Legend of Grimrock

PetriH · Post by **PetriH** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:49 pm

Crash. wrote:Interesting Runecaster interface layout - can the runes be selected using the keyboard numberpad? I also have a control suggestion. Is it possible to add a single key command for the lead/active character to "take all" for the items that are on the current square? Finally, I seem to recall that one of the parts of DM style games that I always found tedious was using missile weapons, such that I had to spend way too much time picking up arrows so I would prefer melee weapons and magic. I always thought it would be an interesting idea to implement a certain number of "magic arrows" in the game, that return to the quiver automatically after doing their damage.

Thanks very much for sharing the gameplay video; it looks brilliant. I'm sold on this game.

Cheers

Collecting missiles manually is something we intend to fix. We're very aware that it sucks. A lot.

Babe Bridou · Post by **Babe Bridou** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:03 pm

@PetriH
It really looks great, I'm impressed. Keep going!

One small thing:
Did you try alternative points of view? I feel the "move to the tile then look down" routine to pick up stuff from the floor is going to be very tiring after a while.

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:10 pm

Babe Bridou wrote:re: step based movement
2) you can't go as fast/slow as you'd like with wsad. In general you have two modes, running and walking, and nobody ever walks. You know what's not fun? walking down the same corridor, taking those turns that you know by heart/muscle memory because you've been through this place forever, and still take the same minute to traverse the place (Corpse running to Blackrock Mountain, anyone? ). How about making it 10 seconds if you're skilled, fast, and know the place by heart? More fun? Yes. One of the true reasons why Dungeon Master was fun? Yes. Possible with seamless movements? No.

That is an extremely good point that I had not thought of at all. In DM, after a while I got to know some of the levels so well I could fly through sections that I had already gotten to know, which was extremely helpful in situations where it was necessary to backtrack 3 levels to find food and water, or some item that I thought wasn't important at the time.

Cheers

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:24 pm

PetriH wrote:Collecting missiles manually is something we intend to fix. We're very aware that it sucks. A lot.

It sounds like you are thinking of everything. One of the things that I prefer in and RPG is a backpack style inventory system, something that is lost in games such as Bioshock, and makes me hope that if there is ever a System Shock 3, they put the inventory grid back in. Still, it seems like there are ways to improve and streamline the old inventory convention. After playing a game like STALKER, then moving to Fallout3, where one of the movement keys contextually became useful to quickly "take all", I found myself wasting a lot less time looting items if I could see that I was going to take everything anyway. Then when I went back to a STALKER sequel, I found looting to be tedious and cumbersome. There are some improvements that should be adopted by all as convention, or at least be offered as an option. I hadn't even thought about ways to (blasphemy) improve upon DM, but that seems to be a worthwhile discussion.

One thing that arrived on later versions of DM and/or clones were keyboard commands for attacking and runecasting, right? So what else have people thought about as ways to evolve the DM control scheme?

Cheers

Babe Bridou · Post by **Babe Bridou** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:48 pm

I would create one item that is some sort of "chest of arrows" that drops when the monster was hit with various missiles. Pick it up and all characters get all their ammo back at once and they go automatically in the spot they were before being fired. That way you keep the relative homogeneity between missiles and other items (shoot an arrow to activate a pressure plate behind a teleport, for instance), but reduce the hassle of item management.

PetriH · Post by **PetriH** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:15 pm

Babe Bridou wrote:It really looks great, I'm impressed. Keep going!

Thank you!

Babe Bridou wrote:Did you try alternative points of view? I feel the "move to the tile then look down" routine to pick up stuff from the floor is going to be very tiring after a while

You can also pick up items from the tile in front of you, but I see your point. We have twiddled with the POV but so far it seems that POV only won't solve the problem satisfactorily.

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:51 pm

How about a key to blindly grab the first item at your feet (in the current square) and place it on the on screen hand? If it isn't what was wanted, you could always pitch it, but this would alleviate the need to look down if that became tiresome.

Post by **Ameena** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:23 pm

Omfg wow that vid looks really cool

. I linked it to my dad, who's on Facebook and is a fan of DM and DM-like games, and he added you guys to his friends list or whatever it is - he thinks your game looks brilliant as well

. Looking forward to future updates and whenever the game actually comes out

.

Post by **linflas** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:23 pm

how do you unlock mouse free look ? by maintaining space bar pressed ?

Post by **Zyx** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:43 am

Amazing! Will you make a level editor available?

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:58 am

http://www.grimrock.net/frequently-asked-questions/

According to their FAQ:

Will there be a level editor?

"Most likely at some point but not immediately with the initial release. We are fully concentrating on making a great game first."

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:28 am

Bridou.. I could argue my point.. but as I already said. DM nexus has already proven it for me.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_DNU5X2jGg

free movement, DM style attack and puzzles. Sorry, it can and has been done already. I've also tested it on my own in the past (nothing I've released, but indeed tested) and it worked there too..

Anyway, Petrih, it's you're guy's game, and I'm sure DM fans will be all over it. I'm just hoping those few allow for enough income for you all to pay off the cost of the development.

Babe Bridou · Post by **Babe Bridou** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:28 am

Come on Cowsmanaut, DM Nexus, however you put it, is not what I call a fun game nor a success. You could have mentioned Ultima Underworld, the Elder Scrolls series, the Might & Magic series after 6, Dragon Age, heck, even Minecraft... just not DM nexus. The gameplay is slow as hell, terribly boring, and definitely a game I avoid mentioning when it comes to citing FTL's legacy.

Anyway I respectfully wish you are wrong and that new players will love Legend of Grimrock

Post by **linflas** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:09 pm

@bridou : you forgot to mention how ugly Nexus is

Babe Bridou · Post by **Babe Bridou** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:18 pm

linflas wrote:@bridou : you forgot to mention how ugly Nexus is

Wait until you see my creations, they bring whole new meanings to the word "ugly", that's why I won't pass any judgement in that department.

Regardless, Legend of Grimrock will not have that particular problem

Post by **Gambit37** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:19 pm

For the record, FTL had virtually nothing to do with Nexus, so they can't really be blamed nor applauded for that game. It was entirely developed by JVC. FTL just licensed the name and helped with the story.

As for gameplay trailer: I don't have time to list all the positive things I want to say. So I'll just say:

YYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY!

This is clearly the spiritual successor to DM that we've all been waiting for. My toes sweat in anticipation...

Post by **cowsmanaut** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:51 pm

I wasn't talking about nexus being a success as a game. Just that the mechanic was done, and functional. ie, tile based environment with free movement in 3D with the possibility of DM style puzzles. If Dm Nexus sucked or not, was not a factor in my statement. You said it was impossible.. obviously it was not. It's also one of the only examples of free 3D movement that is DM.. I've heard many say games like System Shock contained a hefty puzzle element with story and is a 3D free movement game, but I never played them either. I tried to ignore games like portal which focus's more on the portal, but does contain some altered DM like elements.. ie large pressure plates, zoom corridors, laser deflection(like stonekeep), etc. However there is a hefty bit of jumping in it too which is not DM like. Other things like Laura croft, or indiana jones also had 3D puzzles but again, I didn't mention them due to the fact that you spend a bit of time jumping and moving 3rd person, but mechanically those puzzles could have been done with out.. So, mechanically I can see DM without step based movement, and I can see it working just fine. It Irks me when people say it's not possible, because I know it is... I've seen plenty of evidence.

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong as well. I just worry because of the other start up companies I see close down after trying to release a title that didn't sell enough. One of which I was working for back in the day. Though for them they got their game hacked and uploaded to the net with thousands of downloads, but only a few hundred purchases.. Didn't make back their investment and that was it. Right now I see a new studio, several new computers, time and money that has to be paid back to keep the development of new games after this one. I'd like to see that happen. I look at how a game like Undercroft could be abandoned by a still functioning studio and eventually picked up by someone else but released free... this suggests limited interest.. or at least limited interest in paying for it.. I did see a few forum posts in the past of people requesting it be passed around for free (before it was released free).. Yet at the same time toting how good a game it was. *sigh*

So I hope monetary support comes from those on this board once the game is done... and that's the last I'll bother saying. Bring on the next trailer

Post by **linflas** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:35 pm

Main problem with free 3D movement is mouse pointer because there's ... none, until you find a way to release/unrelease it. And that's why I asked PetriH about that.

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:54 pm

I've been watching the LoG blog, and have read various articles that are popping up about this game. The comments being posted in every location seem to indicate that a lot of people have been waiting for this game for quite some time, as many of them are offering to pre-order, buy on launch day, or even make donations. There is unanimous excitement for this game. Still, the game developers could probably benefit from some help from us enthusiasts, if we can spread the word and try to raise awareness among a wide variety of gamers outside of the DM faithful, by doing things such as 'Liking" the game http://www.facebook.com/grimrockgame, "Digging" the game http://digg.com/news/gaming/legend_of_g ... anoidgamer, telling friends and family, and commenting on other blogs, news, and gaming sites. In particular, getting the news and discussion going on many appropriate game forums could help get this game the buzz it deserves. Remember, the more successful this game is, the more likely it is that we will see a dungeon editor, additional content, and maybe even a sequel. I think it is time for proper first person dungeon games to return.

Cheers

Post by **Gambit37** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:59 pm

Totally agree with you Crash. This game is being produced by professionals who know what they're doing, and that is so clear in the work they've shown so far. It's no wonder that people are already wanting to pre-order, it's clearly going to be a good game. Of course, judgement must be reserved until I've played it, but from what I've seen it seems to have a good balance of old school vibe to satisfy us retro gamers, and new school aesthetic to satisfy the more modern gamer.

PetriH · Post by **PetriH** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:43 pm

Crash could not have said it any better. We are only four guys working on this but we know exactly what we want to do and we are perfectly confident that we can do it. But at the same time we have only a limited amount of time to post on forums and spread the word. Who could be better than you, the true fans of the original DM, to do it? We promise to do the best game we possibly can in the time we have left. If the sales are good, we'll extend the game further with updates and releasing a level editor is also a possibility. If the sales are not good enough then... it was an epic journey at least. This is something you guys can have a great influence on. So please spread the word, we would appreciate it a lot if you could do this

PetriH · Post by **PetriH** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:48 pm

linflas wrote:how do you unlock mouse free look ? by maintaining space bar pressed ?

Sorrry it has been a hectic day and I forgot to answer your question earlier. It's actually quite simple: you hold the right button down to maintain mouse look. If works well because mouse look is not a critical part of gameplay like it was in EFDM, for example, so you won't be using it all the time.

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:11 am

Lord_BoNes · Post by **Lord_BoNes** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:17 am

WOW! This looks like a great game in the making. I look forward to seeing it completed.

@Crash: I like the look of some of those pictures, especially the ant-warriors... they'd look great using the LoG engine! The beholder would be a good one too...

Clark Kent · Post by **Clark Kent** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:30 am

This game is my dream come true!

I'm a huge Dungeon Master fan (and when I mean Dungeon Master, I mean the first part in the dungeon - I do not like Dungeon Master II as it is way too complex!). If the game mechanic is the same as in Dungeon Master (and it seems to be even better) this game would be a real sequel to the milestone in role playing games! Modern role playing games - not a single one - are not as appealing as this old classic!

The tile movement is just the best for such kind of games...

I hope that the level design is as clever and thrilling as in the original game. I also hope that the players could level up in health, stamina and mana. For the spells the same method as in Dungeon Master should be used - with the expection that a spell book where you can collect spells should simplify using them as it's boring to click always the same combination of runes for a spell...

AND it's absolutely great that this game will also be released for MacOS X! Woooohoooo!

Crash. · Post by **Crash.** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:02 pm

The only thing about this game that concerns me, is a projected play time of 8 hours. That seems quite short to me when compared to Dungeon Master or any other RPG. Can anyone suggest what the original play time for Dungeon Master or Chaos Strikes Back may have been? Thanks!

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:06 pm

Dungeon Master takes about 4 hours doing everything, and less than half an hour (DM or CSB) in a speed run

Clark Kent · Post by **Clark Kent** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:21 pm

Playtime is really no problem - as long as new additional games/levels are planed or even a level editor where the community could provide some new games...

PetriH · Post by **PetriH** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:22 pm

Crash. wrote:The only thing about this game that concerns me, is a projected play time of 8 hours.

Sorry but that's not true. There is no estimate of how long it will take to finish the game yet.

Post by **Ameena** » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:25 pm

Time taken to finish a game varies anyway - yes, it may only take a few hours to finish DM now, when we all know what's where and what to do, but back when we first played it, it took me and my dad months to get through it! Okay so now there's the Internet with various guides and people on hand to bug for help, but Grimrock's not gonna have such help straight away, I would presume - only as people play through and start posting up the various secrets of the game as they're discovered.

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