Custom Dungeons for Dummies...?

[Daecon]

Is there a beginner's guide on how to make a custom dungeon?

Or, rather, can any of you designing adepts give a poor n00b any pointers on how to make a good dungeon game?

I expect I'll be using Return to Chaos to make one with, if that makes any difference...

[Trantor]

It does. For CSBWin, I could have given you some hints, but as far as RTC goes, I know as much as you do.

The best hint in general I think is this: Open the editor, load the original games (preferrably DM, as CSB is *quite* confusing in parts [read: 90% of the dungeon]), then look at how the basic things are done there.

[beowuuf]

Trantor is completely right, open the originals and see how it is done.

Also, sophia's editing guide actually gives you at the end a few examples of interesting mechanics wit hthe new methods. Seeing how they interact gives you how thigns work now too

Really, read the posts here - people ask questios nand get them answered, so many thigns you might want to know will eb around - perhaps in the RTC archive now

[George Gilbert]

I agree too! Use the editor to have a look at the existing dungeons and copy-and-adapt bits to suit your needs.

Before you do that though, make sure you have a good idea of what you want to do and if you can't work out how to do it using "well known" mechanics, then as beowuuf suggests just ask questions and someone is bound to be able to help.

[Gambit37]

I'd argue that mechanics are only half the story. Really good scenarios are well thought out and designed before you go anywhere near the computer.

Things that work well include:

1) Anticipation
Showing part of the dungeon early on that you can't get to - maybe through a door or beyond some pits. This creates curiosity and anticipation and a real 'aha!' moment when you finally reach that area. True 3D games do this very well, the early Tomb Raiders are a great example.

2) Logical purpose/consistent scenario
I know some people will argue that logic isn't required in a chaotic dungeon, but I'd argue the exact opposite. Make sure your solutions to problems make sense in the context of the scenario you created. If you're in a medieval magical fantasy, lasers obviously won't wash. And make sure that you retain consistency of design in everything you do, especilly if you are using custom imagery -- photo-realistic walls and disney cartoon monsters don't really go well together (unless your theme is disney cartoons of course!)

3) Balanced gameplay
OK, this is obviously a huge area, but things to bear in mind:
i) Players feel most motivated when making regular progress. Ensure you give them rewards and experience early on.
ii) Don't overwhelm them with over-the-top monster hordes -- these generally aren't fun.
iii) Early easily-solvable puzzles foster a sense of progression and whet the player's appetite for more. Too hard to start with -- even for experienced players -- is likely to put people off.
iv) Difficult battles should be worthwhile -- reward the player with bonuses relevant to the severity of the battle. Killing a wimpy mummy and receiving the firestaff is too much -- similarly, defeating the dragon and getting a stick is hardly fair...

4) Restraint.
Just because you can chuck a load of fancy and cool effects into your dungeon doesn't mean you should. Question all your choices. Does the dungeon really need x-effect here when I already used it on the level above? Cool stuff is only cool if you haven't seen it before -- overuse becomes tiresome.

5) Ambience
I think this is one area that designers are really failing on. We've all seen the grey DM walls a thousand times. If you have artistic ability (and even if you don't), try making new wallsets -- with Whack, you can get rough stuff working very quickly. In addition:
i) Sound plays a major role -- small incidental 'stings' can alert or alarm the player, ambient loops such as water drips or wind can elicit a certain feeling and even full music, used wisely, can set or complement the mood created in your level
ii) Decorate! Too many dungeons are bland and uninspiring. Add detail to set the mood. Puddles and moss on a damp level, cracks and rock falls in unstable areas, etc etc...
iii) Lighting. Only applicable to RTC really, but some of the new features allow for quite spooky effects. You obviously can't get the true 3D lighting of a modern FPS but you can go some way to creating the right mood.

Hope some of that helps!

(You can see, I'm really a frustrated game designer!)

[Daecon]

Hey thanks a lot! That's some really helpful ideas on what makes a good dungeon!

I have no real idea about how to manipulate relays and counters and things that aren't simply plug-and-play mentalities, so I'll try a simple puzzle idea.

I'll play around with some designs with pen and paper and see what I can come up with, maybe basing it on an idea I had for a board game, that should be able to translate pretty well.

[beowuuf]

Lol, and this is a question that has been asked and answered before, but I like Gambit's explanation and might copy it here whiel moving the thread to the RTC forum...you know, at some point

[beowuuf]

GG made the basics of RTC basic - counters and relays are very, very simple buildign blocks. See soem of the 'complex' Dm puzzles like king milius or the two levers on the mummy level of the moving pits on level 12 to see how easy it can be

[zoom]

Gambit, I have to say : Great post!
It encourages to make dungeons and is a good read, too!
(after all, your frustration was not useless )

[Ameena]

Lol yeah I was reading through that and comparing all the points to my dungeon - I think I'm doing okay on everything except ambience .
Of course, I haven't actually done anything on my dungeon for about six months, but I will get round to it. One day. Eventually. Probably.

[zoom]

progress is critical to a custom dungeon, ameena.
How are you supposed to know what is going on in your
dungeon, if you do not know where you where !
(comparable to books you didn't read for two months
- it is hard to remember again..that is why we can reread
books) Nevertheless good luck for your dungeon!

I think it is best to make a very small dungeon as a start.
This is for getting used to the editor. It gets finished
relatively quick (hopefully) and so could encourage more .

[Gambit37]

Just another note about my post: Anticipation -- it's actually quite hard to do this well in these fake 3D dungeons because you can't show much ahead of the player. DM hardly had any at all, though CSB was better in this regard (Death Row for example).

I'm not sure the best way you can handle this, given you can only see three tiles ahead, but with clever use of "window" ornaments or unopenable doors showing the view in other areas, it should be possible to at least raise some curiosity in the player.

A lot of my post came from stuff I learnt making Doom and Duke 3D levels, but is transferrable to dungeons, more or less.

[beowuuf]

Making special wall items that look like a longer view, or of course having staged attacks (like the Half lIfe bits where somethign attacks and you don't know what til later, or heard a weird noise then see the thing afterwards'

[sucinum]

DM hardly had any at all

You could meet Lord Chaos far before getting the Firestaff - and you pass the Tomb long before you can unlock it. The "skeleton stairs" with winged key-hole at the end was also a big motivation (and a hammer like "how much harder can it get?"). So i wouldn't agree that DM didn't have this.
With all other points i fully agree and there is only a small thing i have to add:
Don't overdo monster generators!

[Ameena]

"How are you supposed to know what is going on in your
dungeon, if you do not know where you where!"
I hadn't done too much to it, and I can remember the "plot" of my dungeon - I'd already decided on the basic structure for it, but couldn't think of suitable puzzles and stuff for in between the bits I'd thought of .
Anyway, it's not like I hadn't been testing it out and stuff...when I'm in a proper dungeon-making mood, I'll get back on with it and carry on from where I left off.

[Gambit37]

You could meet Lord Chaos far before getting the Firestaff - and you pass the Tomb long before you can unlock it. The "skeleton stairs" with winged key-hole at the end was also a big motivation (and a hammer like "how much harder can it get?").

Indeed! These were what I was thinking of -- I can't think of any others, hence "hardly any at all"...

Actually, come to think of it, there aren't many in CSB either, but let's not take this thread off topic...



Another thing worth re-iterating is monsters and monster generators. I think people [designers] have a tendency to throw in loads of really tough monsters when they've run out of interesting things to do but want to create a 'challange'. Nothing wrong with this per-se as long as you're sensible with it -- the monster floods in CSB were just about manageable, but imagine them never stopping -- it gets tiresome real quick. Don't overdo your monsters!

[zoom]

Ameena, I see, so you are on the save side!

[[possible chaos strikes back spoiler ahead]]


One csb monster generator can be set to idle with the crown of nerra in inventory. (rives)
I remember also some accumulation of worms, somewhere in the depths of csb.
Haven't actually played this game for years,I still remember that these were fun to blast to pieces and did
not respawn to that extent again, once depleted.
so you can make sure that players do not go too far too soon, and the worms would be a major obstacle, but anyway.

How about experience multiplicators and monster hps?
Those can easily screw the whole dungeon, for there is no real guideline. Rats with 100 health are much tougher
than screamers with 150 health(at least I think so?armour?)
If you progress too slow it gets tedious, too fast and it just not feels right. So try try and test .
When to give which weapons is a sensitive matter, as well, if a bit different .
Don't give them a flask and they won't find that nice, do not give them a decent weapon midway and they will curse the punching ..just my 2p

[Ameena]

Also, things like "midway" can be rather nebulous definitions in chaotic dungeons like CSB, where you could theoretically be at almost any point in the dungeon after any duration of time - in a really hard area when you've just started, or in a really easy area after three hours of playing. The addition of a cool wep or other such item can be welcomed to different degrees depending on what kind of circumstances you're in when you find it.

[zoom]

that 's what I liked about dm. steady progression. You knew when you were in the middle.
csb has a completely different approach- I think it can be more rewarding and challenging in the long run , like it gives you possibilities to find quicker ways to a place, disappearing items etc.
In dm you cannot do much wrong. Really , I have to think what I would like better.. hmm. for long term play , it could be csb! That's strange..For progression(regarding items ) dm.
So I think a good dungeon would have a start like dm(a bit harder maybe), down some levels and then get more complex until the last levels are more like csb ..