Dungeon Master Forum

Magica, that's a bit harsh. They are both brilliant achievements and we as DM fans should consider ourselves extremely lucky that DSB and RTC exist and allow us to do all the things they do. Sophia and George have my thanks and admiration.

@Magica: Definately harsh. Both of the engines are still in basically a "beta stage" they're far from alphas (and DSB is still being developed). Catching the bugs you speak of is the EXACT reason that developers release a beta (to have it tested under scrutiny by many other pairs of eyes). And, EVERY game has bugs... especially when they were being beta tested, even the mighty Minecraft has still got plenty of bugs (it is considered waaaaaaaay passed beta stage, and it's even a commercial game!)
And to which bugs are you referring?

after 26 years I still can't hit a door ( DSB ) or throw a big stone ( RTC ) , do we have to wait another 26 years ..
I appreciate the hard work of the developers thats for sure , I am talking about the game play itself .. don't mess things please

Bloody LOL! 26 years later and it's the little things that eat you

EDIT: But, at least DSB is still being developed... and what do you mean "can't throw a big stone (RTC)"?

find the big stone on level one and throw it .. it stay on its place , different than the original for sure ..

@Magica:

These free games have been developed for many years by talented and enthusiastic fans. The authors of RTC and DSB have made their own changes to the game to make it better, more challenging, or simply for personal preference. They will not be exactly the same as the original.

If you don't like that, then simply play the original game. (Find out how here: http://dungeon-master.com/forum/viewtop ... 27&t=29583) Note: The linked thread contains off-topic posts from this one.

those little things ARE the reson I am not playing Skyrim or any other trying to stand games .. and instead I am here .
thank you all ..

To answer the stone querstion, throwing is a matter of strength - a normal strength person can only throw something that heavy half a square. Once you can generate strength potions and increase your strength to higher levels, you can throw things further.

RTC has, like all clones, some quirks of gameplay to be different from the original. Aerodynamics of objects was one. However, I think throwing a stone / skeleton is not too different. You certainly can't throw things far, a fact I used in DM2 at least once to fine tune activating pads right beside me in the middle of corridors.

The door thing in DSB might be part of a bug that will be dealt with next release.

The closest version of DM/CSB is CSBwin, if you can figure out the config file for fullscreen you might find it your best bet. Though as the atari version of the game, there may be some quirks if you were used to the PC/ Amiga version.

I am at the end of level 6 now ( playing DM ) on RTC , I want to thank everyone that has any role in developing this Great engine , its gave all I really wanted and the same feeling I was after since long time ..

when I finsh DM , I will play CSB wich I couldn't finish yet and I am happy to test any dungeon you my friends here want me to test ..

Thank you very much

that's coming Magica, you'll have many to test out playing it sure does bring back memories though, the days spent on an old tubed TV that had green and black blobs undulating on the corners of the set. great thing about the Amiga back then was it was stereo, so having 4 speakers setup around me, scared ya when a mummy went at you from behind. RTC did a good job of simulating everything. if GG was back into the game, he'd use something better for sound. he'd probably change a few things.

Chaos-Shaman wrote:, i'll post RTCs unlocked monster AI txt. all is true, no false .

Hi Chaos, so what exactly is this? A base code alteration, a dungeon text file, a mod? I'm not quite sure I followed any of what you said! sounds good though.

i'll post the .txt when Seriously Unserious says he's ready. i think it's there now. had to build a quick dungeon, so don't expect anything fancy, just some actions, and now all monsters can be directed and used. i'll send the .RTC file most likely this weekend and SU will post the .txt when he is ready.
i'm surprised how little warm welcome from some here, i thought maybe they'd have been more interested and happy for RTCers, but i don't see it, almost like nobody wants it. leaves me wondering why??????????? anyhow, it'll make some of us happy

You are posting in the DSB thread so it might get less exposure to those only playing dungeons/designing in RTC exclusively. Maybe post again in the custom dungeon or the RTC general again now it's close, and drop some preview examples?

yeah, I was wondering where to post it best.. what would be the best spot?

RTC general or editing is probably the best place for it, with the custom dungeon forum for any example dungeons or custom dungeons that use it

well, it is a dungeon, there is an end achieved only by using the Monster AI, it shows RTCs Monster AIs control. so in RTC somewhere and to the custom dungeon.
thanks beowuuf

Sophia wrote:George once observed that the system of actuators in RTC is Turing complete. What this means is that RTC actuators essentially are a programmable computer. Creating complex mechanics in RTC essentially is programming. There really is no difference-- except RTC's "language" is extremely low level and has some odd conventions related to being tied to a DM dungeon. On the other hand, Lua, used in DSB, has a somewhat steeper learning curve and can perhaps appear imposing, but basic techniques of higher-level programming like variables and procedures are readily apparent, rather than constantly having to be faked through various means. I feel this actually makes complex tasks easier in the long run. As a (somewhat extreme) example, the "Sokoban" puzzle in Surgical Strike was such a complex mess of triggers I actually had to write a separate program to automatically spit out the RTC mechanics in script form, which I then pasted into my dungeon. Sort of a "compiler," as it were. Preventing situations like this was one of my design goals for DSB.

Is there a proof of this "Turing complete" bit ?
A valid proof is a custom RTC dungeon that can simulate a Turing machine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_complete

I am afraid here,"Turing tarpit" is more appropriate than "Turing complete".

Beware of the Turing tar-pit in which everything is possible but nothing of interest is easy.
—Alan Perlis, Epigrams on Programming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_tarpit

That seems to be quite accurate. Accomplishing almost anything in RTC requires thoughts, like "this connects to that, which connects to something else, then something else again". Having to think like this is at times quite complex... and it's the main drawback of RTC: the length of time it takes to actually produce something of worth.
This seems to fit a rough description of a "Turing Tarpit", but it's more of a mudhole than a tarpit (the example given on wikipedia is pretty damn bad)

the monser AI in the RTC AI dungeon is real SIMPLE, the mechanics are straight forward. it can be mapped out on a piece of paper, and easy enough that you can see it in the minds eye. one look at it should tell you what's going on, only 20 relays and 40 actions, it's not hard at all once you've gone through it a few times, you'll know it, far easier than looking at lines of code. if the relays and actions are labeled it makes it even more easier. to make it dumb prooof, you can colour code the actions and the relays, now you can see it with colour as well as design. perfect for someone like me. what i've done in the past is create a set of coloured Relays Triggers Counters and Actions, oh, that's RTC for ya
i await instructions to upload the example. hats off to GG for the time spent to create that GUI in RTC.

What or who is stopping you to upload to any free ftp account ?

it's not that, it's SUs, i promissed it to SU. he's the only one who can give out the txt, he's just going through the quick dungeon built, needs to be play tested a bit first, you must know that there are a few here who can't wait to BREAK IT, so the AI has to be working enough for others to see what they can do. i'm not a programmer, i bet all you guys can do way better than me, once you spot what held everyone back from it. my heart tells me someone already knew and didn't tell us for some reason????

Indeed, either find a temporary storage space and I'll pull a copy to the DM.com webspace, or e-mail me directly on beowuuf@yahoo.com and I can host it on DM.com. You need to warn me if you've e-mailed me though, it's not my primary account.

got it beowuuf

terkio wrote:What or who is stopping you to upload to any free ftp account ?

As CS said, he is waiting for me to be ready with my Lynchgate RTC project, which was the original catalyst for this Monster AI system. I've been sidelined for the past few weeks with tendonitis in my left wrist so I had to halt work on my dungeon while I recovered. I only just got my wrist out of a splint today (or is it yesterday now?) and will be resuming work on Lynchgate within a week.

what's really amazing is now not only can the monsters be commanded to orders, but you can now hire monsters into the party, so RTC now has NPCs and monster ai anywhere they may be encountered, thanxs to SU MAX PARTY SIZE, i was able to get this to work.
the dungeons are gonna get better for sure.

What really amazes me about what you've done with the monster AI's that I've been testing is how you're able to do all this without the flexibility of a scripting language. You're having to work within the limits of whatever was provided by the RTC engine and the GUI editor and since it's no longer in development, you don't even have the option to ask to have a new feature added to make what you want work, yet you still managed it despite all these obstacles.

This also does go to show that the RTC engine is more powerful then people realize. I'd say my biggest regret for RTC is that George Gilbert didn't add in some sort of scripting support for those who like to work this way, so it could have been immensely more powerful and versatile then it is.

I think too many people (myself included) keep pushing at the engine limits rather than just make a dungeon. DSB is incredibly powerful, yet this forum is filled with feature requests - with only two original dungeons actually released!

I think RTC started in the right place, with simple building blocks so that many DM-like constructs could be created. Over time more and more was added, but the complexity is sort of at odds with the original 's 'you can have the occasional complex thing if you build it from simple parts 'origin.

DSB has taken over at the limit of RTC in that regard, but I think it's hampering the efforts. Rather than be an engine in itself, with the ability to be expanded, people are coming to it as 'RTC is hard work to get my huge complex mechanical stuff done, let's go here'.

What I'm saying is, I'd like to see more Unintended Heroism being released as the more complex dungeons being promised. Or even I'd like to see a Conflux I first, rather than people just jumping to Comflux III


All that said, of course, it is very cool when you see people push an engine - like the forthcoming Lytchgate, like Sophia's old RTC dungeons, and Adamski's Upside-down.

how i do it, ahhhh, SU, it took 3 seconds to think of the idea when you asked about monster ai, i knew the engine well enough to think it up, from years of playing with RTC and i hadn't done it before, but i saw it in my minds eye, same for NPC work, it was in my minds eye, however it did not work so i used the GO AROUND method, came up with a new idea as soon as my first idea went south due to engine mechanics. it helps to think outside the box, in this case brick walls. what is cool is my spouse programs using a GUI for telecommunications and understands what i'm doing. not the same thing, but the logic is the same.

beowuuf, i know what you mean, i would have built a dungeon complete a while ago, but the negativity that surrounds me when i mention RTC and how wonderful it is, it is too much for me. anytime i build up the power of RTC, someone comes by and shits on it. been like that since day one, i have all the messages and a long memory. i've asked on a number of occasions and in different ways attempting to reach out to others, i played stupid for a while as to not inflame others, it usually works, i don't mind but it went the other way and it was assumed that i was a play thing that could be made fun of. i know i'm not like everyone else, that's because i'm outside the box. sorry that people don't like it. well, i can see no matter what i do that i'll always face this. i thank Sophia for bringing in the power to me, she does not know it yet and i'm not going to explain it either, i have enough already. it is my intent to eventually be able to work with everyone. this is the adventure i wish to embark on.

Hey CS, I think you just took my point and ran with it in a direction I didn't mean.

Negativity is bad, but as you mention the only way to deal with it is with positivity and creativity. No one should let comments regarding an endeavour stop them from doing it unless they are constructive comments. However, negative comments in reply to negative or perceived negative comments are just going to sour the feelings towards any final creative product. Better to let a work stand on its own merits, and not waste creative time with negativity.


Anyway, I moved this out of the DSB forum, as it seems just as unfair to have it there as in the RTC forum it originally came from, since it's about both engines and the discussion of which is best for a particular person's plans. Also the debate has been at times a little to heated for me to be comfortable with it being in either place anymore.


My actual point was more to do with designers getting caught up with mechanics over a product. Fresh mechanics are cool, but many dungeons and ideas seem to stall when they get too bogged down with them and not have time to put a dungeon around them. I'm glad Lytchgate will have a chance to be both, by the sounds of it!


Some brilliant mechanically interesting dungeons have been released, but it's nice to see a spread. Zed manages a nice balance of simple dungeons and mechanically different ones. Even expanding a dungeon with iterations.

I would like to see as many DSB dungeons as RTC dungeons, yet it seems DSB is only pushed on the merits of its coding by many. DMJava, CSBwin, RTC and DSB all have a different feel when playing the base games, and all have the ability to create basic dungeons with an editor. I'd like to see more solid if simple dungeons rather than huge arguments start on which engine is or is not flexible for high end designs. I think pushing the engines has stagnated design a little - certainly I could have released a dungeon or two back in the day, rather than have the many tech demos that litter my HD! I daresay there are many people in the same boat. In fact the old DMute team dungeon probably came about from a group of us having that problem, and getting together to make one dungeon out of such bits and pieces.


Anyway, that was all! Constructive comments regarding which tool is good for a person is fine, aiming for amazing things is fine, but let's try to stop focusing on the 'best' engine only. Those discussions seem to lead to the biggest flames, and also produce less dungeons anyway.

I agree with you whole-heartedly, beo. All flamings and trying to push a favorite as better then the rest, or that someone is "wrong" for having a different preference then another does is enturbulate this forum and that just kills creativity. I usually just tune out the engine-basking-flaming comments and pay attention only to the constructive ones. I've had several times where I've posted a how to question about RTC where someone will try to tell me it's hopeless and to just give up and abandon my Lynchgate project on RTC and re-build it on DSB. If it really did come to that I'd probably just give up on the project altogether as I wouldn't want to figure out how to re-create what I've already done in RTC on a whole new engine. That would just be another unfinished project cluttering up this forum then... No I'd rather finish what I've started, where I've started it, and to hell with the nae-sayers. Either they'll enjoy the game just as much as everyone else, regardless of the engine it was designed on, or they probably wouldn't have enjoyed it anyways, no matter what I did, or where I did it.

At a guess, I'd say the most heated participants of the "engine wars" probably haven't ever finished many dungeon projects themselves anyways. So forget about fighting any wars, we get enough of that in RL and in the Dungeons anyways, so I'd rather save this board for creating more Dungeons to fight our virtual wars of good vs evil and discussing things with the many awesome members of this community.