Dungeon Master Forum

Bad spell or worst spell? Expensive to cast, hard to cast at maximum power, seems to hit only one creature in a group...

I don't think I ever used in any of my run throughs in DM or CSB. Not even for training. Mana cost was too high, and it did not look like it was giving the same damage as FUL IR (visually I mean, the fireballs look more impressive).

Same here. A strong FUL IR solves it all, this is what I say!

In my opinion fireball wasn`t well balanced; it costs too less comparing to the results..

it sucks. (mana)
maybe a bug in the code, like anti fire stat, who knows. Normally it probably should deal some xtra damage, body part damage and such, therefore scaring the monster or crippling it in some way..
that the monster has an increased chance of getting startled, but I guess it does not work .
again, oh kath ra really sucks
apart from that , it gives different hidden skill experience. But that experience is in the end negligible ...

nevertheless, cool thing that there is something like a lightning bolt. So you can change your offensive magic spells

I could imagine it has some use if you wanted to train fighter levels and hit the monsters with magic, but not kill them off fast or completely?

@ Adamo

this should be discussed in another thread, maybe:
do you think Fireball is too powerful compared to the other spells or melee weapons.
If the latter(compared to melee weapons) I would say that punch is probalby even less balanced.
what are your thoughts?

Back in 2003 I made some tests of how much damage is done against creatures with different spells. This was in DM for PC. I gave the results to GG and I think he used some of the info to help with the algorithms in RTC.

http://www.friskdesign.com/misc/DM_damage.xls

Basic conclusion is that Lightning is more effective than fireballs against Screamers and Animated Armours, but not much else.

nice chart Gambit. You did quite some work there for RTC..
Interesting facts with screamers and Knights!
(rings a bell of your dm codex, where you had this lightning bolt resistance stat for the finished screamer monster template -site)
just a side note:
Isn´t it so that materializers get hit by fireballs if you hit them while they stand against a wall ?(wall get hit and damages square the materializer is on). I read something about that, I think.

Yes, OH KATH RA really does suck. Knights are better fought with cold steel anyway, so it really doesn't matter that they take more damage from Lightning Bolt than from Fireball. FUL IR was just way overpowered...

Actually, the fireball was nerfed against several opponents in the later game, it was just that lightning bolt didn't become a viable alternative. Poison cloud was great as an alternative in certain situations. Poison bolt never really pulled its weight except against gigglers, and as a grating bypass either.

Check the XLS I posted: Poison Bolt is still reasonably effective against Screamers, Trolin and Vexirk too. Still nowhere near the overpowered fireballs though

poison cloud was good against the ogres on level 3, they seemed to die almost instantly from it.

By the way, in RTC, poison bolt is massively over-effective on rock piles. Easy to kill them with even low powered bolts.

Being effective at all is massively over-effective. In vanilla DM it does 0 damage.

I often use DES VEN against Vexirks, it works really well. In RTC, DES VEN is not only overpowered against Rock Piles, but basically against every monster (or player...). OH VEN is surprisingly good against Dragons if you have a Magic Box or two ready.

I wish Lightning Bolt in RTC wasn't quite so effective against players - Beholders have rather become the bane of my life whenever I re-run through that dungeon .

Sophia wrote:Being effective at all is massively over-effective. In vanilla DM it does 0 damage.

Are you sure? My tests in the spreasdsheet posted above prove otherwise, although these are with MON level spells. Perhaps lower level spells do no damage?

Actually, Ameena's post reminded me, those beholder lightning bolts tend to cause wounds quite a lot. Perhaps that's relevent?

Remember spells do physical damage. Archmaster MON level fireballs can kill knights, eventually, simple because they do single digit health in damage as a physicl trauma. Or, perhaps more likely there is a rounding error in the fire /spell resistance

I believe RTC lightning bolts are a little bit broken - Beholders can kill a party far too easily. NOt sure if its the spell power, or the spell though.

If you hit yourself with an OH KATH RA it produces more wounds than FUL IR .
(since monsters cannot get crippled that is hardly a reason to use lightning bolts ;
but I have the feeling they have different modes and behave accordingly. e.g. low on health makes monsters much less bold)

Maybe it would be better to have more spells that are good in different situations.

as it is now, fireballs are all rounders,
lightning bolts suck.
Poison bolts are more for traps against the party than useful as spells against creatures(since no poisoning occurs),
but the Vexirks since they move round a lot could be good targets for the spell
Des Ven is slightly overpowered or can be mis-used (-->all creatures run) but that is probably ok.

I really think you should look at all this division from different angles
(i.e. levels of the party: low midgame endgame; what alternatives (weapons) are readily available _ what enemies/resources on the levels)
lightning bolts just don´t cut it, they are simply too expensive.

I noticed that in CSB lightning bolts can be useful againgst knights and golems, but not in DM. I came across this while being trapped by a golem. I emptied a storm ring on the creature and the bolts killed it...

They're as effective in both, just the DM ones perhaps had more health when you encountered them

anyway nice find, Leslie