Bioshock - borrows a little from DM and to make DM clone

bone · Post by **bone** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:15 am

Been playing Bioshock (the new game by 2k games) and there are areas in the game that remind me of the Dungeon Master series. Especially how the vertically scrolling doors work but also the often squared-off level design. It's been a long time since I've had a DM feeling in a commercial game.

2kgames may release editing tools for the game and if that happens I would love to help make a D.M. like RPG using the Bioshock engine. I suggest you guys consider it! There are some things that the engine adds that I think the DM clones could use, too. They are:

* Very nice water, fog and fire effects!
* A more complicated & perhaps more sophisticated powerup & in-game abilities modding system
* 5.1 surround sound
* A system to deliver story/plot as audio clips
* State-of-the-art graphics
* Telekinesis and other very cool magic abilities
* Bots & driods (DM2 had some of these IIRC)
* A more advanced AI
* Transparencies (like for doors and windows)

A special note about the in-game abilities system. You have slots for abilities but have only so many that you can have active at one time. Also these abilities are accrued during the game by finding objects. One example is that there is a double search box/body/crate feature that I think would work well in a DM clone. The second search has a chance of finding extra stuff (play it and see, its cool)

Since Bioshock uses the Unreal3 engine, the U3 engine might be a better base engine to use but the Bioshock engine looks to have some wonderfully nice custom features already in there.

I've not been following the forums here much and not been playing DM but playing Bioshock got me re-inspired about making (and playing!) a compelling DM clone based on a modern engine.

I'm very tired now so good night guys. Sorry if this post doesn't make sense, has errors, etc.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:09 am

No, always nice to see modern games being influence by a loved childhood game!

Tom Hatfield · Post by **Tom Hatfield** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm

Bioshock is an updated version of System Shock 2; the two games are nearly identical except in presentation (even the story is very similar). So, if anything was influenced by DM, it was SS2.

I was just thinking about this last night, and I would love to see modding tools for Bioshock. Some fairly amazing things could be done with the game; as it uses the Unreal 3 engine. I for one would like to build some co-op levels, assuming all the network code was left in the game and simply hidden from the user. Otherwise, a modern trip to Rapture, with modernized items and plasmid upgrades, could be in order.

I did finish the game, by the way, and got what I'd consider a "good" ending by saving all the little sisters. It was very touching, something like Princess Maker. I'm going for the "bad" ending now. Gah! Every time the guy picks up a little sister, I have an image of him punching her in the face repeatedly! Not that I'm sick or anything, but . . . I mean, wouldn't you?

bone · Post by **bone** » Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:48 pm

Thanks Tom & beowuuf.

For those of you who might want to see what I'm talking about.. The free Bioshock demo doesn't show the Dungeon Master influences very much at all. It's only once you enter the fisherman's wharf and also the the tree level (Arcadia?) that the DM similariites start to show.

My idea is to create a very DM-like game using the Bioshock engine, but not to recreate a modern Rapture (the city of Bioshock). I'm sure if the tools are released we'll see a modern city remake though.

Tom do you remember the part where you get the telekinesis powers? There is a tenis ball shooter. There is a transparent door there. This door reminded me very much of how the doors in Dungeon Master work. What a beautiful door, too. It is glass but has the shiny gold detail on it. This, I think, is very much the kind of beautiful work that DM tried (in its day) to do. Of course there are a lot of doors in the game that work like the DM doors, too. It's not just the doors. The similarities are for me also about the more interactive world. Bioshock does it in a different way though.

I'm not done with the game and didn't want to hear about the ending, but thanks anyway. It's only been out a week or so.

Quake 2 also had a small area in one of the levels that was very much like Dungeon Master. It was well done, too. No puzzles in it though. I just didn't have the time to pursue a DM-like game in Q2 back then. Now I do.

bone

mikko · Post by **mikko** » Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:14 am

Well, I guess that one can see similarities in almost every game if little details are considered. Personally I don't see Bioshock being influenced by DM. At least directly..

Like Tom said, it's heavily influenced by System Shock 2. I'd say it's a simplified System Shock 2 with pretty graphics. Why simplified (or even dumbed down)? It's much more like a traditional FPS. Where did e.g. the inventory go? Now I have to eat the chips from the floor.. At least before I could pick them up and enjoy later.. Besides, I love micro managing my inventory.

But then again, System Shock 2 is a sequel to the original System Shock that I still consider one of the best games ever. And SS1 used an improved version of the engine in the revolutionary Ultima Underworld games. I'd say that Underworld was very much influenced by DM and other similar games although it's technologically very different.

So if the ancestors of Bioshock have DM influences then one probably can say that in some way Bioshock also has them. But I could then make a bold statement that every single game ever made was influenced by Pong!

Tom Hatfield · Post by **Tom Hatfield** » Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:46 pm

Heh. This alludes to the Dungeon Shock title thread. No progress, btw, but if a Bioshock MDK is released . . . hmm.

bone · Post by **bone** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 12:15 am

Yes thanks. Yes when/if the MDK is released, I intend to make a DM level or two. I think the engine is fantastic for this kind of game. I don't know much coding though (been 17 years since I did 68k asm) but maybe some of the DM stuff can be put in there like the movement style, etc. 'Levels first' is my mantra. I'll post some screen shots or levels here.

Until then, we have the Now.

Suule · Post by **Suule** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:51 pm

Well to straighten some facts out: Bioshock is made by the same people as System Shock, but when Looking glass went POOF! EA aquired System Shock name, so the original creators couldn't do anything with it.

The simplification irritates me a lot. It feels as if the game was dumbed down for Eksbwaks gamers. No more inventory management... that's sad. I remember SS had a really great replay value just because you could stuff everything into your backpack.

Otherwise the game is marvelous! The ideas and the presentation is simply stunning! I'm still waiting for my ENG version to arrive (I had to import it since I hate playing localized games).

bone · Post by **bone** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:04 pm

Yeah Suule!

Also the ice level is really cool. DM never did ice like that but I think it is perfect for a DM-like game. Also the bump mapping makes for great looking rocks. Lots of rocks in DM!

In one spot there is what I think is a small homage paid to DM. There is a flame coming out of a pit. It is under a stairway, I think in the research labs area. Didn't get a screen shot though.

mikko · Post by **mikko** » Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:37 pm

Suule wrote:Well to straighten some facts out: Bioshock is made by the same people as System Shock, but when Looking glass went POOF! EA aquired System Shock name, so the original creators couldn't do anything with it.

Actually it's made by the same people as System Shock 2 i.e. ex Irrational Games (now 2K Boston/2K Australia). Although Irrational was founded by a couple of former Looking Glass employees the companies have little to do with each other. Looking Glass was still around for a few years after that and only assisted in SS2 developement. In fact the lead designer of SS2 (and if I'm not mistaken Bioshock too) Ken Levine didn't even work at Looking Glass Studios when SS1 was released.

I think that EA already owned the System Shock brand when Looking Glass went POOF, since the original System Shock was published by Origin and EA and System Shock 2 by EA alone.

Yes, Irrational probably wanted to make SS3, but I'm guessing that EA said no and they had to change the name and concept (and probably find another publisher). And on top of that they were bought by Take-Two and 2K Games..

Tom Hatfield · Post by **Tom Hatfield** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:14 am

You must be talking bout the heat monitoring station in Haphaestus — here.

bone · Post by **bone** » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:46 am

Yes Tom that's the one!! Thanks! /crossing fingers for the MDK!

Tom Hatfield · Post by **Tom Hatfield** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:01 pm

The developers decided not to release an MDK becauise they're arrogant and don't want anyone messing with their game. I guess they can kiss longevity and future sales goodbye. Still, I have played through the entire game like four times. I just wish so much I could use more than the wrench, considering how many melee weapons the splicers have. I've lost a lot of respect for [Looking Glass] for this idiotic decision.

bone · Post by **bone** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:13 pm

Tom Hatfield wrote:The developers decided not to release an MDK becauise they're arrogant and don't want anyone messing with their game. I guess they can kiss longevity and future sales goodbye. Still, I have played through the entire game like four times. I just wish so much I could use more than the wrench, considering how many melee weapons the splicers have. I've lost a lot of respect for [Looking Glass] for this idiotic decision.

Yes.. Well I bought the collector's edition of UT3 in hopes of making a Dungeon Master type of game. Its a lot for one person though. I made a test level months ago. I found that a grid spacing of 192 is just about perfect. The UT3 level editor is great. There is a guy who calls himself 'cannedmushrooms' who makes great tutorial videos on things like the UE3 editor and also Maya and other tools.

All the ingredients are there to make a great modern Dungeon Master remake but I can't do it alone. I have a vision but not the skills to do it. I could learn as I go... Or I can do other stuff!

Its the animations that I find challenging. Also have you seen Gears of War where the monsters climb out of the hole? That'd be really cool for Dungeon Master. Also I have an idea of mummies breaking down stone walls to attack the player. Its all about presentation.

Have you seen the game Devil May Cry 4? There are some great ideas in that game and graphics that I'd imagine a modern Dungeon Master game would use. I'll make another post..

mikko · Post by **mikko** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 10:59 am

Tom Hatfield wrote:I've lost a lot of respect for [Looking Glass] for this idiotic decision.

Why have you lost respect for a company that went out of business years ago and had nothing to do with the game?

Tom Hatfield · Post by **Tom Hatfield** » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:55 pm

Notice the brackets. It was euphemistic.