Dungeon Master Forum

Something I've been fiddling around with... An "upgrade" of sorts to the look of DM/CSB, but still low resolution to keep the authentic feel. Also new changes to the interface and a whole bunch of special new features. All done in DSB.

Since having our first child, I've no time to work on this, so there's no release date -- could be years away -- but I've got bored of no-one else seeing it and wanted to share

I really like it, all the little details that give a little 3D feeling, especially on the health etc bars. Purists might say, the DM look is part of the experience (and I might even be one of them) but I'll definitely want to try your version when it's finished.

Thank you I completely agree that the whole DM experience is bound up with the design and aesthetic. The game is of its time and any deviation from that instantly makes it feel like something else. However I wanted to try and see if I could create a kind of 8bit colour 90s version, something more like how DM2 looks on the PC (minus the dorky cartoon style!).

I also wanted to fix a lot of the short comings of the original game, such as re-using the same dungeon graphics over and over for different items. In my version, every item has a unique dungeon graphic which matches its backpack icon. I've also changed the interface a bit -- whether it's an improvement or not remains to be seen... And different levels will now have a more unique look to give them a bit more unique atmosphere: no more boring grey walls throughout the entire dungeon!

I still have a long way to go, but I think the finished result would provide a fresh take on the DM experience while still retaining all the stuff that makes the original game so good.

Could this be a plug in to existing DSB games and future games.
Most of it is graphics, can you tell more about changes in the user interface ?

There's a lot of custom code for all the things I've changed, but yes it would be possible to use these graphics in DSB custom dungeons Just not for quite a while as there's still a lot of work to do.

Also, I should note that this isn't just a visual update for the game. There will be new sound effects and ambient music, plus options for different gameplay styles (eg: automap, RTCs spellbook system, etc). And a few changes to the dungeon here and there, just to keep you on your toes... The tweaks to the main interface are minor, but I think they do improve things a bit over the original DM interface.

My visual update to DM/CSB remains in low resolution. I'm slowly updating all the creatures through pixel editing, which is a huge undertaking. But I'm not sure how far to go with the changes.

Here's an example of the skeleton. Which do you prefer? The one that still remains close to the original skeleton in the middle, or the more interesting/realistic version on the right? (Note that the right hand one is not finished, it would be cleaned up a lot!)

Well I guess it depends on what you are aiming for: a little brushed up version of the original or full makeover (optically I mean, I know that work-wise it will be one).

Personally I find the right one really cool (your favourite too, if I read correctly between the lines ).

My aim is to provide a more immersive environment with an improved colour palette, so that everything feels a little more realistic, while still honouring the overall DM look and feel. So my gut instinct is actually to just re-shade/re-colour the existing creatures, rather than change them completely. But I do like that new skellie And maybe some monster revamps would be a nice surprise?

gambit, you nailed it with the skeleton on the right! If you are serious about wanting to repel oncoming hordes of rampaging heroes in your nice moss decorated dungeons, then this is the one to go with

The one on the right certainly looks a lot more eagerly anticipatory about sticking its sword into you .

Gambit37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:58 pm My visual update to DM/CSB remains in low resolution. I'm slowly updating all the creatures through pixel editing, which is a huge undertaking. But I'm not sure how far to go with the changes.

Here's an example of the skeleton. Which do you prefer? The one that still remains close to the original skeleton in the middle, or the more interesting/realistic version on the right? (Note that the right hand one is not finished, it would be cleaned up a lot!)

I even like the feet of the skeleton on the right. Thanks for sharing your efforts, Gambit.
Enjoy your family. You're going through some wonderful years of life.

P.S. I still prefer the original floor tiling, but would give that up for the creature update.

Thanks Masterwuuf! I might revert to the original floor design, it does solve a few problems with visual anomalies when items are placed on the floor.

I'm curious about the logistics of using a smaller shield, in comparison to the much larger (and interesting) shield.
Do you have to constantly be pixel-conscious, or is there even a limit to how much information is allowed in a certain amount of room, when bringing the actual 'square' used to draw these animated pictures from the program files to the monitor?

Also wanted to mention that I like the new and improved screamer. I surely would be the last person to drag you away from your family. I do hope you find time in the future to continue this project. Hey, you're still young. Who needs SLEEP???

It seems to be a consensus but for what it's worth I prefer the skeleton on the right too.

It also reminds me how underwhelming the DM skeletons are. Most other monsters in DM, even though they are low resolution, have a lot more charm and/or realism.

MasterWuuf wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:03 pm I'm curious about the logistics of using a smaller shield, in comparison to the much larger (and interesting) shield.

For this specific image, it's pretty simple: the skeleton image that I'm using as a base has a really big shield already, but it's not the right design for DM, so I need a really big shield to cover up the other one!

MasterWuuf wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:03 pmDo you have to constantly be pixel-conscious, or is there even a limit to how much information is allowed in a certain amount of room, when bringing the actual 'square' used to draw these animated pictures from the program files to the monitor?

No creature can be bigger than the front view of a door that's two steps away from the party, otherwise you'll see it overlap the door. Similarly, no creature can be bigger than the wall graphic that obscures the row of tiles behind. In practice, anything bigger than the dragon is likely to have issues with overlapping the walls/doors.

Thanks for the information, Gambit.

Do you also plan, eventually, to make the dragon into an actual dragon?
Tyrana-Rex, or whatever her name is, is an odd looking dragon. My humble opinion, which of course is right. Oops.

oh_brother wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:47 pm It also reminds me how underwhelming the DM skeletons are. Most other monsters in DM, even though they are low resolution, have a lot more charm and/or realism.

I agree with you. The shields they carry also seem a little underwhelming, as well.
I really like the new and improved shield that Gambit has shared.

Which do you prefer, the original chaotic floor design (left), or the new tiled version (right)?

MasterWuuf wrote: ↑Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:48 pm Do you also plan, eventually, to make the dragon into an actual dragon?

Probably not. The DM dragon is iconic, even if it does look more like a dinosaur. The colours and shading will be improved, but the design will most likely stay the same.

The original.....without a doubt.

Yeah me too, though I can't even say why, exactly. But somehow the tiled version totally kills the perspective and atmosphere.

Gambit37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:01 pm The DM dragon is iconic, even if it does look more like a dinosaur.

I agree, the dragon is there to torture the adventurers that dare enter the dragon's den...giving it wings where it has zero chance to fly seems more like torture for the dragon.

I also think the traditional floor type seems the better one to go with. Having tiles everywhere seems a tad clinical.

I like this artwork and color tones. Maybe that thing about enhancing (modifying?) the original is to find a good balance whether it is still DM or not. The DM floor is iconic, if you change it, IMO it does not feel DM anymore.
I personally see the Screamers more like mushrooms than small trees. The original skeleton is definitively too straight, so the 3rd one offers a good standing position (but isn't his shield too big ?)

Interesting that people prefer the original floor. I suspect nostalgia is at play here. One of the reasons I prefer the tiled version is that it unifies the entire architecture much better. The original designs always struck me as rather odd: you have these perfect edged blocks making up the walls that seem to float on top of some random crazing paving. And then perfect edges pits and pads also in conflict with that crazy floor. The two styles don't match at all. So I guess there's something of what you're all used to that's influencing your choice here... I'll take this preference on board anyway

Sphenx wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:05 pmThe DM floor is iconic, if you change it, IMO it does not feel DM anymore.

So this is perhaps more the point. Deviating too much from the original is removing too much of its essence.

Sphenx wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:05 pmI personally see the Screamers more like mushrooms than small trees.

I did try a more mushroom like version but I honestly didn't like it, it was too far away from the original screamer.

Sphenx wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 8:05 pm The original skeleton is definitively too straight, so the 3rd one offers a good standing position (but isn't his shield too big ?)

As noted above, the only reason the shield is so big is to cover up a different shield underneath on the base image that I got from a 3D site. However, a nice side effect is that the shield at that size is very close to DMs size for the dungeon view of the round shield. Anyway, I'm probably not using that skeleton, I have a slightly different plan now...

Nostalgia is proabbly at play in these preferences,as is the desire to retain the essence of DM. But for me it goes beyond that. The uniformity of the bricks on all 4 surfaces in the new version reminds me of a chute, rather than a tunnel.
Also, I seem to remmeber Jan saying years ago that those type of ceiling blocks would not work architecturally - they don't have support.

I often wonder if it's a mistake to start showing things to people... so many opinions

Every dungeon crawler has taken liberties with what looks good vs. what would actually work structurally. If you look at Captive, EOB, even Legend of Grimrock, they all have discrete ceiling blocks in their tiles that simply could not work in the real world. DM avoided the issue by having a completely bland ceiling of random pixels, so I wanted to improve that. I'm not that concerned about complete realism, just what looks good to me personally.

I should stress that this is a creative update to DM to suit my own preferences. Some of you probably won't like all the changes. I'm OK with that.

Gambit37 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 07, 2020 10:24 pm I should stress that this is a creative update to DM to suit my own preferences.

How dare you!
Lord Chaos is gonna want to hear about this. Expect an army of gigglers to appear at your house to steal your work soon. A dragon might accompany them...if Masterwuuf hasn't killed every one of them with gold coins again.

I definitely prefer the original flooring. The other one looks too...I dunno...rigid? Structured? Boring? I'm not sure. And you say it's weird that it's chaotic...but the entire dungeon has been warped and twisted by a being with chaos in its very name, so I don't think that's too much of a surprise .

Gambit37 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:00 pm I often wonder if it's a mistake to start showing things to people... so many opinions

That can indeed become a problem when you do that too early in your process. It can make quite a dent in your creativity flow. But I think you got your bases covered:

I should stress that this is a creative update to DM to suit my own preferences. Some of you probably won't like all the changes. I'm OK with that.

There are always details some people won't like, and others dislike something else... But that's true for the original too and most probably every other game ever made. But judging from what we glimpsed so far I'm sure your game will look really cool. The pictures show a certain vibe.