Dungeon Master Forum

you should make an item maker
display all possible item atributes and such, im tired of being limited to pre existing items and having to clone them, that sux, no offense.

I'm not sure what allowing you to create new items from scratch would allow you to do that you can't do already by cloning. If you can give me a definitive example, then I'll see what I can do for you!

In fact, cloning items will be much easier than creating them from new. Each object has about 200 separate parameters (most of which are to do with the internal mechanics) and so would be the same for most types of object. Also, given the variety of objects already in DM / CSB, new objects tend to be vaguley similar to an existing one (e.g. a sword, or a missile, or food or a potion or a key etc etc). Again, if there's a new class of object that you'd like to see that can't be done, just let me know, but at the moment, I think that creating items from scratch would actually be *more* work for you than cloning!

Yeah, I agree with GG.

A lot of us had a similar view initially BillyGoat, but trust me, it is far better to base item creation off something that already exists. Take some time to reallt explore the egnine, it's actually a lot more powerful than it appears at first glance.

GG said:

Each object has about 200 separate parameters (most of which are to do with the internal mechanics)

I also agree with GG.
But I`m just curiosed, what are these parameters? Could anyone make a list of these parameters (or at least most of them)?

Nearly all of them are internal to indicate how the engine mechanics should handle the object. For example, there's one that indicates if the object can be used as a relay, another indicating if its stairs etc.

As I said, you really wouldn't want to have to set all of them from scratch; its much easier to clone a similar object and have them set for you! More importantly, they don't let you do anything that can't already be done by the existing cloning.

BTW, I'm not trying to be secretive here - its just that they won't help you and as nobody needs to know about them there's no point confusing the editor!

Nobody -needs- to know, but we're a curious lot.

I wouldn't mind being able to set the "is a pit" bit on something that you can carry around... portable hole! Hehe!

Sophia wrote:I wouldn't mind being able to set the "is a pit" bit on something that you can carry around... portable hole! Hehe! :lol:

I know, and that particular example is one I've thought of before. However, it would require alot of additional code to handle the is-a-pit bit being set on anything but a flooritem. There's also the design problem of what to do if you drop a "pit" over a wall and fall down it - not to mention if you drop a pit on some stairs and end up in a nasty recursive loop. The interdependencies between all these internal settings are best left as being internal as it greatly simplifies the engine!

well, I wouldn`t mind to make it possible to make "portable teleporters". When you`d put in on the wall it becomes a "normal" teleporter (set to teleporting party and/or things and/or monsters). These portable teleporters could be set to the start point as the destination, for example. It would be good for the large, Xlarge, and/or very complicated dungeons, where it`s easy to get lost. In that case, if you want to come back to the start point (if you completely got lost or dont want to return 1000 kilometers), you put it on the wall and teleporting yourself there. Or throwing tons of stuff there, wchich you cannot carry, because of the space limits in a bag - it`ll be teleported to the startpoint (if you want to make a "magazine" there).

The whole idea is that it becomes a teleporter only with reaction with the floor (when you put it or throw it)....

or - if you stuck in a place, that you cannot get out from (a nasty trap, where you can just starving till death without any possibility of return). "Last chance of return".
Or a "surprise" - you got lost, you put that portable teleporter on a wall, thinking that you`ll return to the startpoint, but a destination is set to monster cavern

Some logical happens now: you drop in on a pit - it falls down to level below and then reacts with a floor; you drop it on a stairs - that`s very dangerous bahaviour, because stairs now becomes teleporting! ; you put it on the alcove - it doesn`t work (nothing changes); you put it on the active teleporter - it teleports the "portable teleporter" to the destination point, where reacts with the floor and makes another teleporter on a destination point of previous one; you put it on active teleporter, that is not teleporting things (party & monsters only) - ?????; you throw it on a monster - it teleports him to the destination point (if it`s set to "monster teleporting" of course; and if it wont stay in his body, but fall down and react with a floor); that`s all, I think

I hope you wont kill me GG, it`s all just a theory - like "WHAT WOULD HAPPEN, IF..." (I like "alternative history")

or maybe a teleporting spell..

There's several ways teleportation is done in games, all of which are useful in some ways...

Teleport spells with fixed destinations - Found in such games as EQ. You may have, say, a spell called "Zap to Dragon Lair" which zaps you to a room with a dragon (duhh), and another one called "Zap to Temple" which ports you to a temple place with an Altar of Rebirth, and so on. You would need the spell for that destination in order to port there if you couldn't be arsed/were unable to run on foot.
Fixed teleports which zap you to other such points - Found in Diablo II and called "Waypoints" there. Basically as you progress further from the start town in a section, various zones contain a Waypoint which is, like, a square thing on the floor that lights up when you stand on it. This means you can use it to teleport to other Waypoints you've triggered (there is one in the town of that Act which is auto-activated when you enter that Act).
Portable port to fixed location - Found in Diablo II, called "Town Portal Scroll". You carry an item which you click to port you to a certain location. In the case of Diablo, this opens a port which goes to the town for that Act (each Act, ie section of the game, has a town in which you start, nothing can kill you, and there are merchants and stuff for quests and buying/selling/repairing). You can then re-enter the portal and it zaps you back to where you were (and closes). Obviously in this case, a TP scroll is a one-shot thing so you need a bunch of them (they can go in a Tome of TP which holds a max of 20 scrolls) ideally. But an alternative would be to have a single item with multiple charges.
Portable port between Waypoint thingys - Found in Pagan (Ultima VIII). Scattered around the world are these things called Recall Pads, which look like square pad things on the ground (similar to aforementioned WPs in Diablo). When you approach one, it raises up a little and lights up. At some point you are given a small thingy called an Item of Recall. You click this and you can then port to any of the Recall Pads you've already activated. There is one place in the game from where you can't Recall, but if you just leave that area you can still do it. A similar thing is in Might and Magic where you have the Town Portal spell - at low skill levels, it just ports you to the nearest town (and only works outdoors), but at Master level you are offered a choice of all the major towns in the game, to whicih you can port as often as you like and from wherever you like (provided you have the mana to cast the spell of course).
Set destination for clicky port - Fonud in Morrowind. There are two spells, "Mark" and "Recall". You go to a place and cast Mark. Later, when you're somewhere else, you cast Recall and it ports you back to the Mark. You don't have to set a new Mark once you've ported there - that Mark remains the same unless you cast Mark again somewhere else. There is a similar idea in Might and Magic, a spell called Lloyd's Beacon. You cast the spell and hae two choices - "Set Beacon" or "Recall Beacon". Depending on your skill level, you can set one, three, or five beacons. You can set a beacon wherever you like, and port back to it whenever you like (using "Recall Beacon", of course). Beacons only last a certain amount of days, however (again, depending on your skill level), so you have to remember to refresh them every now and then or they disappear.
Clicky port to nearest place - Found in Morrowind. There are these two spells, "Divine Intervention" and "Almsivi Intervention". Divine ports you to the nearest legion fort shrine thing, while Almsivi ports you to the nearest temple altar shrine thingy. Thus, once you know where all said shrine places are, you can be in the middle of nowhere and think "Right, I want to go to blah-blah-town, which port shall I use..." and look at the map and see which town is closest and port to there and blah.

Well umm that ended up as kind of a list of different wanys to teleport in about fifty different games lol. Most of those wouldn't even work in DM anyway so I dunno why I listed 'em. I like typing. Ssh.

Well, you're right, as long as you leave all of those variables not exposed to the user, it greatly simplifies things, so I perfectly understand where you're coming from. However, let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment

It's not so terrible, really, provided we're willing to accept a few design limitations-- when the "pit" is dropped, first make sure it's on the floor. Then, check if there are any flooritems sharing its space that are pits, stairs, or other teleporting type actions. If that's the case, don't deploy it. Then, check the level below-- if there is solid rock below, don't deploy it. Otherwise, deploy the hole.

I will say that all that was just for the sake of argument, the truth is, a dungeon with a "portable hole" in it would be very tough to design for, since it would be very easy to just drop into any inaccessible areas, so I doubt if there's likely to be much practical interest-- in other words, I think you're still off the hook.

George Gilbert wrote:I know, and that particular example is one I've thought of before. However, it would require alot of additional code to handle the is-a-pit bit being set on anything but a flooritem. There's also the design problem of what to do if you drop a "pit" over a wall and fall down it - not to mention if you drop a pit on some stairs and end up in a nasty recursive loop. The interdependencies between all these internal settings are best left as being internal as it greatly simplifies the engine!

The portable hole would be a usable idea in a dungeon which progresses upwards, like a tower or pyramid, rather than one in which you're supposed to work your way deeper.

A teleport spell could be: Lo -> teleport one square forwards up to Mon -> teleport six squares forwards. I'm hesitant about whether implementing this would be beneficial, because it would invalidate so many things like pits and teleport squares in dungeon design.

What I'd personally like to see are castable confuse, fear, and freeze life effects.

I believe George will have a 'done for 0.35' statement to make about that. Umm, I think anyway...

Yep - castable confuse, fear and freeze life (along with all other actions) are done in V0.35...

George Gilbert wrote:Yep - castable confuse, fear and freeze life (along with all other actions) are done in V0.35...

How can I persuade you to release this version? Bribery? Beer?

By waiting...it's not like he's mocking you with his private copy only he plays with or something! : )

beowuuf wrote:it's not like he's mocking you with his private copy only he plays with or something! : )

Well, you say that. I've actually been sunning myself in Maritius for the last year, and occasionally posting "done in V0.35" for entertainment

And the funny thing is I'm now starting to believe that...

I refer the honourable gentleman to his previous post

yes it is