Dungeon Master Forum

One thing that DM2 did, is it allowed you to walk (seemingly) from one wallset to another. RTC could have this same functionality added to it by adding a new object I am going to call a "Camera".

The idea behind this is that there would be a Teleporter and a Camera on the same floortile. The camera would display a location on another level (with a different wallset). When you walk into that space, the teleporter takes you to the square that the camera was pointing at on the other level. To the player, this action would be seemless. The camera could also display creatures traveling though the teleporter, thrown items, ect.

I can think of tons of other uses for this such as traps and tricks, but the main use is clear. (a camera on a walltile would also be interesting to play around with)

Is this a possibe feature to add to RTC? Is this an idea that other people would find useful as well?

it would be good if that "camera" shows monster`s movement!

A camera is an interesting idea in its own right, but the example you use (DM2 being able to walk from one wallset to another seamlessly) can already be done (in V0.36).

See http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=20197

The mechanism in DM2 isn't a 'camera' as you describe. The 'mechanism' of the transition is an optical trick - the map behind transition isn't draw, what is drawn is just a flat bitmap. Ever noticed why there aren't any 'curves' directly after the transitions? It's because that one optical trick... if a curve would be encountered too soon, the whole illusion would be shattered. Transitions resemble more of stairs rather than 'smooth' bridges between the levels.

If you rip out DM2 graph data you will see a lot of transition bitmaps. that were used in the game.

George Gilbert wrote:A camera is an interesting idea in its own right, but the example you use (DM2 being able to walk from one wallset to another seamlessly) can already be done (in V0.36).

See http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=20197

Sorry, I just used the DM2 example so that you could visualize what I was talking about (I'm a visual person). On a per-tile basis may not be my ideal solution, but at least it's a solution! Still, I can think of some great puzzles and other optical tricks that a camera would work perfectly for!

Yeah have a "camera" be seen through a mirror or glass wall to view parts of the dungeon. Sorta likea control room. I think this could be useful in making Light/Dark world dungeons too!

Just bringing this back up, purely because of the last couple of comments.

I particularly like the idea of a camera object, not because of the transition idea which is already doable, but because of the "crystal ball" effect.

I like the idea of being able to look down a corridor and "see" what is happening on another level. You could create by cloning something a large wall sized mirror which was actually a hole in the wall and by placing a camera onto another level behind it it would create the illusion of looking into a large wall mirror and seeing what is happening on another level of the dungeon.

I support this idea too! To have a tower with an actually usable Palantir in it's top chamber would be pretty cool!

Lunever wrote:I support this idea too!

You of all people would be the first to complain bitterly if I did this because the frame rate would plumment (at least by a factor of 2, probably a bit more) because of the engine having to draw two views and then having to rescale it to fit the "screen".

Furthermore there's complications with recursivity (the camera being able to see the screen), and possibly more imporantly lighting (the engine currently assumes all light is either ambient or eminates from the partys tile; that would no longer be true if there was a camera).

Although I agree that it would be a neat effect, in practice I think it would require an awful lot of work to the engine to get right. One for later rather than sooner.

One to fudge with dungeon mechanics!

Ok, I didn't think about effects on the frame rate. Yet, "one for later", at some "later" I'll have a newer board too

Hi George,

I'm not sure I understand the issues with this one.
What has recursivity got to do with it? The camera is pointing at a different area of the dungeon, probably a different level. It shouldn't be able to see the screen. You wouldn't need to deal with this on the engine level, because it would be up to the designer not to put the camera somewhere where it could see itself. Just issue an error if they try to do so.

As far as the frame rate dropping is concerned, why exactly? As far as the player is concerned they are just looking down a corridor. The fact that the corridor contains something from a different level is irrelevant - why is drawing a corridor on another level any more frame rate intensive than drawing the corridor on this level? I'm assuming the engine wouldn't actually draw the view on this level and then draw the view on the other level OVER it afterwards!

And what does "recale to fit the screen" mean? What rescaling is required. What the player sees is exactly the same as what he would see if he was there. I'm not suggesting putting the view inside a mirror or anything - just draw it as though the player was there. What is being rescaled?

Chaos Awakes wrote:Hi George,

I'm not sure I understand the issues with this one.
What has recursivity got to do with it? The camera is pointing at a different area of the dungeon, probably a different level. It shouldn't be able to see the screen. You wouldn't need to deal with this on the engine level, because it would be up to the designer not to put the camera somewhere where it could see itself. Just issue an error if they try to do so.

As far as the frame rate dropping is concerned, why exactly? As far as the player is concerned they are just looking down a corridor. The fact that the corridor contains something from a different level is irrelevant - why is drawing a corridor on another level any more frame rate intensive than drawing the corridor on this level? I'm assuming the engine wouldn't actually draw the view on this level and then draw the view on the other level OVER it afterwards!

And what does "recale to fit the screen" mean? What rescaling is required. What the player sees is exactly the same as what he would see if he was there. I'm not suggesting putting the view inside a mirror or anything - just draw it as though the player was there. What is being rescaled?

I think we're mis-understanding eachother. I thought you meant a camera and a screen (i.e. a wallitem like a flatscreen TV). The camera would take a snapshot of the dungeon as if the party was standing where the camera was and that image would be scaled to fit into the "screen".

What I now think you're saying is that an entire wall is replaced by the view behind an entire wall somewhere else. Is that right?

George Gilbert wrote: What I now think you're saying is that an entire wall is replaced by the view behind an entire wall somewhere else. Is that right?

Yes, that's right. I just want to look down a corridor and see the view from a point somewhere else as though I'm standing there. By putting an invisible wall in front of the view or some such mechanics, the dungeon designer could stop people walking down the corridor - or, as has been suggested elsewhere, a teleporter could be placed there (without blue haze or sound) which teleports the party to the camera destination. In that way, you could create portals from one area of the dungeon to another or the ability to walk from one wallset to another.

Chaos Awakes wrote:or the ability to walk from one wallset to another.

You can do that already (see the labyrinth example dungeon).

Ah, but not if you're moving to a different level at the same time. It would be as though you could "see" through a teleporter. That would open up all sorts of possibilities. Magic mirrors for seeing other areas of the dungeon, portals, etc.