Dungeon Master Forum

I mentioned in my Bloodbane Rising thread that I don't really have any time to work on it in the foreseeable future. But that doesn't stop me thinking about ideas...

I'll be reducing the game down into one playable RTC file now, so not the big six episode thing I originally envisioned. But to do this, I need to scale back some of the travelling aspects.

So what are the best ways of dealing with long distance travelling in RTC? Should I build really huge outdoor areas that take billions of clicks to traverse, or should it be done with 'cutscenes' and asking the player for directions, a bit like a gamebook ("You reach a fork in the path. Go east or west?").

I quite like the idea of big areas that you can play normally, but they take ages to build and you'd have to put in lots of stuff to give encounters to the player and not make it boring.

On the other hand, gamebook style choices remove you from the immersion of gameplay, although RTC does allow some atmosphere here -- you could add some animation and music to each cutscene. Might be quite nice. Easier and quicker to build too if you can source good 'scenery' images (plenty of stuff out in the public domain for this sort of thing.)

So, what's your preference?

The story cutscenes is a unique style of gameplay indeed. So I'm going to go with cutscenes because it will be something diffrent + I'm positive you will make it look good and the transitions feel natural.

I'm rather indifferent here.
Cutscenes can provide nice atmosphere and are less annoying in the long term, but you lose the feeling of the game being "all one". Instead, the game is divided into several parts. This can actually be a good thing, as it adds structure and makes it easier to find your way around.
If there is a lot of travelling needed, maybe you can add some elements that makes travelling obsolete eventually. For example, my dungeon contains an open world with long ways in it, but you can eventually reach teleporters to hop around to some key places, kind of like the Waypoints in Diablo.

I know back when I was planning my monster RTC dungeon, you would explore the huge scenes and walk through them, then it would create a shortcut teleporter where when you make to go back it simply goes '...a short while later...' in text at the bottom and you would have leapt

Maybe an animated screne fading from one to the other - eg if you can see a forest in the distance, and move on the path to the forest, then you get a jump where the view fades to the new view of standing by the forest entrance?

Cut scenes, with a 'time lapse' involved, so you can add some 'smacking good' music for the players' delight.

I'm not kidding, yet I don't know the copyright limitations.

Gambit37 wrote:Should I build really huge outdoor areas that take billions of clicks to traverse, or should it be done with 'cutscenes' and asking the player for directions, a bit like a gamebook ("You reach a fork in the path. Go east or west?").

The way you asked the question is kind of loaded, but, if you're going to ask it that way, then of course I'd say I think I would like the "gamebook" style encounters much more.

Two alternatives would be:

Play with the "scale," a bit, that is, when you're running around outside, assume that each square of movement is actually much greater than when you're inside of the dungeon. How to handle other DM style interactions in this mode is something I don't know.

Have a sort of "map screen" where you can click on locations, and maybe show an animated image representing travelling to them. I'm not sure how sophisticated RTC's cut scenes are, so I'm not sure how much of this is possible, but I'm speaking conceptually.

Just one thing to add: If there are cutscenes, please don't make a delay before you can choose your way mandatory. This might work the first time you encounter the cutscene, but every time after that it's just plain annoying if you can't continue. Anyone who ever played older Final Fantasy games with their Aeon/Esper/Summon animations knows what I'm talking about.

I don't really want to use teleporters, it seems more contrived than I'd like.

I'm thinking more like lands of Lore, rather than actual scenes, but a few of those style screens strung together.

For example, say you are in a DM style city (normal step gameplay) and get to the city gates. Once you reach the gate, you pass through and a fullscreen image comes up of the view from the city, maybe with some overlaid text. An on screen compass or control shows the directions available and you can use those controls to move either to another 'scene' or some regular DM style gameplay, depending on the course of action.

So it could mean you have a few of these scenes in a row if they are all part of a longer travelling sequence (with no DM style gameplay in between).

Would that simply be too annoying/jarring?

Trantor wrote:Just one thing to add: If there are cutscenes, please don't make a delay before you can choose your way mandatory.

Goodness no, of course not, no delays! That would suck.

Sophia wrote:Play with the "scale," a bit, that is, when you're running around outside, assume that each square of movement is actually much greater than when you're inside of the dungeon. How to handle other DM style interactions in this mode is something I don't know.

I just don't think that would work at all.

Sophia wrote:Have a sort of "map screen" where you can click on locations, and maybe show an animated image representing travelling to them. I'm not sure how sophisticated RTC's cut scenes are, so I'm not sure how much of this is possible, but I'm speaking conceptually.

That's not a bad idea, but RTC is very limited. Basically, imagine a static screen with up to eight hotspots and that's it.

I'll do a demo later to show you what I mean.

Several cutscenes in a row might seem a bit weird, I'd rather have some sort of map feature like Sophia suggested. But annoying? No, I would be fine with that. But as I said, I'm rather indifferent to this topic anyway.

Gambit37 wrote:

Sophia wrote:Play with the "scale," a bit, that is, when you're running around outside, assume that each square of movement is actually much greater than when you're inside of the dungeon. How to handle other DM style interactions in this mode is something I don't know.

I just don't think that would work at all.

I actually think this is a rather elegant and useful way to do it. And it's pure coincidence that my dungeon does that a bit.

I don't see how you can make that convincing, because the viewport is designed to match the character's eye level, and as such each square looks approximately like a 10 foot square box. How do you make each step represent something bigger than that? Visually, it just doesn't work.

You are right, it doesn't make sense visually. But I think it is perfectly acceptable to have a city the same size as a small dungeon level, and having no more than, say, 40 or 50 squares between two cities. That certainly doesn't make sense at all, but I think this is one of the places where convenience may trump realism.

I'm thinking something like this. You've just come from regular gameplay style encounter, and are now travelling North. Hitting a trigger tile shows the 'cutscene':



The 'cutscene' gives you a direction option and some info. There are hot spots on the directions that take you either to other cutscenes or maybe DM style gameplay. Exrta hidden hotspots allow further interaction (eg, click the doorway to enter the house -- this then puts you in DM style gameplay of the inside of the house).

Say you click 'East' on the previous screen without entering the house. You now see:



There are fewer exits here. Can't go further east. Going west takes you back to the house. Going North goes to the forest. South is some random encounter and further optional paths. Lets go North to the forest:



So we're at the forest and about to be attacked. Only two options, stay and fight or run to the forest. If you run into the forest, this could take you to DM style gameplay of the forest -- which would be a few full levels of DM style gameplay advancing the story. If you stay and fight, you're put in DM style gameplay of the open area. You'd be forced to fight the nasty monster. On death, new options are available.

OK, this is very rough but you get the idea.

So what are the best ways of dealing with long distance travelling in RTC? Should I build really huge outdoor areas that take billions of clicks to traverse, or should it be done with 'cutscenes' and asking the player for directions, a bit like a gamebook ("You reach a fork in the path. Go east or west?").

My heart is all for the huge outdoors!!! BUT! it would require a lot of work from you, so my mind says the cutscenes were much better!

That looks good and unique, I think you should go with that

The Idea of the cut scenes and DM stile gameplay mixed together sounds really cool, Ill go for the "Travel" adventure: walk in nice areas with descriptions (cutscenes), maybe enter in a house and pick some object (DM stile), walk again (cutscenes) and finally reach the lost Dungeon were my final goal its (DM stile), I cannot wait! just choose a bigger font with a stroke so it wont confuse with the background and rlease it inmediatly!!!! =)

Gambit37 wrote:I don't see how you can make that convincing, because the viewport is designed to match the character's eye level, and as such each square looks approximately like a 10 foot square box. How do you make each step represent something bigger than that? Visually, it just doesn't work.

Well, I was thinking Trantor's way-- don't worry about it a whole lot. However, if you want to keep the scale "accurate," one option, albeit one that is a lot of work in RTC, is to link up a series of rooms with teleporters that only looks like a large open space. This is different from the previous suggestion because the teleporters are invisible as opposed to an overt part of the game mechanics.

That is, when you take one step forward, you're actually stepping onto a teleporter which teleports you a good distance ahead, or to an entirely different "encounter area." It might be a bit visually jarring to be moving around and having the scenery changing radically, but you at least keep a sense of scale.

Again, I'm not sure how this will work with normal DM style interactions, but it at least solves the "scale" issue.

OK, I see what you mean. That really doesn't work for me though. We're so entrenched in DM step-gameplay I really think that's just going to confuse and disorient people.

I like your concept Gambit. From my first look, it reminds me a bit of the old text-adventures by Infocom and the like. It certainly is a departure from classic DM and gives the game a different kind of structure, which is fine in my book.

Here's a more 'polished' version of what I'm talking about:

thats pretty sweet looking, keep it up!

I wonder if no text at all would be better? It would make things more mysterious for the player, though I quite like the idea of scene-seting text. Hmmm..

The lack of text definitely has a more "DM" feel.

In fact, you could even get rid of the compass directions and replace it with DM movement arrows (probably without the turning ones)

You're suggesting getitng rid of something I just spent the last hour drawing? Don't think so!

Nah, I want a completely different interface for these parts of the game, hence the compass -- directions not available will be greyed out (ie, I'll have to force some linearity on the player -- can't create a completely open ended adventure this way!)

So, it's not really a compass at all... but it works for me as a device and I doubt anyone will have trouble with it.

I forgot to mention that in these sequences there would be ambient sounds or music playing too...

Oh, hang on, I see what you mean -- yes, the NSEW is confusing, arrows on their own would make more sense. Doh!

the NSEW is confusing,

Unless you can rotate the compass as the
player turns.

Nope, that's exactly the problem. Scenes would reflect the direction the player can travel, and Forwards isn't necessarily North, so Sophia is right.

I suppose I could rotate the graphic on each scene on a case by case basis, when the image is saved from Photoshop (once I know what direction each scene maps to in accordance with my master map), but it's a lot of hassle.... I think simpler is better, though it does mean it'll be harder for players to map these routes.

Hmm....

Is there any possibility of drawing the background, and then "overlaying" the compass, or does RTC not allow that?

Yes, I can overlay the compass. You can overlay up to 4 images over any background, as well as up to 7 buttons -- so in theory up to 11 images can be overlaid if you don't attach any events to the buttons.

With the latest revision to remove the cardinal directions, I saw the compass as being an integral part of the image, but with the arrows greyed out. Then the overlaid buttons would be 'enabled' versions of the arrows, so I'd just enable whichever directions I need for that particular scene. Plus non-obvious interaction can be added to the scene which isn't explicit to the user -- so thinking "What if I click on this tree?" and clicking on it might present a new scene. Sort of a point-and click adventure, but very simplified -- really just used to join different parts of DM style regular gameplay.

Of course, I could have four different compasses with the directions rotated, but then to do the greying out of directions that aren't available, I need four times the amount of images!

Also, for NPC stuff, I'll be adding other options, something like this (obviously, you can still use the arrows to bypass the incident if you so wish).