Dungeon Master Forum

I guess all the experts out there know that already, still i was a bit suprised when I read this info and find that's a nice trick indeed. Yep, DM never fails to surprise me.

Not to mention that a Dungeon Master dungeon is a collection of flat maps connected by pits, stairs and teleporters, making the game world 2D as well.

That text looks familiar...was it from an ST magazine?

The caption under the picture is just idle chat about 3D.

Thorham wrote:Not to mention that a Dungeon Master dungeon is a collection of flat maps connected by pits, stairs and teleporter, making the game world 2D as well.

You mean 3D, I guess.

No, that's still 2D. 3D would be if there were pits you could move the camera to look down, or up to the next level.

This sort of game used to be called 2.5D, but I don't hear that any more.

2.5d was a term used for games like Doom and Hexen. The level construction was achieved by drawing lines/vectors and regions in what was effectively a 2d cad drawing, then assigning projected heights to each line and region, and a material. The engine then projected these heights into a faux 3d representation of spaces and volumes. So it was essentially all 2d with a clever projection to make it appear 3d, hence the term 2.5d.

You could not look down a pit or a hole into another space directly below you in doom. Quake was proper 3d engine utilising 3 dimensional space with real 3d model (x, y and z vertices and surfaces), in that you could occupy a space immediately below another one, so this was true 3d.

Grimrock is true 3d but has been self restricted to pay homage to the old skool grid based 2d RPGs. Full circle...!

If you really want to get technical, all graphics rendered on a normal screen are really 2d using perspective to create the illusion of 3d on a 2d surface. About the only way to create true 3d is to use some form of holographic projection technology, or something similar that creates a true 3d image with height, width and depth.

Of course, that's not to say that the engine can't be 3d, even when it has to be displayed on a 2d surface. a true 3d engine would, however, be more easily ported to a system capable of true 3d display, whereas a 2d engine may not be compatible with such a system without extensive recoding.

terkio wrote:You mean 3D, I guess.

No, I really mean 2D. A good example of a Dungeon Master style game that has a 3D world is Hired Guns.

Seriously Unserious wrote:If you really want to get technical, all graphics rendered on a normal screen are really 2d using perspective to create the illusion of 3d on a 2d surface. About the only way to create true 3d is to use some form of holographic projection technology, or something similar that creates a true 3d image with height, width and depth.

Very true. That just leaves you with the problem of humans being incapable of seeing in 3D.

Thoram, I think I see where you're going with that statement.....! SUPER technical... almost philosophical.

just a few shots and I see 4D, with a 5th in the middle. I am using Zbrush4, the first release was 2.5D, all this is new to me. has anyone here played with the sculpting tool? fun to play with.

Yeah I've had a go on it, using the actuated sculpting pen. It's incredible. Feels like you're sculpting solid objects for real. Didn't use it with stereoscopic glasses however.

ah, that's cool ebs. I wish I had the pen to try it, things are so different with the mouse. I still have fun screwing with it... learning material. it's just a matter of time before it imprints the mind. I bought the manual to zbrush4. in the front where the introduction to the basics it mentions how it was first designed in 2.5D and later became a 2.5D 3D tool. that's about all I know about it. I think 2D, 3D, 5D are all related in the way to be backwards compatible like Windows programs are. like plucking a string at its mid way point, and again and again.

Seriously Unserious wrote:If you really want to get technical, all graphics rendered on a normal screen are really 2d using perspective to create the illusion of 3d on a 2d surface. About the only way to create true 3d is to use some form of holographic projection technology, or something similar that creates a true 3d image with height, width and depth.

There are glasses that track the movement of your head and gives you the illusion of being inside such a world.
Then face the dragon! Being a bit realisitic it should bite
Well, now that all is just an illusion, drop the glasses and walk over the next crossroad

Seriously Unserious wrote:Of course, that's not to say that the engine can't be 3d, even when it has to be displayed on a 2d surface. a true 3d engine would, however, be more easily ported to a system capable of true 3d display, whereas a 2d engine may not be compatible with such a system without extensive recoding.

But Rasmus did already!

Yeah, I saw his videos, but I don't think he ever finished that project off. He got too busy developing Dwelvers and had to abandon a lot of his older not-for-profit type projects.

kanda's also doing some good work in this area with Dungoen Kings as well, which shows a lot of promise. Of course I am biased there as I'm helping him with his forum and website though.