Dungeon Master Forum

I haven't got CSB so I want to know.

It's a natural continuation from the end of DM, so if you havn't played DM then you don't stand a chance, but if you have it's not so bad.

Whether it's "harder" or not if you've played DM though is tough to say though. Intrinsically yes it is, but if you can complete DM, then you'll be fine with CSB so in that light, no it isn't!

I hope that was as unhelpful as possible

Well, if you haven't played DM first then you should really anyway, since it's, like, the original starter dungeon. As GG says, you probably wouldn't stand a chance in CSB if it was the first dungeon you tried playing.
Personally I find bits of CSB easy and/or great fun, but then again other areas are nasty and death and just generally eeeevil. But other people might find the fun bits hard and the eeevil bits a laugh - it may depend on your style of play.
Ooh look I'm descending into waffly crap again. Umm...well yeah...if oyu haven't played DM first, do so to get a feel for the general gameplay etc. Tackle CSB after you've finished DM. But I bet that even if you played DM through five times really fast without dying, you will die in CSB. A lot.

Yes, harder, there can't be any question about it. CSB IS designed for DM veterans. It is much harder, but, absolutely worthwhile because it has such a brilliantly and diabolically clever design. Play DM a couple of times, and if you are firm in playing DM, play CSB and have fun with one of the most devious and most brilliant dungeons ever.

DM2 though is more designed for beginners though. Most DM and CSB veterans found it to be to easy.

Lunever wrote: DM2 though is more designed for beginners though. Most DM and CSB veterans found it to be to easy.

Which is interesting, since I remember that magazines complained about how the game was much too hard when DM2 first came out. I also thought it was rather easy, though in parts terribly annoying.

CSB is *much* harder than DM. Not only are the monsters, puzzles and traps generally harder, but it is very difficult to find your way around. In DM, you more or less go straight ahead until you find the stairs down. Not so in CSB. You almost never really know where you are or where you have to go. That's the biggest difference between DM and CSB, so the experience is quite different.

Lunever wrote:DM2 though is more designed for beginners though. Most DM and CSB veterans found it to be to easy.

Trantor wrote:Which is interesting, since I remember that magazines complained about how the game was much too hard when DM2 first came out. I also thought it was rather easy, though in parts terribly annoying.

Maybe that's because they were veterans, and not starting their DM experiences with DMII.

I would imagine people who have never played a Dungeon Master game before would find DMII quite hard.

I find CSB very difficult because I always get lost, and don't know what I have to do or where to go next. There doesn't seem to be any real "path" to follow.

I think csb is , compared to dm much harder at the beginning.
Midway it is still demanding , but comparable to dm.

csb: You stand in the dark, facing worms bare handedly without
sth. to eat. This makes you believe it is harder.
Puts some people off, maybe rightly so ?
Talk about first impressions forming one's opinion...

Apart from that , I think some puzzles in csb are much more
unforgiving, (sometimes even great) and since you do not have
a real idea where to go falling down pits makes you wander
around aimlessly even more- but not for long,because you find
new places this way. This is the point:
You do not face a door and need to find the appropriate key
to continue the game, it does not matter if you pass the door
in csb, you will most likely find another way around.
(csb is not really that linear.)

In my opinion when playing csb you have to often attune to
new situations and be quick about it, whereas in DM you have
much more time to prepare yourself, level for level.

In the end, csb has more shortcuts available, ultimately giving
a taste of a compact dungeon
(you reach places you want /or not want to go rather fast)
and if the monster generators are switched off by carrying
some special items, you get a cake walk near the end.
Dungeon master is constructed more like that you enter a level
and stay there; gives you a feel to "be" on level 8, for example.
(csb gave me a level feel only on lv1 and lv5 towards the end)
In DM it is rather dull to walk back to the beginning from lv.14.
In csb this is not as bad.
In csb you take little steps towards your goal(s), as said,
confrontated from level to level with puzzles and monsters in
altering intensiveness.

Csb, to make a closing , let's you find the big weapons much
earlier in game. Dm was not as "careless" about the way powerful
weapons were distibuted among the dungeon.
(given time you get your dragon poleyn in csb)

Experience levels are gained quicker in csb. at least that is my
feeling. If you are comfortable getting over some obstacles
right at the start, you will have a super gaming experience
with csb. New monsters , new champions, new puzzles, new game!

I'm one of those people who was turned off by the purple worms. I didn't know what the hell I was supposed to do, and while I did figure it would become more forgiving if I found my way out, I didn't bother. One of these days I'll probably change my mind. Right now I just don't have the time to devote to CSB. But, I voted "yes much" because that's what everyone else says, plus I got my ass kicked by worms ten seconds in, which I personally feel is a fatal design flaw. But that's just me.

CSB is MUCH harder. It is total Chaos. DM was
predictable. You could start the game again and it
would look the same as the last time you played.
You could map it incrementally without any trouble.

CSB is frustratingly unpredictable. Play the game
twice and you find different things in different
places. Walk down the same hallway and you wind
up in totally different areas (all on unknown levels!!!).
Drawing a map requires long trial-and-error. Absolute
verification of relative levels of the dungeon depends
on very sparse information because of the (mostly
invisible and silent) teleporters into and out of the
Junction and across levels.

So learning the shape of the dungeon is very hard.
It was simple in DM.

Yet CSB can still be completed in a third the time DM can.

PaulH: Yes, but only if you know the game inside out. My very first CSB completion did not take less time than playing through DM.

PaulH wrote:Yet CSB can still be completed in a third the time DM can.

Can be, but most likely will not be unless you're a speed-record player.

I have to say that, although the difficulty is set much higher in CSB, the characters are set accordingly higher and this does balance it out. The main thing which makes CSb so much harder is its non-linerity and how easy it is to spend several hours wandering aimlessly and lost before being put out of your misery by apassing dragon (or maybe that's just me... ) The start is pretty tough if you've never played it before (Alonein the dark surrounded by yellow worms.... sounds a lot like the last office party I went to... ) esp if you forget about the worm generator pad in front of the iron gate, but even then, IMHO, as long as you are quick on your fingers, and remember to cast a couple of torch spells *before* running madly in circles.. . It''s the twisted logic and scurrying around in circles which makes it tougher.

still, I am currently in the midst of it and thoroughly enjoying hte challenge.
Bitza

I forgot to point you to:

http://www.dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin/Gam ... urnal.html

Fun reading.

Um... sounds like this it's game to challenge Dm winners. I have DM, i'ts a bit of too easy. And i have DMjava, it's too hard. Maybe this is touch but completable challege. it may be clad to get it sometimes.

@Duckman:
If you solved DM, DEFINITELY play CSB! It is very hard, but never unfair and provides a great challenge and a fantastic experience. The dungeon itself is crafted masterfully, way better than the original DM. I can't say if it is easier or harder than DMJava, though, since I never played that one.

I now have CSBwin, so i do not have to think anymore, but perhaps someone else wants to know too? Continue posting!

Personlly i found it a fair bit harder, but if ye know what to do and hav good champions from original then it's not too bad.

I found CSB much harder than the original DM. It's not easy even if you know where to go and what to do.

It's difficult not only in the puzzles and some fights (like the snakes section), but especially in the general navigation and orientation through the dungeon. If you play it without any maps or external help, it's extremely difficult only to understand the general layout of the dungeon (i.e. the Junction, the four ways, the DDD, etc.), and to navigate through it. There are so many teleports, shortcuts, secret ways and it's so non-linear, that when I played it for the first time, most of the time I spent wondering "where am I right now?".

The puzzles are very difficult too, but the Hints are well prepared. And there are some tough fights, but most of them can be done.

It took me a few months to finish DM - but it took me a year or so to finish CSB without any help. And as I wrote before, I'm very proud of it. CSB was one of the most difficult games I've ever finished (together with the Zork trilogy).

Im already having headaches about the DDD and I havent finished DM yet !!

Anyone who actually finishes CSB without
assistance deserves a great round of
applause. I doubted it was possible.

Paul Stevens wrote:Anyone who actually finishes CSB without
assistance deserves a great round of
applause. I doubted it was possible.

That makes me feel a bit better! It is much, much harder than DM. As everyone has said it is very confusing to know where you are. I never knew if I had messed up (because I could progress no further on a path) or if it was supposed to be that way. But also I remember food being at a real premium, and my champions being in the yellow for long periods of time. A lack of food means that a clock is ticking as soon as you start, albeit a slow one. (Maybe I am wrong on this one, and I missed some supplies. Or maybe killing worms will keep you stocked up, I don't know).

Anyway the more I read/remember/write about CSB the more excited I am getting about playing it again...

Hello everyone,

I just added one more "Yes and much!" to the poll. I played CSB only once many years ago without any help. I finished it but got stuck seriously several times. Pathfinding is the key!

Kind regards,

Andi

I like to think I completed it with no help, but I honestly can't remember!

I have a feeling we may have done (me and my dad), since there was, of course, no Internet back then, and we didn't have any kind of guide book. I can't think of any other way we might have got help, therefore, since none of us knew anyone else who played it (and apart from on here, I still don't, but I'm working on it ).

Hello Ameena,

Ameena wrote:... no Internet back then ...

was there a time before internet?!

Yes there was! Only 10 years ago most of us had no internet. Nor any idea about all the massive changes to which internet would lead. After that very short time with internet we are used to it. For most of us it´s an essential part of our lives.

Unbelievable how quick we took that absolutely new media for granted.

Sorry for "Off Topic"!

Kind regards,

Andi

Ameena wrote:I have a feeling we may have done (me and my dad), since there was, of course, no Internet back then, and we didn't have any kind of guide book. I can't think of any other way we might have got help, therefore, since none of us knew anyone else who played it (and apart from on here, I still don't, but I'm working on it ).

Well I dont know for non-French people but here in France we did have magazines where you could ask for help (Tilt comes to mind here ). The drawback being that you'd have to wait at least 2 months till you got your answer. I think that 2 or 3 months after DM was released in France, the Generation 4 magazine started publishing very detailed map for the game which were of a great help. They also did it for CSB a while later.

My dad did always get a magazine called erm..."ST Format", I think. I know it was an Atari magazine and it usually had a free demo disc that came with it (the things fill most of our four disc boxes ), but I never read it (except one that had the Monkey Island walkthrough which I'd use as a reference for the responses to the insults, mainly the Sword Master's ones, before I could remember them all). I don't think it ever had any kind of CSB guide though.

good old st format and amiga format...

Yes, ST format....I think I used read the reviews of games over and over again (in fact I remember the review of Monkey Island, I always wanted to play it but never had the money). But those magazines usually were not very helpful for games that I actually owned. They had a cheat for CSB, something like you find a dragon, type "Lord Libralusus smites thee down", then kill the dragon and you get the firestaff and are invincible. It did not work, although at least I got some dragon steaks. Actually I just googled it, that cheat is still out there on the internet. I am sure whoever made that up would be proud that it is still circulating 20 years later.

The cheat does actually work in *certain* versions of the game...