DM2 set in DM Java wanted!

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:59 am

I think it would be a great idea to create a set of items for DM Java from Dungeon Master 2. I thought about trying this myself, but I don't have a Windows computer and I have to emulate Windows 2000 with Virtual PC, which is not very quick. (I also want help on running DM Java under Mac OS 10.3.4)

To make such a set, you would need to:
Extract/Create pictures from DM2 items
Copy down stats and effects for all items
Assemble custom items in DM Java
Package all files together and post them on the web

Anyone else think this is a good idea? Any volunteers?

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:47 am

The stats should all be on the ebcyclopaedia website. The graphics can be extracted using the tools found there too. So there's nothign really stopping anyone except the intense mechanics needed to emulate things like shops. I'm sure many people have the idea to create DM 2 under various platforms (I've even seen a nice example of the graphics usage) but I imagine thigns like the shop and some of the more complex monster interractions (the guardian/attack minions, stone men who fuel the furnace, etc) perhaps stop people

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:46 pm

I'm really looking for someone to just create the items, but I would LOVE to see the makers of DM Java throw in more DM2 inspired graphics, monsters, items, and stuf as stardards. If they could manage the whole "store" thing, create a dungeon that goes UP, and use 3 types of terrain (cave, forest, tower/dungeon), then I would be ecstatic!

I played DM2 first as a demo that came in a bundle with my Mac. I found the game at a closeout sale for $15, so I bought it. Last year, I discovered this site and the whole network of fan sites. A recreation of DM2 in java would make everyone happy, especially since DM2 is difficult to run under Windows (unless you are stuck in the dark ages of computing).

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 7:47 pm

Oh, and I finally figured out how to run it under OS X! Woohoo!

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:13 pm

yes, after getting many ways to play CSB under windows, DM2 is the next one that would be great to have easily playable

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:53 pm

DMJ has all but been abandoned. Alandale and I went on to other projects and Wishbone has made his own new 3D clone which takes up a lot of his free time I would imagine.

It's really up to everyone else to continue on and make what they want from it all.. there are DM2 graphics rippers.. the tools are all there to put them into DMJ and even maps online to show what goes where.. stats for things.. etc etc.

really just need sit down and do the dull work of copying it all into DMJ.

moo

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:25 pm

*cough DM2 in RTC cough*

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:55 am

It takes soooooo long to copy it all! I'm running the extractor in Windows 2000 in Virtual PC, and then taking screenshots (as PDFs) and singling out the pictures and trying to convert them to proper formats. By the way, what formats are acceptable for DMJ graphics? I know that GIFs are, but what about JPG and PNG?

Someone really needs to make a new clone based on DM2. DM2 is WAY better than DM1 as far as dungeon enhancements. 3 terrain types, more graphics, towns, shops, etc. Why is DM2 so ignored? *anguished cry of pain*

Post by **Lunever** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:12 pm

DM2 in RTC would be an unbelievable big step in RTC developement - to big to ask from George I think supposing that he has a life outside RTC-developement.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:20 pm

Some elements are there, it should be up to a dungeon designer to push the engine and find out where the limits are ..then ask george for a few tweaks : )

Post by **Gambit37** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:17 pm

Minions and monster AI are the biggest issues. Hardly a 'tweak'!!!

For example, wolves won't attack if you don't attack them; you can throw a bone over a pit and they will jump over and grab it, and bring back other items beyond the pit. There are hundreds of other clever behaviours in DM2 that would all have to be re-created.... a massive undertaking.

I'd be happy with just one addition: alpha-channel graphics...

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:11 pm

Everyone hates minions so much, but i think monster behaviour and the shop mechanics will make any attempt on any other platform never quite there... the only way to get DM 2 properly would be a dedicated clone or just play DM 2 : )

Still, intereting to see how close you could get it...a shop almost there, with perhaps some additional trigger, etc needed to make it fun enough.
I can't imagine even with a few additional non-attack characteristics like DMJava has that the intense AI of DM 2 can be rivalled...but be interesting to see what could be done...what imagination/mechanics etc could do.

For example, limiting the zone/amount of thieves, I'm sure the grabbing from the ground and depositing it in a certain location could be done. Little things compared to the fyull Dm2...but nice to see. Maybe one day I'll get round to trying out some of the ideas I have in general....one day...

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:59 am

I still haven't figure out the big interest in minions, i never used them and finished DM/DM2/CSB/RTC several times... Are they any use to advance in levels because of their magic level or what ?

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:20 pm

No, they are just suppsoed to be a nice tactical addition - placing attack minions to deal with large numbers of creatures, using guards to stop from being flanked/disturbed, with enemy minions used to create a constant threat and blocking of your game moves

Whikle an interesting concept, in practice never liked/used them
I think except to deal with Dargoth, and even then you generate alot of minions to keep him/his busy, and you find yourself takign as much time to generate them as it is to just kill his and get close to him instead

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:20 am

I would be satisfied with everything minus the AI. I want a game with multiple terrain capabilities, towns and stores, the DM2 items and their stats, and a recreation of the DM2 dungeon, minus the enemies. Enemies can be worked out later, or replaced. You might have trouble creating moving pits, too. RTC is great, but DM2 has some special things that no DM clone has: the ability to cast spell, open chests/bags/quivers, and the ability to attack with either hand-with just one boxed-off interface. No clones I have seen can use both hands for attacks. I think that the DM1 interface is too restricting, and a liitle clumsy. The tabs work OK, but they change size when another is clicked on to make room for the name. I DONT like that part. If I knew anything about java, I would make my own changes to DM Java and hopefully get approval to post an official release or something. But I don't have the patience to learn Java or look at the DM Java code.

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:21 pm

I like DMJava, but have you really seen how UGLY the frigging game is ? give me the old DM any time !!! if you could do something like Warcraft III in graphics now THAT would be something.

Post by **linflas** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:59 pm

about the bags/quivers, i'm pretty sure that RTC could handle this with a cloned chest object (different gfx, weight, type/size of objects in, number of items). maybe it's already been suggested..
what do you mean exactly by "ability to cast spell" ? what is the difference between DM and DM2 (except for the new spells) ?

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:47 pm

Look at this screenshot:

http://www.gamingbliss.com/games/unsort ... aster2.jpg

The little pointing finger selects the "leader", or the person who is picking up objects when you click on them.
The two hands are for attacking, opening boxes/bags that are in them, drinking potions, etc.
The speech bubble with the ! is for casting spells (they remember uncasted spells if you close the box, just like DM)

I think that this interface is just so much easier to perform actions and spells than DM1, assuming you have a mouse.

Post by **Gambit37** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:10 pm

It's funny how people see things differently. I thought that they messed up the interface in DM2 with those changes. It's harder to cast lots of spells at the same time, because the icons are further apart. You also can't see the spell runes at the same time as the weapons which is pretty silly really. The icons that were introduced next to each magic rune were completely redundant and a waste of space, because you are never taught the runes in either manual or the game. You're just shown their symbols, so what's the point of explaining what they mean -- DM2 obviously assumes knowledge from playing the earlier games, even though the design suggests otherwise.

It's also trickier to use chests and pouches because they open over that area, whereas in DM you could still cast spells while fiddling in your inventory. On the whole, I think the DM2 interface is worse than the orginal game.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:20 pm

lol, same here, i hated the all in one attack/spell/movement interface
I much prefered everything seperated, so you could keep a weapon and spell option available during battle, and still do other things too. The ultimate nightmare in DM2 is having to rake around for somethign in a chest while tryign to cast spells while tryign to fight. In DM you can multitask and get in blows, spells and searching as the fight allows. Also, as you say multiple spellcasting is so easy in the first DM.
Well, I guess that was the thinking for moving everything though - to make it easier to select options, rather than making it easier to multitask. In a way, it's more realistic to be distracted by searching in combat, and to need concentration for spells. But i prefered the DM options : )

Post by **linflas** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:55 pm

ermmm.. thanks for the tutorial but i already knew all about this, and of course i follow gambit's and beowuuf's opinions..
and what i suggest for enhancing DM interface would be :
- suppress the directionnal arrows (we ALL play with keys) and that could give some space for :
- two weapons in hands

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 4:51 pm

How about an interface (atacks/spells) like Final Fantasy ? of course, the monsters would really have to freeze, not delay their atacks...

Post by **linflas** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:12 pm

please no ! maybe you can create a freezing spell, and many others, you can add a new set of 6 runes or changing the current ones, but please don't touch to DM spell system : learning the runes by heart, missing the right rune because you're in trouble : that's what i love in DM

EDIT :
with the original runes i've imagined a spell that could transform a bottle of water into a freeze bomb.
tadaaaaaa ! ZO GOR ROS !

- ZO absorbs the water
- GOR is needed to invert...
- ...ROS which is dexterity

ermmm.. see ?

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:23 am

Well, I'd rather have a complete clone of DM2 that has small editing capabilites-like DMute can do to CSB an DM. I agree that the pictures shouldn't be there, but new spells in DM2 would make it even easier than it already is. However, adding another rank of 6 symbols with 10 or so more spells (but make the last rank the most expensive! The last in DM2 is cheaper than the 3rd..) and make them expensive, but useful. But not unfair. See the CSB spells thread. REALLY good spells should consume something that is rare or valuable, but not unique (unless the spell effect transforms something and is only ever suitable for 1-time use).

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:48 am

How about spells that transform items ? like Diablo II ? i think this has been sugested somewhere...

purple1 · Post by **purple1** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:34 pm

That's what I mean. For example: you have a Meteor Metal. IF you aslo have a Blue Gem in your hand, you can cast a spell that fuse the two into the Blue Steele. (Not an actual spell, you know). But the spell would need to take away something, so you can't randomly cast it as your heart desires. Powerful spells like this would be a great supplement to DM2 or a clone.

isamu99 · Post by **isamu99** » Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:00 pm

DeathScream wrote:I like DMJava, but have you really seen how UGLY the frigging game is ? give me the old DM any time !!!

Are you kidding?? The graphics in DMJ with Germanny's add-on graphics patch make DMJ look beautiful! Germanny did a fantastic job redrawing the walls to grey and modifying all kinds of other things like the weapons.

The entire DMJ game and its features are a MASSIVE improvement over the original old school DM. I can't even play the original DM anymore. I always crave DMJ and I'm very dissapointed that Alandale has abandoned the project. It's the best version of DM by far, simply because of how user friendly it is to modify and enhance. I hope someone here decides to pick up where Alandale and Germanny left off.

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:12 am

the whole point to DMJ is that you can make new graphics for it.. easily. Germanny is a great example of how someone with limited artistic skills can make a nice set of graphics for DM. 90% of the graphics in his set are slightly modified from images he found around the net as well as some of those from DMJ already.

It really isn't that hard. Just takes time and effort.

I might have been insulted by that "ugly" comment if not for the fact I was only responsible for about 10% games graphics and that was just the intro and the interface... oh.. and the floor.

and one of the portraits.. I think that was it. ..

Wismerhill · Post by **Wismerhill** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:17 pm

If anyone is interested, I'm in the process of rewritting DMJ into a clean and evolutive software architecture. I'm working on it for two months and it's going pretty well. I'm currently profoundly refactoring the code to enforce robustness and encapsulation. For the technically inclined, I'm separating data and their representation, following the classical MVC scheme, using the Observer pattern, events and so on.

This way, I plan to ease future modifications via a plugin framework and heavy use of text files to configure the whole game (spells, monsters, AI, etc). If everything goes well, it should be easy to change the GUI from swing to SWT for example. Also, the graphic engine will be separated from the data, enabling the plug of a 3D engine based on OpenGL bindings for example.
I also hope to make it multiplayer, which should not be too hard in Java and considering the fact that DM is not as demanding as a FPS in terms of speed and reliability, but I'm not sure it's a good thing: is the DM's gameplay suitable ? How would it be with 4 or 10 players at once ?

As with all part-time projects, I can't announce any release date or even promise that it will be finished one day, but I'm open to any suggestions.

The Journeyman · Post by **The Journeyman** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:50 pm

Sounds really like you know your stuff!

I also hope to make it multiplayer

Ye-haa! A chest full of gold coins for Wismerhill....We'll feast on worm rounds and drumsticks in the dungeon then! ..until that other fella is going to bash us with that axe of his, as we fell asleep over bad mana potions he offered us earlier in the riddle room.

DM-DM Deathmatch-Dungeon Master