Dungeon Master Forum

something else ive just noticed....

on the RTC (orig DM) when you start and rencarnate a player (so that he/she has no skill levels), you can get screamer slices and stand infront of any door and throw the slices repeatedly and very very quickly you can get the champions ninja level to journeyman, just by throwing the screamer slices. (i know because i have jst done it). from neophyte to novice you can get the "****** has just gained a ninja level" on the screen twice before the 1st one disappears.

However, try to the same on ST DM infront of the same door, with the screamer slices. you can throw them until your blue in the face.... no ninja levels increase at all, not even to neophyte!

so not sure how or why, but there is a very significant difference.

It used to work

Ninja xp is gained with weight etc, but you should still gain levels from anything thrown...sounds like another bug has cropped into the engine somehow

That's what I thought, but the bug is the reverse of that (i.e. the original game on the ST doesn't give any ninja levels, rather than RTC doesn't)

Oh, misread again : (

Umm, it shoudl work, goodness knows what you are doing! It works for PC DM and I'm sure other games too..whooo knows

Are you in level 0? becuase you have the most severe penelty against your experience compared to other levels and also if there are no monsters close (ie you are just out of comabt) then again, you don't get a bonus

On the amiga version you get ninja xp from anything thrown IIRC.
I think RTC has got it about right.

Yep - I also think that RTC is doing it right. Adjusting ninja XP took quite a while of iterative feedback, and even if it may be not identical with some original versions, it's well balanced now.

I am standing in exactly the same place on both. on level 2 by the door with the green button on the wall and the floor pad.

Not saying you dont get ninja levels from throwing anything, just takes A LOT longer. I have eventually got a ninja level on ST DM.
as george put, it isnt a bug its just a difference. its so easily noticable as im playing them both side by side.

where did the "code" come from in RTC as re: to how many times you need to throw something or do something to gain a experience level?

rob3034 wrote:where did the "code" come from in RTC as re: to how many times you need to throw something or do something to gain a experience level?

I made it up!

It's not based on anything more scientific than my memory of roughly what I "felt like" being a reasonable model (which was then tweaked by lots of iterations of what everyone else thought).

I don't know that ST DM has a bug regarding to Ninja levels. I have played ST DM in last 16 years ago and gain Ninja level take much longer than all other skill level. I also think ST DM has another bug that weaken poison and lightning strength to half of supposed strength. I did not play PC DM but PC DM may be same as RTC and may not have these bugs.

I think George Gilbert properly balanced all skill levels and poison/lightning strength! He is amazing author and should don finest wizard robe! I wish I could play under easier difficulty setting!

george.

ok!!! thats fair enough!! everyone seems to be happy with the model you've used, i might physically count (sad i know) the number of throws using same characters in same position, with the same objects, and let you know..... merely out of curousity.

thanks for your 'personal' reply tho.

OK experiment complete!!! did both games (ST DM & RTC orig), with exactly the same characters, in exactly the same place, with exactly the same weapon (a club).

In both games the characters were re-encarnated so their skill levels were nothing.

results..... using the HALK character to do the throwing.

ST DM:
took 71 club throws to gain the 'neophyte' exp level.
took a further 72 throws to gain 'novice' level (143 total).
took a further 142 throws to gain 'apprentice' level (285 total).
took a further 287 throws to gain 'journeyman' level (572 total).

RTC (orig):
took 11 club throws to gain the 'neophyte' exp level.
took a further 10 throws to gain 'novice' level (21 total)
took a further 20 throws to gain 'apprentice' level (41 total).
took a further 41 throws to gain 'journeyman' level (82 total).

As you can see there is a huge difference, didnt carryon, think it would take a lot of throws on ST DM to get the next exp level!!!

The model George uses is the same (i think) in that Nothing to neophyte, and neophyte to novice is the same, novice to apprentice is double, then apprentice to journeyman is double again.

Just though you may want to know this? or maybe not?

rob

143+142=285
285+287=572

Hmmm - interesting.

RTC uses lots of different factors to determine the XP gain for a thrown item, including it's weight, how far it would have gone and whether it's a "throwable" item or not (i.e. a dart gives you more xp than a coin). Perhaps too much emphasis is given to these factors (all of which would benefit a club) - it would be interesting to know how the values change with different items (both from RTCs perspective, and to see if DM uses any such factors in it's model).

Check out the PC version too.... I reckon somethgns happened with the ST version making it harder, ebcause in the amiga and PC I don't remember it being that hard to throw items and gain levels

Infact the same holds true of the CSBwin dungeons, and they are based o nthe atari engine too...

yeah, it is interesting, i didnt try throwing other stuff, just the clubs. but like you say it wouldbe interesting to know the model used in the original ST version. dunno where you'd get it from... any ideas?

not that i would be able to understand it

is gaining exp somehow concerned with luck? I believe Halk`s stats are the same in RTC and CSBwin, but "luck" is a hidden stat, wchich doesn`t exist in RTC. Maybe it would be good to increase characters stats a bit, if has a high luck value in ST DM.

BTW it`s interesting that PC version is easier than ST in gaining exp; if game designers decided to change that would mean that ST version was unbalanced a bit in their opinion.

I prefer RTC's current way of handling ninja XP, not because of the faster levelup, but because throwing real missiles at real monsters should give more XP than hurling boulders at doors.

Adamo wrote:"luck" is a hidden stat, wchich doesn`t exist in RTC.

Yes it does!

Lunever wrote:I prefer RTC's current way of handling ninja XP, not because of the faster levelup, but because throwing real missiles at real monsters should give more XP than hurling boulders at doors.

Yep - I forgot to add that to the list of influences over xp; if a thrown item hits a monster, you get more. Same applies to spells too...

ooops, sorry then ! I didn`t know about that

If it is easy to go up enough in the ninja level, EX that increases when shot item strikes the monster might be unnecessary.
It had not to have been before.
The ninja level goes up when the arrow shot by magic now strikes the monster because it is.
If it is lost, this unnatural phenomenon can be solved.

I wrote here.
http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=25910

My questions on xp are:
Does the amount of damage inflicted matter, or just the fact that a "hit" occurs? I'm never sure if I should use many quick Jabs or the slow, powerful Melee attack, when training characters.

Also, does a "miss" affect xp? Is there a penalty or subtraction?

Thanks,

R³

The XP gained for a given attack depends on lots of different factors; the theoretical damage done (i.e. before accounting for the armour levels of the thing your attacking) is one of them.

There are no negative penalties for XP (apart from the very specific XP drain attack that you can assign to weapons / monsters / triggers etc).

However, it is true that a miss will gain you less XP than a hit (which is how it should be, I think).

So, then a high damage attack with a large hit probability (like, Melee), may gain XP more quickly than a low damage attack which misses a lot. Bet if I run the numbers, it'll all balance out pretty evenly, tho.

BTW, I did not know that XP was gained when an attack missed its target. I wrongly assumed this from my inability to level up by training on doors & trees...

R³

Due to the much lower XP from missing your target,. and not attacking a monster at all, it would be noticeably slower than constant combat

Note you also get fighter XP for damage you take...usually in comba, but falling down a pit it isn't unknown to see a level gain in your weaker members in higher levles...

Oh definitely, I've used the "repeatedly running into walls" technique to build up a couple of low-level characters' fighter skills.

It's very simple to do--nearly hands-free, in fact! Of course, it's not-so great towards your final score.

R³

Fixed the XP gain for throwing heavy items for V0.44