Dungeon Master Forum

Ok, this is weird. My posts are disappearing so if I post twice, sorry.

Oops, I didnt mean in black marsh, I meant by it. I think the town is Leyawiin(sp).

@Sphenx - Yeah. I never noticed that one, but Ive heard others including the female argonian repeating herself, and the one where a male says something about the captain of the guard and he stops midsentance and restarts. If you look on youtube theres a LOT of glitches/voice errors/bugs. Kinda why earlier I said its a good game, but not a great one. Or maybe i should say great, but not OMFGROX awesome. I know its huge and all, but Mass Effect and Dragon age(especially DA) were both huge and they didnt have THAT many glitches. Dont get me wrong, I love the ES series(dont get me started on the reskinned travesty they called Fallout tho, BLACK ISLE FOREVER!), I just think Bethesda throws them out without enough QA. Daggerfall was so buggy when it first came out it was nearly unplayable, and a lot of features didnt work (as Joramun points out).

And I agree, it would be very simple to use a synthesizer to make it sound like many people were talking. Or do what Morrowind did and have text. Oh, I forgot. Modern kids dont read. Personally I liked in morrowind that the random NPCs had a lot of things to talk about because it wasnt all voiced. I get really sick of hearing the same 5 comments over and over. But hell, ive just been spending the past few hours playing an old game I loved as a kid with no sound and mouse and simple graphics where it has AMAZING text descriptions that make you feel like youre really there. So perhaps I'm in a minority (or perhaps people like us on this board have imagination) I dunno.

raixel wrote:I just think Bethesda throws them out without enough QA. Daggerfall was so buggy when it first came out it was nearly unplayable, and a lot of features didnt work (as Joramun points out).

Daggerfall ... random crashing, levitating horses, moving outside walls of the dungeon, infinite mana ... lots of fun!

Hell yeah real fun what silly stuff you can find what gets created.
The stop song remembers me veeery faintly of monty python

I´d love to actually have an option to play this slapstick "Stop"-song in game, when getting caught. (maybe shorter)
would be super anti- immersive but quite funny!
Why not have the guards dance around and stuff?
Then the player could go to jail or say: "yeah, whatever" and simply go away from the crazy guards who would keep on dancing...

ok ok, would be too much, really..

I bet skyrim will bring us such fun stuff , too! hopefully
(The only survivor....is stupid as hell.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmerVWaT ... re=related

Right, I've never played any Elder Scrolls games, not even Oblivion -- but I'm seriously interested in Skyrim.

Will I be at a disadvantage for not knowing any of the legacy?

Probably not. The main idea of each ES episode is that you start as a "newborn". I played Oblivion without knowing anything about Morrowind and previous episodes. Tutorial level will probably be very well balanced and you'll get enough essentials to be able to survive !
Anyway, if you're interested in background, try http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Main_Page

Ahh the UESP Wiki - Fantastic site, that. All the info you'll need on any aspect of any of the games . I started with Morrowind and as I think I've mentioned before, I prefer it to the later Oblivion even though the latter seems to be the only one anyone's heard of these days. Hmm, maybe that's why .
I saw another trailer for Skyrim the other day which featured real footage (I mean, real people, not CGI) of villagers freaking out and running away from Something Scary. And then there's this bloke in the horny helmet (which obscures his face) standing in the middle of it all, who then slowly draws a sword and turns round just as a bloody great dragon (this part is CGI obviously ) lands in front of him and roars loudly.
I hope there is still a reasonable selection of races and stuff even though all these trailers show it as a (Nord?) human-looking bloke in a horny helmet and stuff. So far I've always played as a Khajiit .

Here's the live-action trailer Ameena mentioned:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/skyrim/medi ... ommercial/
And of course that's a real dragon!

It's out now! Most of the reviews have given it 9 out of 10 or in some caes 10 out of 10.

I'm certainly going to get it and play it at some point. However, I'm now wondering if I should try Oblivion first? I know it's a much older game, but it still looks interesting, and I'd be able to play it with fresh eyes if I don't play Skyrim first. But if I play Skyrim first, I doubt I'd want to go back to Oblivion. (Despite a love of retro games, I find it hard to appreciate older 3D visuals than the current cutting edge.)

In that case, perhaps try Morrowind first instead? Oblivion's a bit of a case of graphics over gameplay, in my opinion, though I still had fun playing it. I might get Skyrim at some point (might put it on my BDay/Christmas wishlist for next month) but right now I'm still obsessed with Minecraft so it'll be a while yet before I'm looking to play anything else .

Saw it in action today, I way really impressed! This is a must buy game
Sometimes I wounder if it is posible to extend the day to 48 hours instead of 24.
So much to do, so little time..

@gambit : without mods, Oblivion and Morrowind look outdated and Morrowind character design is really ugly. if you have enough time to spend on enchance graphics mods, then go on..

I think I may wait a few months for the PC version of Skyrim to be "finished":
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchw ... C_Game.php

i am not surprised.. as always with Bethesda

As a kid a friend and I designed (on paper!) what our ultimate game would be - it was the Amiga game Moonstone, but with more freedom and more RP elements. The more reviews I read of Skyrim (with the exception of the one Gambit posted) the more it looks as though this is what we were waiting for.

At least in theory, if it is a dodgy console port it will be annoying. And I have never played any Elder Scrolls, so I cannot really comment on the gameplay. But it is on my list to get - if anyone plays it be sure to post a review!

OK...I will preface this by saying I have NEVER played an Elder Scrolls game before. In fact the only game from Bethesda I have played is Fallout 3. Furthermore, this is the first RPG from a Western developer I have played since....well, Dungeon Master.

Now, call me bias or call me having a bad case of placebo, but I'll be DAMNED if Skyrim doesn't make me feel like I'm playing what a "Next-Gen" Dungeon Master game would be! It's really REALLY giving me DM vibes, and I'm absolutely LOVING IT!!! Sure there are aspects of Skyrim that are totally different to DM...open world, much better graphics, etc, but there are certain elements of Skyrim that share similarities, PARTICULARLY in the dungeon exploration department. The dungeon exploration, to me at least, screams DM! It's the kind of tight corridor navigating that I've always wanted in a next gen game. The graphics in some of the dungeons in skyrim have that grey-ish tone, with torches on the walls and old bones laying on the ground....but only with up to date graphics, and it's awesome. The enemies too are similar...I've been attacked by skeletons equipped with sword and shield, skorpions(yes, SKORPIONS!) mages in robes, and lots of other similar enemies. Only thing I haven't seen yet is a mummy...but I wouldn't be surprised if there in here too lol.

Everytime I fire up Skyrim I get chills down my spine. I feel like I'm back in 1988. Bethesda has blessed us DM fans with a game that they somehow knew we'd love. I can't help but think many members of Bethesda are DM fans, and got quite a few of their ideas from the Godfather of first person corridor RPGs. DM is the one that started it all, and its influence on next gen RPG developers is apparent.

This to me...feels like DM III. A game that I think would be almost exactly like what FTL would have done, had they made an updated Dungeon Master in 2011. What do you think of this? Am I crazy or is there some validity to my assumptions?

Gambit37 wrote:I think I may wait a few months for the PC version of Skyrim to be "finished":
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/EricSchw ... C_Game.php

I think it is not the problem this time.

Skyrim. Installed with Steam ( ).
The UI doesn't match the Elder Scroll's usual theme. Looks like you're playing a console game ported to PC
Other than that, I like the way you begin the adventure ! then it looks like enhanced Oblivion (which is a good thing anyway) and it's ... Elder Scroll ! so fun to play and wander around !

isamuu wrote: This to me...feels like DM III. A game that I think would be almost exactly like what FTL would have done, had they made an updated Dungeon Master in 2011. What do you think of this? Am I crazy or is there some validity to my assumptions?

You have some parts of answer in this:

isamuu wrote:OK...I will preface this by saying I have NEVER played an Elder Scrolls game before

I mean the base gameplay concepts of DM and Elder Scrolls are very different. Since Elder Scrolls 1 Arena (released in 1994, 3D free movement), player is able to wander in an open world, visit cities, search dungeons for treasures, with bunch of random and generated stuff ... The later versions of Elder Scrolls expanded and improved the system.
While in DM, you navigate through quite restricted areas with plenty of puzzles and traps to solve in order to progress. DM2 (released in 1993/1995, 2D tile based) offer some outdoor areas, but quite limited though. And you can control a party of characters in DM, that you cannot in ES.

I think the most evolved form of DM-like game is Lands of Lore, with a story interaction, cut scenes, dialogues, changes in party, but gameplay was simplified compared to DM ...

I can't really think what could be a new DM installment with modern and current standards for gameplay and graphics. Maybe it wouldn't be DM anymore ?
(we are 18 years after DM2!)

I might say Elder Scrolls is inspired by Ultima Underworld, which is inspired by Dungeon Master. Here are some connections. So well, Skyrim is like a DM .. IX ?

Is that helped?

Very interesting points you brought up there sphenx. You are right, lots of things are different, but I still feel the dungeon exploration of Skyrim has a DM vibe to it, and there are similarities in quite a few dungeons you enter. I'm loving Skyrim to bits!

So, I've played morrowind, oblivion, and now skyrim. I must say that Skyrim is the (as expected) best of the bunch. They've really taken things to a more natural level. Lock picking feels more intuitive and more like the real action than in oblivion, and the two handed combat is long over due, they lost the haggling element though which i found dissapointing, but I'm ok with it. There are other elements though that make it feel like I'm still playing oblivion.. the lack of real acting or animation for the characters... which I could forgive if not spoiled by games like assassins creed, or uncharted. I know it's just lazyness of the animators or programmers since the mods often have an upgraded element for animaitons as I've seen in oblivion mods.

One thing I really love though, is their addition of puzzle elements to the dungeons. It's been a long missing element but I'm not sure they've made a strong enough effort as a few dungeons felt as though they thought about doing it.. but gave up..

All in all, if you compare to a lot of other games out there, with months of potential game time, it's worth the full price.. and for me, well i had to get the collectors.. they huge dragon statue, the art book, the making of bluray. Just had to be done

as you've probably seen on FB, i've been offered the collector edition too : packaging is really huge ! it contains a beautiful grimoire with all concept art, a big spiky dragon figurine with a stone pedestal and the game DVDs. haven't installed the game yet

i finally started playing and... well... its definitely Elder Scrolls, engine runs perfectly on my Radeon HD card with Ultra settings and so on, everything should be perfect but... maybe that's the interface : yeah, if you've got used with Oblivion's interface, Skyrim's is quite troubling and buggy too. Ok you can have two swords, but why do you have to drop your shield (i.e. change your current favorite) from your left hand to be able cast spell mapped to same hand with right mouse button ? weird...
and the characters, everybody look over-body-builded comparing to previous version(s) characters...

waiting for mods, quick !!!

I decided to wait a few months for all the problems to be sorted out... I'm looking forward to Grimrock instead

Meanwhile, one of the guys who was more in to things like Modern Warfare has gone and bought Skyrim and is really enjoyign it. Woohoo! Skyrim = gateway RPG drug. Who knew?

after playing more, there are things I miss from oblivion which should not happen in the next iteration of a game.. like, haggling for better prices.. there is none of that now.. either you take it or you don't. better prices come with time..

training, there does not appear to be a way to train spells as we used to or perhaps I'm just not seeing it. it's pretty much that you need to use spells as they were intended, and there's no way to make spells to help you train them. In fact there are hardly enough of the old spells as far as I can tell, there's about 3 destruction spells for fire, ice and lightning and that's it. Gone are the "pack mule" type spells to help you carry more.. gone are the attributes like strength and so on.. They've really slimmed down on a LOT of things.

For all their statements about non agressive characters and beasts.. they have BARELY changed things.. now they just wait an jeer until you come in range and then attack. There were non agressive animals in oblivion.. so it's not such a change really.. the way they talked it up though was as if they were making this huge change to character interactions.. like the possibility to get chatty with bandits rather than have them attack all the time.. after all how does one sign up to be a bandit if they kill anyone who comes close? No.. very dissapointed there.

a series of graphical glitches are also now making people more upset. and so starts the decline of skyrim's popularity. They put together a better looking game for sure, and yes there is still fun in there, and yes I still play it for long hours. so in the end did they succeed commercially? yes, did they produce what they hyped.. not a chance.. do they still have artists who can barely texture their way out of a wet paper bag? yes.. they have a long way to go in terms of artistic appeal and graphical awesomeness. The animation is still (as I suggested above)pathetic.. artistically.. I'm a spoiled brat now.

Good to get your views on it Cows. Finally, an artist I respect giving it a good critical drubbing! Seriously though, I've kept up with the news on it and decided not to bother for now. Perhaps in the future some of your short comings will be addressed and it'll improve it. For now though, I'm on my 4th play through of Dead Island - a seriously flawed game, but highly fun nevertheless!

well, to be really critical, it appears they did hire some new blood. Because some races look good, while others do not, some items look great, and others do not. which is a change from everything looking kind of crummy.. now it's only half crummy

My biggest issue has been animation.. to be fair, they have added additional animation, but into a place where you see it rarely which is the killing moves. They are trying to do the prince of persia thing where they change camera angle and do a kill finishing move.. but really, those are seen maybe 10% of the game.. most of the game is you running, jumping, interacting with the environment.. thats where that extra touch should be put.. again I point out a game like uncharted 3. where the character doesn't just run.. he walks up and down stairs, he pushes off walls when he get's too close to them, he holds his arms up near open flames, hits the ground and rolls when he falls from a great height, etc etc. When it comes to character interaction a solid 40% of the game.. since it really depends on talking to a lot of people to see what's going on, to buy things and do odd jobs.. this is where some real acting should come in.. but it's no there.. again uncharted 3.. a lot of it. motion captured, yes.. but I'm under the impression they did some of that in skyrim for a few of those finishing moves anyway.. it's this focus on adding things like gore, and finishing moves to make it "cool" .. when people play it not to be "cool" but to be immersed in a different world, and the little touches like that would help immensely..

this is all artistic elements I'm freaking over though.. above i did mention a few elements I missed, but in the end, the game is one of the few that feels like you will play your moneys worth in it. I've always found that these games take months to get through.. there's something like more than 300 locations in the game.. the most adaptable version of it will be for PC.. and patches come readily. as a PS3 guy, I got a patch this week which should fix something that's gone wrong somewhere.. probably the file save bug. I still saw the texture streaming bug after the update so it wasn't that. and as always, more content will be coming.. so it's not like you buy something that you can't enjoy, and enjoy a long time.. but if you do wait, then the one thing you might find, is a bundle with added content packs.

My brother showed me Skyrim the last evening, and played the first few moves.
There's one thing I have to state: They do have reached a point where I can understand Paul now when he said 'I don't must see the dirt under the nails of a monster' (about graphics). And watching the intro scenes I have to subscribe the words of my brother: I'm a player, not a butcher.

Being annoyed by the ADSW-key-movement at that point, and nerved by lockpicking, he turned it off and showed me the intro part of Drakensand. I liked that immediately!

i tried out the first elder scrolls, never finished it though. everyone who i knew who played this series was lost to it, didn't see them for months they were so taken in with it, they lost their life for a few months, didn't shower, had to go to their house to get their attention. you could see the grease in their hair with their eyes fixed on the screen. it's pure addiction. being a DM addict is already quite pressing and difficult to excuse with my spouse it all seemed pretty much a repeat, there were not enough puzzles, more or less a lot of mindless roaming in a much to large environment. have to have a look at V, wonder how long it will take my friend to remember i still exist

The last halfway decent RPG Bethesda made was Morrowind. Oblivion was an ok diversion, but ultimately pointless as everything scaled to your level. Imagine that in DM, you might manage to get to Archmaster, but why bother as you turn a corner and it's a challenge to even kill a rat! Any point to level/train or play? Thought not! I haven't played Skyrim but while I hear it''s not as bad as Oblivion I can't see it being much better (I know Bethesda). For a start I hear they've ditched stats, I don't know how that is suppoesed to work in an RPG, but just another indicator of the obvious dumbing down these days that's proliferating every genre. Don't intend to buy it or into it. I can't remember the last time I bought something off the shelf for PC. I only give money to Indie/Roguelike and retro development nowadays. The corporate sharks will never get another penny off me while I breathe.

Comparing Bethesda games (post-morrowind) to DM et al is an insult to DM IMO. DM was years ahead of it's time and still displays game mechanics which have yet to be emulated let alone bettered. While Oblivion was a backward step for it's time compared to other PC rpg's (dumbed down for the console crowd) and Skyrim (looking passed the tech) is doomed to be nothing special because it has to cater for same crowd (weakest common denominator).

Tony.

EDIT: WOW looking back I didn't mean to rant..but this subject clearly pisses me off

We positively encourage rants here. Keep it up!

I completely agree with everything you wrote, Tony!