What the... Snow in June, then in August!

[Chaos-Shaman]

Dungeon Master rocks, and Return to Chaos is f**king awesome!
There ya go, Jan

hehehe, you're suppose to be a peacemaker

[Chaos-Shaman]

well it all comes down to this, it's been real cold in some places, so i guess it's going to be another cold winter in may parts of the northern hemisphere. there is no greenhouse right now, maybe next year and for goodness sakes, don't pollute unecessarily, just live happy with kindness and forgive and to just plain say, thanks man

[Jan]

there is no greenhouse right now

You know, the funny thing is that I never know if what you write is meant as serious or not. This (above) is exactly the moment where I'd say "wait a minute, wait a minute" when examining a student. And if he replied he was being serious, he'd fail. I'm sure you know that the greenhouse effect is a natural mechanism in our atmosphere (or virtually in any other atmosphere) that warms it up currently by about 33 C (*), so without it, the Earth would be a damn cold place, with the annual global mean temperature well bellow zero (-18 C). Of course, the more greenhouse gasses you have in the atmosphere (mostly troposphere), the stronger is this effect. It's almost that simple.

But I'm sure you know all this. But why then, for heavens' sake, would you write "there is no greenhouse right now"? I'm confused.

(*) In these ca 33 C of the greenhouse effect, you have currently ca 20 C of water vapour, 7 C of CO2, 2,5 C of tropospheric O3, 1,5 C of NOx etc.

[Chaos-Shaman]

thanks Jan. i wasn't sure if this was gonna turn out terrrible or not, but from what you just said, it's in the dialetical intellect area that has taken place. i'm a cross between serious and a joker it takes the combo sometimes to get answers from others. yeah, i find the terminolgy of the greenhouse very loose, people think it shouldn't be there, so the first thing that pops in there minds are we're making it, and it's doom for the planet, and if anyone tries to explain the situation, their ears clog, their head turns away and this wall of ignorance goes up. i've seen it so many times. you wouldn't believe some of the stuff i've heard from TV only educated. everyone seems to talk about the weather and climate, but just about nobody takes a moment to have their own look. i've been studying closely how the TV reporters function with their selected skewed data, especially the wording! this is where i find the most problems in comprehension. after some years of assessing their behaviours, i have come to the conclusion that it is more attention grabbing to upscale the damages, the fierocity, the WOW factor. everyday people wouldn't know the truth because they don't spend the time to check up on what's said, or watched the reporters and scientists for long enough to catch their trends of behaviour. i think they should remove the term greenhouse, it's totally not accurate in explanation, misleading, and instead start using all the layered spheres
that we learn when we're in grades 5 and 6. scientifically, there is no greenhouse, it's a coined term, a bad one. it is never pointed out how important it is, just how terrible it is. it's an easy theory to test, just ask some of your students. i really do not like what they are doing to people these dayz. this guilt thing has to go. i've had some children say to me, what do you care, you created all the pollution, WHAT? , this disturbs me. they are convincing them that humans are bad, and there are some bad ones out there yes i know. so now these youngsters think going green is the right way, but they are being fooled here. buying green is a marketing ploy. wind power is good, solar is good yes, but they don't understand that the big bosses are still going to sell that coal and petros, and they are going to pay MORE for their green. it won't stop the use of these fuels. trust me on this, we'll use it ALL up, and our kids are thinking that we won't use it. but you and i both know they won't stare at it in the ground, they'll sell it off while making our children pay more for their so called green energy, hahahaha, it's green and expensive, but it won't stop the use of it, not a chance, it's simple economics. anybody who thinks we will stop burning these fuels is gravely mistaken, and it's the third world countries that will burn it as the big bosses profit ( i watch the market place all the time, they have big plans for oil and gas, China the coal ) it's all gonna get burned anyway. so i ask, why should i let them rob my children of more affordible fuels and increase their costs when i know they will sell it anyway. it's not going to make any difference except make them pay more. where are the don't pollute campaigns that they use to have in the 60s? i do not believe there is a man made increase in global temperatures, but as you already know through earlier explanations how i believe the slight warm up and cool downs are occuring. i spent time like the many other scientists who don't believe it either, only i studied the minds more so than the data. people want to believe anything that is scary, guess it's the chemicals being released, i am not sure, it's not a good story or worth worrying about unless it's disasterous. i think this is where a lot of our problems in understanding lie. everyone looks for blame right away, just as TV teaches them to do. every storm is man made now, all the earths problems are man made. seriously, they have not scene anything all that devasting, it is yet to come, and it won't be from us burning fossil fuels either. please speak your mind some more i have no sword in my hand, my shield is lowered half way.

[Chaos-Shaman]

Leave it to the Russians scientists to stir some long awaited truths about the Arctic Ocean floor with their study of Methane plumes of gases from ocean floor activity.
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/gi ... 04179.html
They didn't mention the current recently discovered that flows from Iceland into the Arctic ccean, it's considerably warmer and it's obvious why.

[Jan]

I'm just waiting for the Russian politicians to use it as another "shiny" argument for them to have "reasonable" territorial ambitions in the Arctic.

I remember one international geographical conference I had the "pleasure" to attend. There was an "interesting" debate between a Canadian and a Russian scientist about claims of various countries in the Arctic (the Russian scientist looked more like a KGB-FSB agent and had three or four golden rings on his fingers):

Canadian scientist: "How do you justify such a large claim in the Arctic that the Russian Federation has?"

Russian scientist: "Because in the Arctic area Canada has only 650 lightly armed policemen whereas we have two armoured divisions there."

Canadian scientist: *speechless*

Audience: *stunned*

PS Just to avoid any misunderstanding: two postgraduate students of this Russian professor are excellent friends of mine and they (those two students) are people I deeply admire.

[cowsmanaut]

not a huge fan of Might = Right. However, since their usual playmate is the USA, and that's their motto as well.. I suppose it's only natural. I do of course mean those in power, not the average Russian, American, or Canadian...

We're (read as "our governing people") going to have to adopt a cooperative view of planet resources and duty if we are to survive the whims of this planet. The more we push consumption of resources which are not required (ie oil) or the consumption of gold purely for the sake of value, etc.. we mine and rape the earth and leave waste behind.. what result can we expect from that.. I don't mind research and interest.. seeking knowledge of our planet.. but it seems that these large claims of land and battles over location, all the posturing etc, like this Russian "Scientist" is a result to seeking resources as a value/power, rather than the value of knowledge and research.

What do I know though.. I'm just a tree hugging pacifist.

[Jan]

That's too sensible! Go stand in the corner!

[MasterWuuf]

Anyone seen snow yet? Definitely none in this area.

[beowuuf]

It's cold and rainy and occasionally there's been reference to snow in other places, but none here yet

[Seriously Unserious]

none here, just rain, lots and lots of rain.

but the mountains in my area did get some snow a few weeks ago, then it got wiped out by rain, lots and lots of rain...

[Seriously Unserious]

We-ellll, now I'm getting snow, lots and lots of snow.

I've got about 5 cm on the ground and it's still falling. The forecast is calling for another 10-15 cm tonight.

[cowsmanaut]

it wasn't really snow.. it was little balls of ice meant to look like snow.. but then it went to rain..and then little ant snow balls.. then rain.. and now the entire of my area is nothing but slush.. all I need is some cherry syrup.. people are trying to walk in it and look miserable.. and those trying to drive in it are equally moody.. we need real snow.. fluffy.. packable.. but not soaking wet!

[Ameena]

Haven't had any more snow here. It was pissing it down with rain earlier, but that's about it .

[Seriously Unserious]

A friend of mine said that it was dumping snow in Burnaby, where he works right up until about 2pm, before it started turning into rain. And parts of Canada Way, and the Port Mann Bridge had to be closed due to excessive snow, same with roads near the coast, so the snow seems to be very localized, where I live it changed into slush, and began rotating between rain, slush and a mixture of the 2 fairly early in the morning.

[cowsmanaut]

Port mann was closed due to falling icy death.. something like 40 people injured from falling ice.. and best yet.. they paid to go over that bridge and be sent to hospital.. :S

I was hoping to have my Daughter celebrate her first snowman.. but it appears too much to ask of our weather system I feel deeply betrayed.. I've been waiting forever for a good snow fall for her, last year one appeared to have happened while we were in France (where we got no snow) .. then when we came back it was gone.. so now it snows, and before I can partake.. it's slush.. We're talking about going up to the mountain where we can get some actual snow.. hopefully we can enjoy that.. I also need to grab some high res images of snow in various forms for my matte painting classes.. I found the one thing students didn't know.. was how snow actually looked on various different surfaces.. we take so much for granted

[Seriously Unserious]

If you want some decent snow for your daughter, you should be able to find some on Burnaby Mountain, it's been getting hammered with snow, and although it will probably get some rain on Thursday, it should be back to snow again on Friday. Of course, it could just continue to snow on Thursday as well, or just start raining and continue for the foreseeable future.

I'm hoping to enjoy some decent snow on Burnaby Mountain on either Friday or Saturday, myself so *fingers crossed*.

[Chaos-Shaman]

well now , did everyone get snow by now, FEEL the COLD yet. the northern hem was very cold this year, lots of cold and snow, places that normally don't get snow got it, some deserts got it as well, maybe the the weather stripping and added insulation to that greenhouse was damaged. who knows. read a couple of interesting books on GW scamming. it is quite simple, anything to do with weather is unpredicable, which is why it's the most talked about subject on the planet, which is being used to scare people, people who love the planet and want to do what's right, are being fooled into GW. we all want to breathe clean air, drink safe waters. i do my share, i take a bus, don't go on vacations, not in 27 years, that alone is quite a bit of carbon prevention, i hope EVERYONE else is doing the same instead of being hypocrites and buying green, fooling themselves that it is a good choice, not thinking that GREEN means there is something wrong with the product, so just because it says it has 20% less this or that, doesn't make it safe or a wise choice, don't buy it if you know it pollutes, and this is where the problem is.
well, have a look at all those internet charts of weather this winter that are so readily available.
GW is real, and natural, say no to carbon taxing, there is a lot of bad things going on with that, each poor country will sell the carbon tax dollars to the more rich countries so they can produce more CO2, so nothing is really changing, just the poor countries will remain poor and will never be allowed to grow because of the new rules, they can't afford the CO2, but they can sell it, go figure.
there is way to much to know about this subject... but the newest explanations for this earth cycle doesn't even include CO2, it's called CLOUDS.

[Bit]

Since 1st of November we had hardly 5 nights without any form of water coming down...

[Seriously Unserious]

After one freak snowfall in December we haven't had anything close to snow here. Just loads of rain. The rain's not anything unusual, but the almost complete lack of snow is. Not that I live in a snow belt by any stretch, but there usually is at least 1 or 2 decent snows (10 cm or more) in January or February but for the last decade or so, those have been unusually rare for the most part.

As for global warming, the fact is Earth's average temperatures have warmed up significantly over the past 30-50 years or so, much more then would be normal even in a natural climate shift to warmer weather (ie. an interglacial period, which is the opposite of an ice age). I don't have the exact stats off hand, but I have seen them and it's definitely an unnatural climate shift. The only thing that can explain it is our actions. Climate changes as rapid as we are currently experiencing have never occurred before in the history of the Earth, and this rise in global temperatures perfectly coincides with the rapid industrial developments of the 19th and 20th centuries. Don't get me wrong, there have been other times in Earth's history where sudden climate shifts have occurred, but there has always been some sort of catastrophic event to trigger it, such as a massive meteor impact, a huge volcanic eruption, sudden changes in solar activity, something.

In this case it appears to be the huge increases in greenhouse gas emissions from industrial activities, and mostly by our choice to use dirty energies when there are many clean options available, but, of course, the mighty petroleum industries wouldn't make the killing out of clean, renewable energies then they do out of the dirty, finite supply energies.

[Ameena]

But when the oil supplies run out, they'll be buggered anyway so hopefully that'll happen soon and then we can all laugh and say "I told you so", apart from the fact that stuff like food transport will also be buggered so there's nothing to buy in the supermarket and stuff .

[Chaos-Shaman]

the earth has actually been cooling for the past 11 years from its warmest period. don't believe any of those skewed stats, dig deeper and you'll start to see what i am talking about. there is so many factors. you all heard of the little ice age, 70 years of cold weather that wiped out the Vikings. there was no trigger for that. this was the start of climategate, for they uncovered the records of conversations on how to hide those stats. don't forget the hockey stick theory too. read up on the clouds, for they are the ones that contribute the most to climate fluctuations. poles are melting becauase of sub volcanoes, and from cryronite (black soot) formed over centuries, so this melts from above and below. i don't expect the Arctic to keep its sea ice, but i really doubt that Greenland will melt, Antarctica won't melt through, it's mostly land, way above sea level, the ice is miles thick although you do here of large waves breaking away the surrounding ice shelves. there are so many factors that the small percentage of CO2 at 38 molecules for every 100,000 molecules of air, out of this we produce only 1 molecule every 5 years or so. stats, well, there is a lot of that. i'll give one today, we broke our old cold record this morning here in Whitby Canada, just a coincidence anyhow, there is a couple of years of reading before we go and believe the alarmist on the world melting. i too at one time thought GW was the end of us, only took a decade of reading articles and listening to others to begin to see and feel the truth, heh, when there is money, there is deceit, don't get me wrong, i want a safe world for my children\grandchildren, too.
man is not responsible for 90% of the earth warming, IT"S BULL... only time will tell, but in the meantime they are gonna kill off a lot of people in the process for there comes a time when the costs will outweigh the cause.

[Bit]

I remember August 2003. This was the hottest and most dry month I every lived through (and I'm not that young anymore).
40° C for about 4 weeks with no cloud and rain - and this in the middle of germany.
There was also an uncommon hot April a few years later. But...
after 2003 - we surprisingly had some winters with lots of snow again - which was missing for about 20 years.
I remember uncommon stormy autumns in the 90s.
About two years ago we drove through a thunderstorm with lightnings each 5 seconds - never saw that before too.
Temperature is jumping here like it never did before. We do have mini-tornados... - like my father showed me in the 60s...
This winter - water water water - as rain, as snow, as fog...
That's what I *see*! Somehow the extremes just change periodically.

But it seems to be a fact that the oceans get warmer, and that's not really good.
Whatever the reason is, the human faults are an add-on - which is surely a fact too.
How much? I'd say, whatever happens - nature is exponential, not linear. If it goes into the wrong direction, then probably much faster than the scientists already calculate.

[Chaos-Shaman]

yeah, there have been some extremes no doubt there, the hottest years though were back in the 1930s, before the increase in CO2. records are sketchy about climate and weather until satelites, and this is only 40 years. a polar shift has taken place. before 1977, there was the notion that we were headed into an iceage, then a climate shift occured, Alaska for example has been warm ever since, since that shift the papers were no longer saying iceage, but GW instead. so we really know squat about climate shifts, which i personally think it is happening now and has been for the years leading up to 2012 and will again for some year after 2012. there is so many factors and stats on this that i don't bother with it, it confuses people so i prefer to chat about the subjects context, not the numbers which are not all that accurate and much more study is needed. what most people know is the picture of smoke stacks billowing mostly steam on a cold day in the air, that's the horror picture, or the polar bear on a one 1 metre chunk of ice. these people should be afraid, that is all they know, so i am not surprised when i talk to others and notice this horrible fear taking over them, mostly young people. i was there once, too. trying to understand the reason why the ocean is slightly warming is very difficult, it also changes up as well with a few well know currents, these shifts can be deadly and completely natural. these upwellings of cold and warm waters are not on a time cycle that we understand yet. ocean floor is mostly unexplored. also, the sun and earth go through warm and cold phases, earth too emmits as well, just as the sun goes through active phases which we all believe when it emmits more, it gets warmer on earth. yeah, just too many pieces to the puzzle. now if you look at why the governments are doing it, and why the hired personal are doing it, that's a different story, and they are using it to their advantage. best to let people find out the truth for themselves is the way i see it, nobody will listen to it anyway... don't mind my missing caps, it's oldschool training

[Seriously Unserious]

I've definitely been noticing the trend in Vancouver of raising temperatures, overall. Sure they fluctuate form day to day, season to season, and year to year, but I also notice that the temperatures are above average more often, and at a higher degree, then that area below average. I've also been noticing the average temperatures have actually increased slightly over the past 20 years.

I have also seen many of the investigations into past climate through core samples of ice sheets, soil sediment samples, and tree ring samples all show a pretty accurate picture of the past climate, and how rapidly it shifts, and the rapidity of the changes in our climate have never occurred before, based on all this evidence. As for the middle ages mini-ice age, I have also seen a special about an investigation into the cause of this and there is significant evidence of a huge volcanic eruption at around that time, most likely Mt Krakatoa, which is proven to be capable of producing large enough eruptions to trigger a lengthy volcanic winder, lasting for a few decades, and to the degree of the middle ages ice age. Whether it was Mt Krakatoa, another volcano, or something else, according to recorded evidence form many cultures spanning Europe, Asia, Africa and the Americas, that something did happen at the time that kicked up enough debris into the upper atmosphere that it blocked out mush of the Sun's energy. In which case, that mini ice age would fall under the "triggered by a catastrophic event" category of rapid climate change.

The amount of airborne pollutants we are pumping into the atmosphere is massive, and is more then enough to have an affect on things. Combine that with the level of deforestation, and other areas of pollution, like ground and water, which will all eventually work their way into the air though evaporation, just like the air pollutants eventually work their way into the ground and water through rain and runoff and it ongoing over a period of time, at levels that the environment just can't keep up with and our activities can and will have a huge affect. No other species in the history of the Earth has developed the ability to control and change the environment to suit our purposes as the Human species has. That is an awesome power and we must learn to use it wisely otherwise we will continue to foul our planet up until it can no longer support us, regardless of whether it's climate change or poisoning that does it, really doesn't matter.

[Sophia]

we must learn to use it wisely otherwise we will continue to foul our planet up until it can no longer support us, regardless of whether it's climate change or poisoning that does it, really doesn't matter.

I really dislike when certain factions (in the US, mostly right-wingers allied with big business interests that care nothing about the environment) use "climate change skepticism" as an excuse to shoot down any environmentalist legislation of any kind, including stuff that is completely independent of climate change-- just common sense things that will help people-- but would cost their rich and powerful clients money.

Honestly, if CO2 was the worst thing we were dumping into our biosphere, we'd be a lot better off.

[Chaos-Shaman]

the planet warms and cools, we don't know how to predict it, it does happen. CO2 is a god given special gas, we need it, the planet has been warmer before. earth will balance itself off no matter what we do, it will be around a lot longer, even after a big rock takes most life out. it will start again.
i loved that meteor in Russia, and that flyby asteroid that we just found 12 months ealier, now that's where it will happen, i'm not to worried about an important green growing gas as CO2, which we'll have because there is no way man will stop burning fossil fuels, not a chance. as i said earlier, people have to stop driving their vehicles and flying off on vacations, this is all that we need to do, or at least reduce them.

[Seriously Unserious]

There are ways of powering vehicles that don't involve burning fossil fuels, the problem that big petrochemical wouldn't profit from such technologies, or at least not nearly as much as from a finite resource that can cost as mush as the market demands and rarity of the resource will bear. Such technologies are simply being suppressed. Once such technology was being developed right in my own home city of Vancouver, the Ballard Fuel Cell, which operates on burning hydrogen and produces as it's exhaust waste materiel water vapor. That's right, pure, clean water vapor. Similar technologies are being used in Iceland, but are nowhere to be found in North America, Asia or Europe. Then there's another Vancouver based company called Blue Energy who designs and manufactures hydro-electric generators that do not require damming up a river or any other major, environment altering, eco-system destroying mega projects. These generators can fit on a sea bed or river bottom and don't interfere with anything but can generate power in large quantities. Again this technology is ignored by the Canadian and US governments in favor of the mega project, environmental destruction archaic technologies. We can have progress without destruction. the technology does exist, we just have to demand that it actually be used, and that the old, obsolete destructive technologies be finally put to rest, where they belong.

Is there any information why the meteor did explode with such power?

Yes it does, and we know more then you realize about the patterns of how it does this by observation of how it has done this in the past. These observations show clear patterns of how these cycles work, and what causes them. There is plenty of evidence to show us how these processes work and what sort of time frame they typically operate on. This evidence clearly shows that what is happening now is an increase in average global temperatures, that it is happening faster then ever before and that the timing and rate of this increase correlates perfectly with volume of greenhouse gasses human are emitting through our technologies since the start of the Industrial Revolution. The pace of greenhouse gas emissions is speeding up faster then ever, as is the rate of increase of average global temperatures. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the rate of change is unprecedented. That means it has never happened before, in all the millions of years the Earth has existed for, no climate shift has happened this much, and this fast.

There are examples of rapid climate shift to be sure, but those all have some specific event that caused them. A volcanic eruption, a massive object hit the Earth's surface, or the Earth wobbled on it's axis, etc. For a shift in climate that is rapid in geological terms to happen, there must be some event that causes it. The current rapid climate change has not been preceded by any sort of major impacts to the Earth large enough to produce such a climate change, nor have any volcanic eruptions been large enough to explain it, nor has the Earth experienced any sort of axis wobble or magnetic pole shift significant enough to make a difference. The only event that has occurred within the last few hundred years significant enough to have an affect on our climate is human-related greenhouse gas emissions.

Changes in the Earth's energy emission cycles can be predicted, such changes tend to be cyclical, with a detectable pattern and occur over a period of 100's or 1000's of years. Changes in solar emissions likewise tend to be cyclic and occur over periods of 100's or 1000's of years, thus their effects take place slowly, over a similar time frame.

In case you're wondering, I have studied climate and meteorology in college, so I do have knowledge upon which to base my comments.

[Chaos-Shaman]

i love your explanations. i could respond to every one of those points, but as i said before, nobody listens to it.
man is doing what man is suppose to do. we can't remove the use of natural resources, it'll kill off much of the worlds population. alternative fuels don't even put a dent into the energy demand and each of them have their problems, too. this prediction that we will destroyed the world in 20 years is wrong. there will be no 20 foot rise in sea levels, just garbage science there. and human pop, everyone thinks we need to reduce population by stepping into incineration machines, hehe, it'll be sickness and war that will control our population, just like it has in the past. i too have read books and listened to others for what they have to say. if you have not read any books explaining the other side of the story, there is a bunch out there written by Climatologists, these guys went to school for their degree and they don't believe the CO2 is the sole reason for change in climate, this is from many horses mouths. when we have 100 years of satelite data, understand the sun and the earth better, we'll have a better idea, right now we need to do studies and don't go off the wall feeling guilty when you turn a light switch on, or crap in the toilet. we can't stop that, nor does any other animal even think about it except us. nature has a habit of wipping out everything, every animal does the same, and we're no different.
i enjoy this conversation. well controlled without the flames

[Seriously Unserious]

So do I. It can actually be quite fun to debate a topic when it's kept to the facts and not made personal.

As for alternative energy sources, there are alternatives that are powerful enough to produce enough energy to power our needs, it takes a lot of digging around to find them as these technologies are very highly suppressed by people and organizations that think they have a lot to gain by suppressing these technologies, never stopping to think about the simple fact that if we poison the air, land and water, we poison it for everyone, including those who think they're profiting from the burning of fossil fuels, never realizing, or never caring that they're poisoning themselves too. Personally, I call that kind of "profit at all costs even if it kills me and everyone around me" type thinking insane. I define sanity as doing activities that are pro-survival for self, family, groups, and species as a whole. Insanity is doing the opposite, it is neglecting responsibility in one or more of these areas, or even doing your best to destroy in one or more of these areas (what we'd call a psychotic).