything that I ever really set out to do; namely the ability to arbitarily edit dungeons - many of the improvements suggested for future releases would take alot of time to implement and not make a substantial difference to the program as it currently stands.

It is evident that DMute is popular and used on a frequent basis (the existence of a board dedicated to the program which recieves daily postings is a bit of a give away) and I still, some two years after writing the program, recieve several emails a week about it. Indeed there have been over 200 seperate people commenting very favorably on the program (the ratio of lurkers to posters on these boards is very high!) yet despite asking for people to register copies if they used it I have yet to recieve a single thing. More problematic is the number of people that complain, often abusively, about how DMute isn't perfect or demand that I add in some feature or another and I fear that any future release would only prompt more. I'm not in this for the money (after all, writing code for a 14 year old program isn't probably the best way to do this!), I'm here because I want to do it and enjoy it; writing DMute was always a personal challenge to crack the save-game format and the fact that other people have found it even remotely useful is a bonus. Indeed the half of the e-mails I get where people have re-discovered DM as a result of DMute make it all worth-while but a lack of time combined with a hail of put-downs isn't condusive to continuing!

It is my opinion that DMute can't be improved much more (from the point of view of functionality) as about 95% of the save-game format has been done (and implemented in DMute V1.3). A little bit more is available in V1.4 (not released) but nothing significant and I've hit the point of diminishing returns. As DMute can do virtually everything, fundamentally to take the whole concept of new dungeon design forward would require removing the limitations imposed by the DM engine itself (number of items, number of monsters per level, number of levels, size of levels, available characters etc). Without the DM source code this isn't possible. I therefore propose an alternate strategy and a new future for DMute.

A while ago (whilst developing DMute) I wrote a clone of DM (Return To Chaos; hereafter RTC) that emulated most things but dropped it as a more ambitious project (the DM Clone Project - href="http://enzofr.free.fr">http://enzofr.free.fr) seemed more interesting and aimed to expand DM in all sorts of other ways (3D or whatever). RTC however is a different entity in it's own right and I'm posting it now as I'm interested to see if you think it's worth persuing; your comments will be extremely appreciated. RTC is a strict clone in terms of gameplay - it adds no extra functionality in terms of items, spells, monsters etc. so as a game in it's own right it adds nothing to the original.

RTC however gains in one important way - as the dungeon save format is known a fully comprehensive editor (surpassing the abilities of DMute as it stands) can be written allowing users to modify everything about the game. By everything I mean not just the dungeon layout but the properties of every item including weight, armour values, monster strengths and weaknesses, spells, the graphics etc. etc. and the ability to create entirely new monsters and items. RTC also does not have any of the memory limitations of DM so dungeons can be created with an arbitary number of levels of any size without limits to items or monsters.

I've put a copy of RTC up so that you can have a look and see what you think; in particular if it's worth continuing it on:

http://www.mrao.cam.ac.uk/~gg215/dm/RTC.html

As a taster of what's possible I've included two sample dungeons with the main code; the first level of DM and the Prison from CSB. There are still several things left to tidy up and if there is sufficient interest I'll sort them out and release the full DM and CSB dungeons.

Anyway, see what you think...

George

That clone is pukka!
Grate work!
* Just need a graphics editor *

I put my vote in for continuation of the project. If there is anything I can do to help let me know at amaprotu@amaprotu.net
- Kelly Washington

whatever you wish to do is more then welcome, I do wish to see both continue but if not thats too bad, I love both(rtc is amazing) and wish you the best of luck in whatever you do. I was woundering If you decide to sotp one project and work on another owuld you relwase the source ocde or let someone else take over?

I understand George's feeling about Dmute and I agree with his estimation about functionnality: we can already nearly edit all the data contained in dungeon.dat using Dmute. Some minor modifications are worthy, the rest would be only users' needs. However if we would have had the info about dungeon.dat structure, or the dmute source, we would have programmed all the changes we need ourselves... So it just looks like we'll have to spent again hundred of hours to crack it and live again the challenge of understanding if we want a full dmute version. Given this state of things, it would be best to recreate DM, with an open, fully understood source. I don't know if this is the case about RTC, but the DM Clone project had this purpose... Anyway, I'll try RTC. Thanks to Georges for so much dedication and kindness. And I'll try to register Dmute - but what is 'something appropriate'? (I never read twice the help of Dmute, so Ï completely forgot about the registering plea...)

George, you know my thoughts on this already, but I'll post them here so others can comment.

I guess the future is defined by the objectives for the original project. Your original intent was to crack the DAT format and create an editor that would allow arbitrary editing of the dungeon. You succeeded in doing that, and although minor changes could be made to DMute, it pretty much does what it needs to do. So I don't think there would be a lot of point changing it at this stage. The wishlist I posted got good responses and ideas, but must of the changes that could be made wouldn't really add much to the program.

However, I think the reason DMute is popular is that allows for modifications of a classic game, a piece of gaming history. The people who seem to be getting the most out of it appear to be die hard DM fans who understand the limits of the old egine and take pleasure in trying to get something unique out of it. There's something quite exciting about being able to go back and modify such a classic game. BUT.... DM is severely limited in what can be done, and it's obvious from the posts on this board that users would like to do something more interesting than just build simple grey repetitive dungeons.

So that's the real question that needs to be answered:
Do dungeon builders enjoy making dungeons for the classic Dungeon Master (with all the restrictions that that entails), or do you all really want to be creating something new, original and exciting using a clone engine?
If Dungeon Builders simply enjoy the challenge of messing around with the original game, then perhaps it's worthwhile releasing another version of DMute that addresses the stuff in the wish list. But if Dungeon Builders really want to build NEW WORLDS and ADVENTURES, then your new RTC engine and open architecture would be a better way to go.
I think that a new engine is a good idea, and that the tools available to modify it should be flexible enough to allow a similar degree of editing that we see in Half Life mods for example. At the very least any NEW engine must allow users to fully control the game environments (map editor), allow customisation of objects, weapons, etc (functionality and graphics), must allow full graphic modification of the game world, and allow complete control of all monsters, scripted events, missions, etc. I think that's quite a tall order, but if it's not done I'm not sure there would be much point. I for one would be very interested in helping out on this project. I thought about joining the Clone project a while back, but felt that it was pretty disorganised and I didn't have the time. (In fact, I still don't have much free time, but we can worry about that later).

One of the benefits of your new engine would be that Chaos Strikes Back could be re-built for the PC without users having to emulate it - now that would be cool.

Thoughts, anyone?

I gotta say George, you're a star with the programming!!!! DMute, like you say does what it's supposed to do, and practically everything you could want to do... I like RTC, plays just like the original - fantastic!!!

I think the future has to be a DM clone of some kind. Does anyone know how Alan Dale's Java DM is coming along? the graphics look great, and it looks like it might have a dedicated editor. I'd love to try it out!!!

Gambit, said something i've felt for a long - a remake/rebuild/clone of CSB for the PC so i can actually play CSB properly without an emulator crashing my system!!!
One thing that needs to be thought about is - what made DM so special! why do we all love it still after so many years? what made it better than Eye of the Beholder, Ishar and the rest? Do we want to play a game that looks and feels exactly like DM? or a game based on DM? how about DM in true 3D, like DM Nexus, but with the iventory, attack and magic the same? That'd be fun!!

But 2 things need to be kept for my happiness: movement using the numerical pad, and the original DM (& CSB) map!!!

Anyone got somewhere we can set up a vote on this? how we should proceed? (we - sorry, i mean George et al.) what we all would like to play? etc...
Cheers

I have to say that it doesn't work on this computer. As soon as the "DungeonMaster, Return to Chaos" logo has disappeared it will just revert back to the Win95 desktop.
PS. I like the GG logo

Yeah, i gotta say the GG was a nice touch - gave me a laugh!! maybe when you put sound on George, you should add a comedy swoosh, instead of the original sound...

Maybe a "Sha-wing"... sort of Waynes World!!!

RTC is the way to go. My only question is: is there a way to help? I am adept craftsman C++ programmer and EE master object pascal programmer with experince of game development.

One thing, i have always wished i could do with DM, is cast spells using the keyboard!! How about using the F keys to select the spell casting player and the number keys beneath for the spells 1-6. Hmm, that'd make using the number pad for movement awkward wouldn't it...

Just a thought, i always found casting fireballs while hacking at a monster when your down a dead end...

I can finally make a decision on this:

Having had the pleasure of messing around this evening with a more limited, editable version of RTC, I can definitely say that this is the way to go. All I did was to change the graphic of the mirror in the hall of champions to something that I knocked up in Photoshop - didn't take long, and I think even those simple results look good. You can see them here:

If we have a whole new engine with no limitations, imagine what we might build with it. I for one am excited at the prospect of DM style games using 24-bit graphics and new puzzles and monsters. Could create a whole new 'mod' community, just for DM, the same way Unreal and Half-Life went...

The URL didn't work for some reason. Here it is, paste it into your browser:

http://www.resonant.freeuk.com/rtc_anim.htm

This looks grate!
Well done!

Great graphics. Good example of what can be achieved. If RTC is to be continued, what about enlisting help from this forum for graphics files to be submitted and possibly used in any final game produced?

Oh well, I guess the DM clone is then to be dead. Which I suppose means I'm no longer needed for the GFX. It's nice to have a clone out there I guess.
Cheers

No, no, not at all! It shouldn't be dead. The modified RTC that I used is the engine that George has already 'given' to the clone project. It's freely downloadable from the resources page on the Clone website.

Why should you give up on the graphics? I wasn't treading on anybone's toes in showing my example. It's merely to show how easy it is.

I think that we're all getting a bit confused. RTC is code that George developed independently of the Clone project, and he then posted it on his website. The NewDM engine code on the Clone site is the same engine as RTC - but it's in an EDITABLE format, that's the only difference.

We just need people to agree on a course of action, and get some ORAGNISED direction for the future of the project. There's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't continue to develop graphics for the clone - they can be used by RTC, or whatever engine is decided to be used.

The project is only going to work if someone has overall control and can make these decisions. Is that happening anywhere? - I don't see it. Last time I looked at the Clone web site, George's code had been available for some time, but nobody seemed to have done anything with it.

What's the deal?

I had done nearly half the dungeon GFX with the new clone. So yes someone had done something with the new clone. It's just there is a limit (200k) to files size and u/l don't always work so I'll I could put up are examples. When I first tried to put up the GFX set it crashed and put like 8 empty files on there and they've been there ever since.

Anyhow I thought you said you used on older more editable version of RTC. I guess my memory is off..

Also, you needn't worry you were not treading on anyones feet. I just figured that you and others would have started going nuts creating GFX sets for DM (which would be fine) in anticipation of the release.

At any rate I just talked with George and I will complete the GFX set. I just have no idea where I will make it available. it's already about 600k.
Cheers Drake

well, so far we have had 4 posts.. Enzo stating the new changes to the board George with the RTC post ZYX saying hi more or less And my self also saying hi. that has been it since the holidays.

I know that Enzo has some new responsibilities that would demand most of his free time and I do not expect him to put any of his spare time in to the clone project that would not be fair to him.

George and I will be working on RTC as far as I know. I'm just providing new GFX.

as for the others I can't really say.. I've seen a few wandering through the other two boards but not the clone yet. Which is why I say it's more or less dead.... again. It's not the first time as you all know. It's just the first time that something this big has emmerged onto the scene during the absence.

so who knows.. the only thing that is left to be done to DM is go 3D really.. Time will tell if that will actually happen..
Drake out

The improved gfx make spoting those damn pesky iron/square/grey keys easier now. The times I have spend trying to track down a grey key on a grey coloured floor.... Wow, the dungeon is really dark without any light spells or torches. Most impressive. Well done george. Please continue with this project. The potential of the gfx manipulation, shown by Gambit, makes the possibilities mouthwatering.