Any new dungeons on the way?

Post by **PaulH** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:46 pm

If CSBWin could ref different graphics.dats at different points I would do this. Too difficult I fear, especially if things go wandering between areas. I did produce an alt wall set, but it was a bit dark and gloomy.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:07 pm

If CSBWin could ref different graphics.dats

I don't think this would be impossible. It would have to
be on a level basis. The people who wrote the original
code had that in mind....I can see traces of it in the code.
They probably did not do it for lack of physical space.
But the level descriptors have the graphic numbers for the
wallsets.

A Lot of things can go wrong. For exaample, text is displayed
and a piece of the wall is copied over the space between
blocks.

Post by **PaulH** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:41 pm

Level by level basis was what I had in mind. This would be quite useful and add more flexibility if possible. One level with trees, another with sand dunes, another with different monsters. If the graphics.dats were labeled graphics1 etc and the one you wanted to reference was set in CSBWin in the level descripy, this would be fantastic.

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:55 pm

*answering to linflas* Unreal 2 complex is when you have a looooong game, like Unreal, and turn it into a very VERY short game, like Unreal 2: The Awakening. Dungeon Master is a long and complex game by nature (except for trained dungeneers) and you want to turn him into a 6-8 levels game ?

Des · Post by **Des** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:17 pm

Going back a bit in the thread, I think Linflas has a point that the custom dungeon world has recently gone from a seller's to a buyer's market. Last year there was a dearth of new dungeons and any that were released were gobbled up. At the moment there are RTC dungeons coming through (at last) and several CSBWin efforts in the pipeline. Our community is a small one so if everyone is beavering away on their own dungeons they don't have much time for playing.

The CSBWin ones are strongly affected by new developments such as enhanced DSA commands and the impressive ADGE. My effort is nearing the completion of self-testing as a near-vanilla (some minor customisations) and I'm planning to wait for feedback from the beta release (if I get any!) in order to decide if I should apply some of the new groovee stuff to this or polish it off as is and start a new one. I'm currently leaning towards the latter as whilst it's quite fun it is very much a "first dungeon" effort.

Post by **linflas** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:24 am

@fallenseraphin : thanks for the info and i definitely agree with you about unreal 2 ! but i confirm my point of view about DM : new dungeons should be smaller and not made for hardcore dungeoneers only. if you plan to make a huge but finishable dungeon, then you must be very attentive with progression and avoid people from getting bored of it : i'm talking about different wallsets because it's the first idea that comes to me...

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:18 pm

And CSB is 'shorter' than DM, and yet insanely harder. And yes, I have taken a long break from dungeon because unless it has a really differnet feel (like ToC or Conflux, and differnet wall graphics did help) there are only so many times you can hack at a creature or do the same puzzle variant without wanting to take a break...new custom dungeons will succeed by being different or challenging, but a large custom dungeon can have great drawbacks in terms of fitting alot of new material in!

Post by **PaulH** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:03 am

To Mr Stevens: what is the possibilty of multiple graphics for CSBWin? There seems to be quite an interest here and would make the format compete more with RTC for those wanting some fresh blood.

Post by **Zyx** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:22 am

A new wall set for each level is only a solution to the player.

I've been wondering a lot about asking for this feature to Paul (it has been discussed long ago), but it is probably not worth it, since it means also loading another set of wall decorations. The dungeon package would be huge for little result. And the inversion in time and talent for only a few players seems unreasonable to me, imho.
I don't want to discourage people here! I'm trying to point out that it would be a huge effort. Out of curiosity, are there RTC dungeons with new wall sets? I didn't play them all but it is my understanding that this feature is possible for a long time already.

I agree that player's boredom is the worst ennemy of the designer, since a boring dungeon is a dungeon you quit playing.
The first short custom dungeons didn't need to worry about it: just playing a different maze was refreshing enough.
However, today, playing a large repetitive dungeon or several small similar dungeons entrails the same boredom problem (BTW did anyone try all the custom dungeons? at least all the small ones?)

So, basicly, putting aside the creative, artistic effort, (free poll: is it just an expensive eye candy to please the player, with no real effect on the gameplay?), you need to give a feeling of progression to keep the interest high.

Here are some thoughts about to achieve this:
- Exploring new zones, as long as they feel different by their layout, and content. (new wall sets could help here)
- Insist on a clear, unique purpose, strong enough to motive you to endure the boring parts in order to reach the goal.
- An unveiling plot. (like the Balance stuff in DM: you discover that "neither Chaos nor Order is truly balanced")
-Rising difficulty; monsters more dangerous.
-Progression of characters; new spells; better weapons, etc.
-Avoid repetitive fights, long empty corridors, useless returning journeys...

Any other ideas?

Post by **PaulH** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:33 am

As has been mentioned, it is now a players market. If three different graphics.dats are referenced throughout a dungeon we are talking of 1mb rather than about 330kb of graphics.dat data. I can't see that being too much of a problem! If graphics weren't an issue or affected gameplay, we'd all be playing text games! New graphics go a long way to quell this boredom. Sometimes. But I have seen it screw things up.

The bottom suggestions seem fairly obvious but can be difficult to achieve. Especially for the solo designer. It is a lot of work.

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:52 am

Just a few thoughts: I do think that different graphics do a lot for the fun. Towers of Chaos and Conflux II do feel a bit different than the original DM because of the new graphics. I didn't get quite the same feeling and atmosphere while playing Imprisoned Again - though IA is a great dungeon, it always felt to me like "just a different dungeon", while TOC and Conflux II felt more like different games. However, Zyx's argument is valid - the community is small, and I doubt it will be worth the work.

Speaking for myself, I am not much of a designer, more of an analyst - I can tell people what's good and what's bad and why, but I lack the creativity for coming up with something new. I do have, however, an idea for a dungeon - just the concept how it should play, not certain puzzles or anything. But since I have no idea how to actually build a dungeon, I don't even know if it is possible to create such a dungeon I envision. And like I said, I couldn't come up with enough interesting situations to actually build an interesting dungeon. If anybody is interested, feel free to ask me about the concept I have; maybe somebody who is more creative than me might make something out of it.

Post by **Zyx** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 12:54 am

I just made a package of dungeon today, including CSBwin, it was about 2.2Mb. It worries me, since this is becoming quite dissuasive for 56k users. They're probably a minority, but I was one of them until recently, so i can't help feeling some solidarity for them... (besides I like defending lost causes).

As for loneliness in creation... Hey... We're several solo designers with the same difficulties... Why not unite into a solos' group?

Post by **PaulH** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:03 am

For an enthusiast, 2.2meg is not a problem even for a 56k! I'd wait the little extra... have a cup of tea... it pales into insignificance compared to the amount of dungeon playing time.

If it is fairly easy to implement different dungeon.dats into CSBWin (Paul?) I think it IS worth it. Designing a new wall set is difficult, but on a basic scale involves drawing about 12 new graphics to change the basic walls. And I have a few sets lurking in my hard drive. This equals 3 new monsters.

Yes it is a lonely worls. Maybe we should collaborate. But Zyx, didn't you get help with the graphics?!

Trantor, I would like to hear your ideas. Email me!

Post by **Zyx** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:21 am

@Paul: Yes, and I'm still getting help! And the more I try to create things, the more I like bulls: at least they have horns to be taken by; unlike blank dungeons or sheets of paper.

Wait, wrong sentence.

The more I try to create things, the more I think the process should be shared and discussed among others. Not only the process is half the fun (after the release the dungeon comes to existence for the player, yet becomes "silent" ), but working with a team also allows a richness that surpasses any isolated talent. Furthermore, the difference between craft and art may be about this, about the linking you manage with other minds.

Otherwise the creative effort, even if it reaches its goal, may well be stained of sterility.

@Trantor: you should have a try at making your dungeon. It's a long but simple path...

Post by **PaulH** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:33 am

I agree that the process should be shared with others. After all I do not hide my dungeon away from the editors. I have been an advocate of simple dungeon engineering for a very long time and have always actively encouraged people to have a go at designing their own, taking Imprisoned Again as an ideal. Awkward editors should not be a bane to designing flair. However I do feel this is the case for some with certain aspects of the editors..

I would love to work in a team! I have asked for help/collaboration many a time ie on graphics, characters but nothing has been forthcoming.

Post by **Gambit37** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:38 am

I'd love to help you all, but I'm so disorganised at getting any of my own stuff done, that I would be the worst person to help any of you realise a dungeon. Zyx can attest to that.

Additionally, I would love to build my own dungeon, and have it as *my work*. Maybe that's selfish but there's something satisfying in doing it for yourself. *Cough* OK, so I'm 'borrowing' graphics from other sources to speed up the process of creating a custom dungeon, but you get the idea.

It all comes down to time though. If I didn't have to work and didn't have a social life, then I would spend all my time working on dungeons, The Codex, TRX and my many other projects. I don't get any of them finished because I'm too busy doing nothing...

Post by **Zyx** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:46 am

Don't believe the humble man! He's helping me right now with some impressive maps. But enough with praising! *SLASH* Get back to your cartography!

*locks again the massive door of his cell*

Post by **PaulH** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 1:54 am

Yeah Gambit, get drawing!

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:00 am

Thanks for the encouragement Zyx, but I doubt I would ever build my own dungeon. I just don't have the time or the patience for it; patience might actually be there if I had more time, come to think of it... But currently, I just have too many things to do.

Paul, I sent you a PM.

Post by **PaulH** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:01 am

I sent you one back! It is still in my outbox!

Trantor · Post by **Trantor** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:24 am

My bad Paul. I thought I would get a popup telling me I got a new message... Oh well. I'll answer right now.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:43 am

In terms of playing dungeon, I used to play every single custom dungoen, a practise that just stopped somewhere around the realse of Black Flame (which I never completed). Not exactly sure why, just DM fatigue and also doing other things (such as tryign to keep a LDR going!), and now I'm tryign to balance my free time and so things pile up or get prioritiesed : ) I haven't finished Half Life 2 yet either!
But I do download all the custom dungeosn (even the DM Java ones I will probably never play) and one day I will get through them!

As for building, same deal - I have many ideas, and occasionally tried to put stuff together, but it takes time to realise ideas, and then to bug fix. Especially since alot of the joy I got from building was pushign mechanics - trying to see how far they could go, and create something that pleased me, even if a player may not notice it as much. But all that takes time and effort, and so there you go : )

I know of deviantart there are art groups that get formed, where like people are placed together to critique each others work...should maybe do something like that : ) Maybe a small group forum with a few members for discussing ideas and reviewing the dungeons, that can't be accessed by the rest so the surprise on release is still there

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:18 pm

How about a new BlackCrypt or Eye Of The Beholder kinda dungeon ? they had all sorts of diferent wall decals... i personally would love to see BlackCrypt 2

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:50 pm

MY dungeon is on the way, but it`s written onto DMjava. It will be about 20 SMALL levels (I have completed only 12 now), but right now i have no time to finish it

maybe after two -three months it will be done completly. would You like to play?

Post by **PaulH** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:23 am

DM Java seems very tempermental on my computer, so until it behaves I'll have to say no. I ask this all designers: why DMJava, rather than the other formats? Just interested to know!

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:42 am

Because it was a finsihed format - so people probably started designing ages ago. Or, of course it has lots of shiny new features in a shiny editor too : )

Adamo · Post by **Adamo** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:24 pm

To Paul H: why DMJava, rather than the other formats?
One year ago I was working on RTC, but it was an early version (v0,28 I think). I did a lot of work (a couple of huge levels), but that editor wasn`t warking properly, so I couldn`t even test my project, nor finishing it. Then I send an e-mail to George Gilbert with my letter, my work and log file. He send me back and wrote, that maybe there is something with graphics (the game turned off sometimes while testing, without any reason). When I was checking it in the editor it seems there wasn`t any log errors. So I gave it up and started working on DM Java. Now I know , that there is a new version of RTC, wchich I heard is much better than v0,28, wchich I was using in the past. Now I cannot change the editor, because I did too much in DMjava, I also can`t convert or rewrite it to RTC, because of , as You know, a lot of restrictions/limitations in DMJava, wchich I was hard-fighting with ( I mean mainly one wall decoration on each tile, etc,).

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:19 pm

The good thing about RTC now is that George is happy seeming with the format he's introduced a backwards compatibility to previous version up to 0.28 or 0.24, which is cool

Mindstone · Post by **Mindstone** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:17 pm

I just made my first infact. I wanted to spend a week creating, but as is the way with me I did rush and finish in 3 days. Oh well.

http://dmweb.free.fr/Forum/download.php?7,101/nom.RTC

Are you supposed to give links on this thread? Or declare your making one and not declare your finished, oh i dont know, just play thanks

Des · Post by **Des** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:49 pm

My first dungeon (Angel's Egg) has had no work done on it for about three months, which is a shame as it's nearly done (as a near-vanilla, I decided that a super-customised doohickey using ADGE would be my next effort).

OK, I was suddenly very busy with other things, so it was "Dungeonus Interruptus" but I simply haven't got back into it - I think the initial rush of enthusiasm petered out just too soon. Anyway I'm hoping to get it polished off in the next few weeks.

P.S. The dungeon's story is based on an album by the psychedelic rock group Gong, not the Manga movie of the same name. I was saddened to hear that the band's drummer / percussionist Pierre Moerlen died recently at the tender age of 52.