Dungeon Master Forum

Seems fine, glad you linked level 10 : )

On level 11 (the corridor of the elements) there is a set of party bones for playtesting. Best to use them though, as the other puzzles still need tweaking. Just don't use them while your first party memeber is carryign anything important!

Question. Since I avoid playing with DM for PC (to exhausting getting sound and only mouse or keyboard work for me - nearly a death sentence) and therefore try to convert all dungeons for CSBwin - is there anything I can do about the graphics.dat? Like another converter that allows me to use this file, too?

Regards, PitD

First of all, I'm not sure wether the team dungeon is convertible to CSBwin or not. My guess would be no. At least, no, right now.
The graphics.dat for PC is little endian to start with. The graphics.dat for ST is big endian.
The algorythms of compression are not the same, if I remember well.
I think Kenzo is currently the guy who knows the most about those formats. You should ask him (he released some graphics tools at the misc tools forum)

I looked at the new graphics file. It appears to be
different in more fundamental ways than just endianess.

As an example, the Atari graphics included graphic
number 0x22e which defined a lot of the constants in the
game. It was size 0x1270. I cannot find it in the
TeamDungeon graphics file.

The conversion works, although when I try to start CSBuild I get a lot of duplicated object warnings, but it's possible. I will ask Kenzo about the graphics.dat, since without it a main part of the fun would be missing. I'm used to standard graphics since I always use CSBwin, but it would be great to have the graphics converted as well...

Regards, PitD

Sorry, PitD, I meant Kentaro-k.21, not Kenzo. Rain could also help you, I think.

Right now, CSbuild solves the "duplicated object warnings" by DELETING the objects. I think you are running a crippled version of the team dungeon with CSbwin. For example, I would bet that you won't get many merchandises for you coins in the shop area. Just guessing, though, maybe the duplicated items are irrelevant. But the designers usually don't take the time and effort of cloning without a good reason.

I have already Half-Implemented allowing the cloned
items in CSBuild. What I plan is to allow you to set
"Allow Cloned Objects" in the Editing Options. Then it
will load the dungeon without a whimper. When items
are viewed in the individual cells they are marked with "!!!!".
And I will provide a list of such items in the "Check|Objects"
function.

Moreover.......It marks all cloned objects so that I can have
CSBwin NOT actually delete the database entries for such
objects. That will save some grief if the designer is not as
careful as he says he is. Perhaps I worry needlessly.

I am using TeamDungeon as the test case and hope to
make it work as designed.

Excellent! We will be able then to edit these cloned items, right? (At least to see their settings and reproduce them)

I guessed you meant Kentaro, wrote him and already received an answer. AS feared, it was a negative one, so conversion of graphics.dat seems to be very tricky or nearly impossible without huge efforts.

Unfortunately I'll have to chance loosing some features (along with the graphics), because in DM I can only use either mouse or keyboard and I am not able to get sound working on my laptop - there'S no fun playing it like that and it considerably lessens chances of survival since I'm used to both mouse and keyboard. Pity, but that's how it is. Will have a look at your first-level-graphics anyway though

Regards, PitD

At 01(07,29) we find a door. It says the database
record index is 275. But there are only 170 entries
in the doors database. What am I to make of this?

CSBuild finds thirty such objects that point off into
the never-never land. It deletes them....what else
can be done?

Those, if i read it right, are a cloned series of mirrors

There are four mirros, one for each direction. It is cloned about 8 times to create a hall of mirrors set of rooms - no functionality, just saving actuators used for decoration

"conversion of graphics.dat seems to be very tricky or nearly impossible without huge efforts"
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see it so difficult:

*We "only" need to replace the compressed pictures inside the ST graphics.dat with plain pictures that I can rip from the PC graphics.dat

*We can leave all the rest "as it" (sound, texts and other data)

*According to Paul, we would need to calculate some scaling data also and include it.

- The structure of the ST graphics.dat is probably similar to the PC graphics.dat. I think I mapped it when using the graphreader. I'll have to find the sources to check it.

- I don't know the algorythms of compression used in ST. I'm not sure but I seem to remember there is one I know and another that I think is some kind of LZW. The sources of CSBwin are avalaible, so anyone with some C++ knowledge could create an extractor, by just copying the right code and with some fiddles.

-Basicly, I need to know the list of pictures stored in the ST graphics.dat and their order. With this data, I could probably replace each picture without even knowing the algorythm of compression.

PitD:
I looked in the misc tools forum and it looks like Rain is the man you want to talk to!

hi.
i thought about conversion way and i'll post here.
some parts may be supplement for post from Zyx.

i admit that DMExtract (written by rain`) will do almost all conversion works about image compress/decompress and data decompression.
in fact, DMExtract extracted almost(or all?) images from DM PC and CSB4Win(Atari ST version?). i just used DMExtract for work preview.
i also checked the its image compress function. modification for wall image is surely reflected in the game. (tested against CSB4Win)

if you try DMExtract with MAP files (written by Christophe), you can get the BMP files with friendly filename.
so, it may be easy to map the images between PC ver and CSB4Win.

however, "mapping" needs some technique can be done with hand work. (for example, compositing some wall images into one image.)
i think Zyx identify this step as "calculate some scaling data".

this is example plan to work with DMExtract (only images conversion).

MAP file with DMExtract:
DM PC version will be fit with "GRAPHICS.DAT DM PC v3.4 English.map"
CSB4Win version will be fit with "GRAPHICS.DAT DM Atari ST v1.1.map"
(just my guess. may be wrong for real case.)

I agree with you Kentaro.
I tried to used DMextract, then checked the differences between the 2 graphics.dat, then modified the pictures (unifying them when needed) but there is still a last problem hanging around. I sent a post to Rain in the Misc Forum about it.
We are very near to achieve conversion of the team graphics.

-----------------------------------
"calculate some scaling data".
According to Paul Stevens, the graphics.dat for ST contains information about the dimensions of the pictures once scaled.
Other graphics.dat don't, if I'm not wrong.
This is not about "compositing some wall images into one image", although I agree this is another problem.

Err. I'd very much like to help you since I brought this up, but I'm not a programmer unfortunately. If I can assist in testing anything or playing around with tools accessible I'd be happy to do so. Let me know.

Regards, PitD

hi, PitD.
i don't hold on current progress of this conversion, there'll be required tasks should be done.
probably one is the "mapping work".
Zyx also agreed it as a problem (task to be done or not).

work flow of this task...

----------
step1: extraction

images need to be compared themselves.
at least 3 graphics dat need to be extracted.
- DM PC ver
- CSB4win ver
- TeamDungeon for DM PC ver
DMExtract helps it very well!

----------
step2: check difference between DM PC and TeamDungeon images

if a image stored in DM PC is not different from TeamDungeon, it won't need to be converted.
this step may save the hand work cost against later steps.
just have their images' Binary Index as a list.

for example:
0000,
0002,
0003,
0008,
0023,
0026,
...
0667,
0668,

----------
step3: simply mapping

a image which exists in DM PC ver will exist in CSB4win ver.
some are stored in same bitmap dimension, others are stored in different bitmap dimension or stored as a group of image.
about "same" ones, there'll be no problem to copy.
about "different" ones, at least 2 variation exist
- simply different size. one case that both images have same aspect ratio.
- composited. source image (DM PC side) is a part of destination image (CSB4win side).

in any case, in this step, collect only simple infornation. what source image (DM PC side) is mapped into what destination image (CSB4win side).
it is better to have the table of Binary Index for identifying themselves.

for example:
0000,0000,
0002,0002,
0003,0003,
0008,0008,
0023,0023,
0026,0026,
...
0667,0529,
0668,0530,

----------
step4: detail mapping per image

i listed 4 patterns of image conversion method between DMPC ver and CSB4win ver.
- both images have same dimensions.
- both images have different dimensions. however, their images have same aspect ratio. simply stretching image.
- both images have different dimensions. however, you can leave it alone "as is".
- both images have different dimensions. and destination image contains the source image as a part of image.

for a result of this step, following information will be acquired.
- binary index of source image (DM PC side)
- binary index of destination image (CSB4win side)
- destination rectangle. source image will copy the entire image into the destination rectangle of destination image.

rectangle will have the next form: left, top, right, bottom
get width by: right - left
get height by: bottom - top

for example:
0000,0000,0,0,224,136,
0002,0002,0,0,105,161,
0003,0003,0,0,128,161,
0008,0008,0,0,67,29,
0023,0023,0,0,144,73,
0026,0026,0,0,256,87,
...
0097,0086,47,0,207,111,
0095,0086,4,0,64,111,
0096,0086,192,0,252,111,
...
0667,0529,0,0,128,94,
0668,0530,0,0,128,94,

----------

i showed the required steps of this task. their steps will be clear, but it seems to be very tough work.
if anyone is willing to try this task, please make sure Zyx or other members still don't work on these steps and... whether they require these steps or not.