Dungeon Master Forum

any way to edit own csb4win dungeons?
when i tried, i only made the game crash...
are there any special items, buttons etc i may not remove? i blankened out the whole card before beginnig...really annoying, because that was much work.
i know, of course, that its possible to do some minor changes like delete monsties, open doors etc, place items...but i want to startup a new dungeon from scratch.
oh...and id be glad to have textmute for that .)

Amber

yep, saves.dat and mini.dat should be able to dmute as dm...i myself started a new game from a blanked mini.dat, and had no problems, plus i had fun dmuting a saved game to check out the differences between dm and csb items..no problems whatsoever there either

if i have the blank template i will mail it to you, but otherwise i don't know why the problem...i can mail you the start of my own dungeon so you less to blank at least : )

CSBWin crashed? Can we somehow ship your game to me so that
I can see what went wrong? What version of CSBWin are you using?
Fixing old versions is not my cup of tea. If I can fix something in the
latest version then I will have an excuse to release another version.

PAul

unfortunately, i have deleted the edited dungeoon immediately after the crash (stupid me).
i would be very glad to get a blank dungeon :)
and maybe i should dl the newest version, im still at 6.0.

i sent the blank(ish) dungeon to the last mail address i had for you, which was from a few months ago...hope you got it!

of course i got...no reason to change my email addy.
atm, im very busy with breath of fire (snes), but ill try it the next days.

I can't succeed to edit my CSB4Win savegame without making it crash soon or later.
I succeded to alter the original map, and load it with CSB4win, but each time i erase all items on a level (i only modified Start level) to create a blank one, CSB4Win doesn't want to load it anymore (win fatal error at savegame load), whereas DMute say it is still valid.

So each time, i lost all my work whereas Dmute still accept to read it. It's so stupid.
Could you send me your blank dungeon for CSB4Win ?????
Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease !!!!!!!

If you have a savegame that CSBwin cannot load
then I would like to see it. In general, CSBwin should
be able to read most anything. Building a dungeon is
difficult enough; you should not have to fight with your
tools.

Also, if you want to try CSBuild (the latest version can
clear the entire dungeon with a single mouse-click) then
let me know. I can post it.

PAul

I'll test the blank dungeon I have, if i can find it, with the latest CSB4win to see if its the dungeon or the game that

If i can find it...

That dungeon had an illegal object on level 8.
A door had a forward link of 0xeeee. Clearly
illegal.

I modified CSBwin to deal with such obviously
illegal objects. It complains about them but
then ignores them. You can find version 9.51b at

webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

CSBexe951b.zip.

It is just the executable....not a full release.

PAul

Hi Paul,

since I'm currently playing Amber's "Imprisoned again" on CSBwin I noticed some minor problems. Most likely these do not come from CSBwin themselves but from either "glitches" in hexmuting or the difference between the "old" dungeon played on a relatively new version (9.1).

My question is: Is there a possibiliy to build into CSBwin a verification of some kind (say, in the menu list?) to check if a (in this case: converted) dungeon can be played and if not, why not? Currently, this dungeon works well except for odd graphical behaviour at some points and a few buggy items that transfer into invisible flasks when picked up and sometimes even cause the game to crash but I basically can finish it (that is, if the matrix does not annoy me too much ;))

But it is annoying if you start into a game and after a few hours work the damn thing reaches a point that cannot be passed, fixed or surrounded - but you cannot find that out before starting, so that's lost time.

Well, let me know what you think.

Regards, PitD

It was my intent to build a lot of verification
into CSBuild. So you could load a dungeon
with CSBuild and apply the available checks.
They are available via menu options.

Moreover.....if you know of glitches that CSBuild
does not find then let me know and send me a
game; I can probably add another check. That
is what I did with the savegame that Benoit
sent me.

Actually, the old CSBuild detected the error but
crashed instead of fixing the error.

I have not released any versions of CSBuild for
a very long time...mostly because of lack of interest.
Express some interest and I will post the latest.

PAul

Well... I will check with CSBwin but since I simply converted the basic dungeon with the converter script and played it I never tried CSBuild - do I understand you correctly that the program will detect any errors that might cause CSBwin to crash?

Anyway, I'll let you know my results before posting further.

Regards, PitD

You understand correctly. It is my intent that if
CSBuild finds no problems then the game will not
cause CSBwin to have any problems. To some extent
this was a 'self-defense'. If people complain that
their designs cause CSBwin to crash then I could use
CSBuild to verify the correctness of the design.

In general what I have done when I find a problem is:
1) Change CSBuild to check for that problem.
2) Change CSBwin to not crash. For example the
problem described above.....an illegal object link....
it complains and then ignores the illegal object.

Moreover....CSBuild checks for many other problems that
will cause no runtime errors. For example:

Actuators that send messages to 'nowhere'.
Actuators that are nowhere referenced.
Orphans. Objects that are nowhere referenced.

Remember that this is the 'intent'. I was
sort of relying on users to point out things that
needed checking. The problem described above is
a great example. But there has been so little
interest that I rather quit having any interest myself
except for what I needed for my own purposes. I
would love to hear from users who find errors that
are not detected by CSBuild.

PAul

Paul, I think there is still interest in building the ultimate dungeon editor. DMute will probably not evolve much and DMEdit development is paused.

CSBuild cannot yet do everything that other editors can. For example edit champion stats and portraits in saved games like DMute can (but only on "standard" dungeons). As pointed out in another thread, ease of use is also important. Also, is it possible to select the starting position in the dungeon, and the actual party position in saved games?

There are regularly posts about people having problems creating dungeons. I think if you can provide a full featured dungeon editor, then it will become the standard and interest will be greater than for other editors.

I have an issue with the dungeon "poison" and CSBuild version 7.51.
I can open the dungeon, but the program crashes when I select "Object count" in the menu (there are other options causing crash).

Anyway, I will add CSBuild to the downloads page in the next site update so that more people will download and try it. (everybody does not come in these forums). I hope you will not stop this project, because it is the last one still alive for dungeon editing!

For example edit champion stats and portraits in saved games like DMute can (but only on "standard" dungeons).

I am not interested in portraits and stats. Sorry.
How about someone else doing this in a separate editor?
I can export/import the parts in question. Someone else
can edit them.
========================================
As pointed out in another thread, ease of use is also important.

The latest version can "UNDO". "REDO", "CUT", and "PASTE"
are now going to be relatively easy.

GUI target selection will be next. Next except for errors.

The overall design of "Dialog" boxes with dozens of
buttons, lists, and controls will have to remain for the
most part. "Ease of Use" has more than one dimension;
I chose the "Simple but tedious" axis.
========================================
Also, is it possible to select the starting position in the dungeon, and the actual party position in saved games?

That was done long ago. "Edit Global Data".
=========================================
There are regularly posts about people having problems creating dungeons.

I have seen no reports of problems with CSBuild that I
have not addressed. Unless I forgot them...send them again.
=========================================
I have an issue with the dungeon "poison" and CSBuild version 7.51.
I can open the dungeon, but the program crashes when I select "Object count" in the menu (there are other options causing crash).

If you have reported these to me I apologize. Can you
send the problem games again with instructions as to how
to cause the problem? Please be persistent if you get no
response from me.
==========================================
I hope you will not stop this project,

I repeat...I am pretty much only going to respond to
reports of needs and problems. Otherwise I will only be
doing what I want and need.
==========================================
I will add CSBuild to the downloads page

I guess that is good. Maybe I should add a "Splash
Screen" saying that I am not going to enhance/repair
the program without user feedback and force the user
click on "I Understand". ;-)

PAul

For what it is worth...

I put CSBuild Version 0.753 at

webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

It has the "UNDO" and PAGEUP/PAGEDOWN and Heaven
knows what else. I have not kept track of changes.
Nor have I been testing it very well to make sure I
have not broken things that used to work. It also
has the 'Fine Print' dialog.

Hi Paul,

I believe there is a larger interest in a functional editor than you think but that means (as Christophe pointed out) having some parts you yourself see as not necessary. CSBuild so far served me only for displaying dungeons DMute could not open, but I also feel that some vital areas need to be improved for more people to use it.

So, for example: When trying to open Amber's "Imprisoned again V1.2" (as downloadable from this site I get the error message "The databases in the savegame file appear damaged" and "Unexpected file format". What shall I do with that? A (simple) user needs simple explanations - I can only guess that there is a problem created which you check against but since I did not build dungeons yet, how should I fix it???

I must admit I'm also a fan of things like "editing characters" and a simple GUI, but if that's not in your line, I understand. But I'm still betting, the more intuitive the layout, the more people would use it. Quite simple. (I have no idea how to build a dungeon with CSBuild and even by trying I so far could not even add any tile - just one example)

But I'm perfectly willing to use the tool and give you feedback - maybe we can start by your explaining the error I mentioned above ? ;)

Regards, PitD

And here are my first suggestions...

* Drawing more than one tile by just holding the left mouse button down and dragging along would be nice and ease work.

* "Intelligent" combination of two single actions by CSBuild when placing a teleporter or pit on a "wall square" (the standard in a blank dungeon), meaning it combines making an empty square AND placing the teleporter/pit with just ONE mouse click (also saves you the trouble of the error message). If the square is already empty, the placing could work normally.

* Since I just found out how to edit (load a blank dungeon first), how about a menu item to directly load that blank dungeon. (If you do that, I'd add an extra request by the program if the user really wants that otherwise previously dungeon work might be lost by an unlucky wrong click)

* And I'll now take your word with the explanations... maybe I'll document them for others. When I right-click a given tile (say, a door I just created), I get a nice little screen with four empty cells in the corners where I can place objects. Can you please tell me, what the "pop" button does ? And what exactly does the slightly crypted text mean in detail (example: <2>CL170=Bread)

* Pits can only be made if the tile below already contains an empty square. Probably precaution against users forgetting that empty square later, but still an extra two mouse clicks. Any chance of changing that? Like : when you go to another level, you get a warning or graphical hint that some fields should be empty squares because of pits above? Or: no save allowed when this is the case?

* Editing a teleporter destination without view of the map is a bother. Best would be graphical OR manual editing by choice (like a tick box you can set in the sub menu itself and switch it any time you like - graphical solution does not appeal to you, I know, but it's so much more intuitive to the likes of me - maybe both possibilities could co-exist...)

Enough for now,

regards, PitD

I assume these are in order of importance.
====================================
**Drawing more than one tile by just holding the left mouse
**button down and dragging

I'll see. I have never tried this.
====================================
**combination of two single actions by CSBuild when
**placing a teleporter or pit on a "wall square" (the
**standard in a blank dungeon

No problem. The original method was a shortcut to
get this working quickly
====================================
**menu item to directly load that blank dungeon

Already works. The 'File' option 'New'.

**extra request by the program if the user really
**wants that

Already works. It asks if you want to save any
dungeon you have modified.
====================================
**what the "pop" button does

Remove the item and add it to the end of the list.
Not everywhere available yet. Not everywhere
implemented yet.
====================================
**what exactly does the slightly crypted text mean
**in detail (example: <2>CL170=Bread)

Not important. But useful. I'll anwer in a followup.
====================================
**<Allow pits into walls.>

I'll warn you and then allow it. And add it to the
available 'Checks'.
====================================
**<Teleporter destination>

Still thinking of best way to do this. Definitely needed.

Thank you for answering so quickly. Two points:

The "new" button does not work for me, otherwise I would not have brought up this point. It creates a black space but I cannot create or change any tiles. Tried with the newest version 0.753. (If you load a "blank dungeon" you can see that there is a difference, because the fields are separated by white spots. With "new" there is only blackness ;))

Teleporter destination: I agree that the numeral interface is ok but at least there should be a way to move it so one can see the dungeon behind and check the coordinates if necessary. At the moment the entry field blocks the dungeon itself.

Regards, PitD

Thank you for answering so quickly. Two points:

The "new" button does not work for me, otherwise I would not have brought up this point. It creates a black space but I cannot create or change any tiles. Tried with the newest version 0.753. (If you load a "blank dungeon" you can see that there is a difference, because the fields are separated by white spots. With "new" there is only blackness ;))

Teleporter destination: I agree that the numeral interface is ok but at least there should be a way to move it so one can see the dungeon behind and check the coordinates if necessary. At the moment the entry field blocks the dungeon itself.

Regards, PitD

The "New" works fine for me. Perhaps you are confused
because it creates a dungeon with only one level, one
row, and one column. Did you try making level zero bigger
or adding a level?

PAul

There are two problems with the 'prison' dungeon.
It appears to be a PC formatted (Little Endian) ans
so you must select 'little-endian' from the 'File' menu
before loading it.

There is also a duplicated object in the dungeon.
It causes version 0.753 to complain and then die.
I put a version 0.754 at
webpages.charter.net/pstevens1
which notes the error and then throws the object
and any additional objects away. That is about the
best I can do. At least it survives so that you can
edit the dungeon.

I don't think I will change CSBwin; it will continue
to complain and die, I believe.

**what exactly does the slightly crypted text mean
**in detail (example: <2>CL170=Bread)

OK. I went back and looked at what these things
might mean. They were put there as debug aids
and are not consistent. Neither are they necessary
for complete functionality.

The number inside a pair of broken brackets <>
appears to be simply the position of the item in
the list. The first listed is '1', the second '2', etc.
That hardly seems useful.

Naked integers like '216' are the unique identifiers
of the objects. Every object in the dungeon has
a unique integer associated with it. This might be
useful when watching the objects get moved around
as seen in a trace file. So you can distinguish one
screamer slice from another. One might even
write a DSA that requires a **particular** gold
key to open a door (Better not use it elsewhere!).

The names like CL087 means Clothing Type 87
which is an Elven Huke. Other letters:
CL clothing
MT monster type
AC actuator
MI miscellaneous item
PO potion
WP Weapon
This might be a bit useful because it is more precise
than the name. There are four kinds of 'Torches'.

What is printed in these lists is relatively flexible.
I am very open to suggestion. For example, it might
be useful to put teleporter mode (party , objects, etc)
in the list so you would not have to edit the the
teleporter to determine this. Actuator type (pushbutton,
etc.) might be useful. But these are definitely bells and
whistles and should be implemented after all functional
features are operational.

Hello Paul,

thanks a lot for your explanations.

1) I still cannot work with the "new" button. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but after clicking it nothing changes (see CSB_01.jpg) to before; I can neither add tiles nor change them. Since I do not even know, how to add a level (please explain!) I tried to add empty square tiles, but that did not work. On the other hand, If I load a blank dungeon (see CSB_02.jpg + CSB_03.jpg, I get the gridlines, and that enables me to change things). Tell me what I'm doing wrong...

2) Regarding the "prison" problem - is there a way to write a log file or produce a message to show the user exactly what item/actuator is causing the problem and why. I'm asking, because (without knowing the programming part, just guessing) theoretically a necessary item for solving that dungeon might be removed permanently that way. Is that possible or am I missing something?

3) For the list of objects I definitely need to give that some more thought. There might be interesting possibilities, but for now I'd just like to be able to add tiles ;) I'll think about it and let you know at a later point.

4) If I'm doing the documentation (=copying your provided answers and bringing them in a format), how would you like this format to be? Should it be included in the program directly?

5) What exactly distinguishes a "compressed data file" from a non-compressed one?

6) Little Endian and Big Endian are the different save games/dungeon types of DM and CSB, correct?

7) Any chance of including little pics like in DMute when the mouse cusrsor is on a certain field?

8) What is the exact difference between dungeon and prison format?

9) What does encrypt do?

10) What does "target lines" mean (in CSBuild, of course) and how does this option work?

Thanks,

best regards, PitD

Since I cannot include the screenshots, excuse the part in the post above, but you'll know what I mean anyway.

Regards,

PitD

Wow! That is great. I love questions. Makes me feel
important.

1) *** New Button does not work.***
I cannot see the .jpg so I cannot tell you what is
wrong. There are dozens of 'New' buttons. And
a 'New' option in the 'File' menu.
***Cannot add level***
In the 'View' menu there is a 'Global Info' and a
'Level Info'. In the 'Global' you can add levels and
in the 'Level' you can add rows and columns to a
particular level.

2) ***Log file to tell what is wrong***
What you say is true.

The MessageBox that indicates the problem tells
exactly the cell that causes your problem, does it not?
What more can I say that would be helpful?
I could easily dump the offending object in hex.
Since this is a problem introduced by some other
editor I am not too keen on spending a lot of time
debugging someone else's program. If CSBuild causes
such things I will be a lot more responsive.

3)***Where should documentation be***
Putting it into a genuine Windows Help File would be
best. But then you would have to learn how to do it.
I can provide the tools that I use to create Help Files.
I can help you figure out how to use them.
=====BUT==== Decisions like this are one of the reasons
I refuse to do documentation. The design of the
documentation is hard work and no fun whatsoever.

4) ***What is a compressed file***
A compressed file is a file that has been compressed.
It uses a kind of LZW-like compression.
Christophe is our expert on file formats. Perhaps we
can rely on him to include such information in his document.

5)***Big-endian and little-endian***
This is pretty much a case of Intel versus Motorola.
When integers consist of more than one byte, the Intel
machine puts the least significant byte first; Motorola
puts the most significant byte first. The data files reflect
this 'natural' order.

CSBuild wants to read the Atari Format (big-endian)
by default. But, since CSBuild runs on Intel, it must turn all
integers around. It can also read PC-formatted files
by selecting 'little-endian' and then it does not have to
turn the integers around.

7) ***Pictures***
No pictures. I do not want to read the Graphics file.
This was actually one of the big reasons that there is a
DMBuilder and a CSBuild....we could not agree on the
use of graphics.
On the other hand, I have considered a 'dynamic' list
of objects in a cell. As you move the cursor around,
it would show a text list of objects on the right edge
of the screen. This would be a niceity that will have to
wait for functional needs to be met.

8)***Dungeon versus prison format***
Again....maybe Christophe can educate us here. He has
been studying these things at length.

9)***Encrypt***
It encrypts the dungeon data file. Nobody can read such
a file. Even CSBuild cannot read it. Pretty handy, huh?

10) *** Target lines***
When you put the cursor over a cell, lines appear that show
the targets of teleporters and actuators. When you enable
the 'Target Lines' this is reversed.....the lines indicate the
source of 'teleportations' and show which cells have actuators
with the 'cursor cell' as a target. In other words, the arrows
point towards the cursor rather than away.

About the file formats:

If you want details about the dungeon file format or the compression algorithm, you will find them on the dungeon file format page: http://dmweb.free.fr/FFDungeon.htm (I'll add this link to the site menu with the next site update).
DM and CSB can both read compressed and not compressed dungeon files.

As far as I know, the prison is just a small dungeon file (less levels, less items, less creatures etc...), but there is absolutely no difference in the file format.

Saved games however are different, and contain obviously more data than the dungeon files (champion's portraits and stats, timers, ...). I have not yet studied this format and produced no documentation about it. But I will certainly do that in the future when I find the time and make a full documentation.

I put CSBuild 0.756 at
webpages.charter.net/pstevens1

--Draw multiple tiles using 'drag'--PitD
--Weapon drop-down list has multiple lines--Christophe
--GUI Teleporter target selection--Everyone
--Edit Clothing--Christophe
--Remove 'Database Full' messages--Christophe
--Monsters possess monsters(Neat!)--Christophe

All I have on my list now are:
--Place pit or teleporter on wall cell--PitD
--Place Pit above wall cell with warning--PitD
--'Check' option to note pits above wall cells--PAul