Well, hello all...
First, I have to thanks Christophe for creating such a good site, and Paul for giving us the opportunity to play these great games again, on Windows...
So, I'd like to know what kind of spells you would like to see added to this game? As Paul generously gave us access to the source code, I have in mind to try adding some new spells, like :
* Teleport : teleport the group in a place previously designed as the receptacle (4 destination possible, one per character), even if not on the same level. The amount of Mana required will be proportional to the distance, of course!
* Receptacle : see above...
* Heal : same as the potion, but no more fumbling in the inventory while trying to flee the oponent... (will cost twice as much, but you can't have everything, huh?). Can be extended to nearly every potion... This could make Priest levels a little more important, no?
* Seal : creates a temporary wall...
* Mane : create food (barely nourrishing, just to avoid dying)
* Bless : add some points to the Luck hidden attribute...
* Curse : lower the opponent's Luck attribute...
* Uncurse : pretty obvious... Could be proportional to weight of objet, maybe...
* Alter Time : slows the flow of time for everything except the group's moves.
* Dream : the immaterial being detachs itself from the group. No action could be made (opening doors, for instance), like at the start of the game. Monsters can be passed through, and the time is frozen. At the end of the spell, the being is of course returned to the group (a wonderful scout!, but very costly in mana).
* Equilibrum : Stamina and Mana are (more or less) levelled, depending on the strength of the spell...
* Suffer : the opponent shares your sufferings. Very short spell, and lasting one blow only.
Well, a lot of spells could be added...
What do you think?
(Paul : do you think it can be made?)
Anyone interessed in adding spells?
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Paul Stevens
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Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Certainly. Most might be easy. A couple might take a
little cleverness. I am willing to provide advice but I have
not decided if it is a good idea. Doing this is definitely a
good way to learn how the game works.
little cleverness. I am willing to provide advice but I have
not decided if it is a good idea. Doing this is definitely a
good way to learn how the game works.
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Christopher
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
I came up with some spells awhile ago. Here they are:
Ice Bolt: Vi Ir, Wizard spell, defend against it with Anti Magic
Kath Bomb (lightning potion): Oh Kath Neta, Priest spell, defend against it with Anti Fire (?)
Poison Blob (same spell Poison Slime casts): Ya Ven, Wizard spell, defend against it with Vitality (?)
Aura of Attribute Damage: Zo Gor Sar, aura around a monster (or champions) which decreases all secondary attributes. Works like the auras in DM2 but affects all the attributes. Wizard spell, no way to defend
Theft: Des Ew Ros, steals an item from a monster (or champion) (must have an empty hand), Priest and Ninja spell, defend against it with Dexterity and Anti Magic
Freeze Life: Vi Ir Sar, Freeze monsters (or champions) (same as magic box or Spiral Staff), Priest spell.
Pew Bomb (confusion gas): Oh Gor, Causes monster to retreat, defend against it with Wisdom, Priest spell.
Lacouture, you need to assign some magic symbols with those spells. They all sound good except I don't like the teleport one because it will make the Techshield useless.
I can think of more spells if you want to know them.
Ice Bolt: Vi Ir, Wizard spell, defend against it with Anti Magic
Kath Bomb (lightning potion): Oh Kath Neta, Priest spell, defend against it with Anti Fire (?)
Poison Blob (same spell Poison Slime casts): Ya Ven, Wizard spell, defend against it with Vitality (?)
Aura of Attribute Damage: Zo Gor Sar, aura around a monster (or champions) which decreases all secondary attributes. Works like the auras in DM2 but affects all the attributes. Wizard spell, no way to defend
Theft: Des Ew Ros, steals an item from a monster (or champion) (must have an empty hand), Priest and Ninja spell, defend against it with Dexterity and Anti Magic
Freeze Life: Vi Ir Sar, Freeze monsters (or champions) (same as magic box or Spiral Staff), Priest spell.
Pew Bomb (confusion gas): Oh Gor, Causes monster to retreat, defend against it with Wisdom, Priest spell.
Lacouture, you need to assign some magic symbols with those spells. They all sound good except I don't like the teleport one because it will make the Techshield useless.
I can think of more spells if you want to know them.
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Christopher
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
If these spells are only for adding to DM1 then I suggest you work on adding the spells from DM2 first. I always wanted to play DM1 with attack and guard minions. Oh, and the Freeze Life would be defended against with Anti Magic. After a second look at the spells listed, I think the Alter Time spell is too powerful, even more so if combined with an Accelerate Party spell.
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D. Lacouture
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Paul : That would be great! And additionnal spells can be an option, too...
Thus, those willing to do it the old way won't be tempted by an occasionnal cast of a forbidden spell...
I'll try the easy ones (Heal, Bless, Curse...) soon, to understand the code...
Christopher : well, as I never played DM2 (got stuck to Atari for some time, then got to High School... no more time to play!), I didn't know it featured new spells... Guess I'll have a look...
What's this shield you're talking about, by the way?
Thus, those willing to do it the old way won't be tempted by an occasionnal cast of a forbidden spell...
I'll try the easy ones (Heal, Bless, Curse...) soon, to understand the code...
Christopher : well, as I never played DM2 (got stuck to Atari for some time, then got to High School... no more time to play!), I didn't know it featured new spells... Guess I'll have a look...
What's this shield you're talking about, by the way?
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Wow new spell huh?..Well I guess it's time to get that brain of mine working again.
*A loud rusty sound is made*
Well for now how about a spell that creates a floor of fire(or spikes,ice, whatever comes first)? it can be used to keep those tough-as-nails monsters away for a certain amount of time.the drawback would be just like the pits where it doesn't affect flying creatures.
There's a trap spell that on the top of my head but i'm gonna tinker with the idea some more until I figure out a weakness for it.I'll let you know in the mean time.
*A loud rusty sound is made*
Well for now how about a spell that creates a floor of fire(or spikes,ice, whatever comes first)? it can be used to keep those tough-as-nails monsters away for a certain amount of time.the drawback would be just like the pits where it doesn't affect flying creatures.
There's a trap spell that on the top of my head but i'm gonna tinker with the idea some more until I figure out a weakness for it.I'll let you know in the mean time.
Meaningless quote:
Words cannot have meaning unless they're given a meaning, words cannot benifit or harm unless they are allowed to.
Words cannot have meaning unless they're given a meaning, words cannot benifit or harm unless they are allowed to.
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Christopher
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Techshield is available in DM2 and allows you to teleport. As for the floor of fire ect., would it affect Vexirks or Lord Chaos or Couatls? They float but they appear very close to the ground (therefore would seemingly be affected by a spiked floor).
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Gambit37
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Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Gaaah....
<purist>Can't you just leave this classic game alone? There's hundreds of games out there that have the spells you're talking about, why not go and play those?</purist>
And I'm not sure about the comment "As Paul generously gave us access to the source code...". The modified source code that Paul has made available is interesting to see, and doubtless is a fine piece of work. But the original game that it is based upon is still the intellectual property of the original creators, so in that sense it's not really Paul's to give away.... if Paul had programmed a clone from scratch (like George has done with RTC) it would be an entirely different matter.
Don't get me wrong, I love Dungeon Master, and am as enthusiastic about it as most of the rest of you. I just like the original game to be remembered as it was....
<purist>Can't you just leave this classic game alone? There's hundreds of games out there that have the spells you're talking about, why not go and play those?</purist>
And I'm not sure about the comment "As Paul generously gave us access to the source code...". The modified source code that Paul has made available is interesting to see, and doubtless is a fine piece of work. But the original game that it is based upon is still the intellectual property of the original creators, so in that sense it's not really Paul's to give away.... if Paul had programmed a clone from scratch (like George has done with RTC) it would be an entirely different matter.
Don't get me wrong, I love Dungeon Master, and am as enthusiastic about it as most of the rest of you. I just like the original game to be remembered as it was....
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Christopher
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Hmm, well, at any rate, I wouldn't mind having some new spells for my new dungeons.
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Sophia
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Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
For what it's worth, I'm with Gambit.
About the only thing that I'd feel right about adding without spoiling the "pureness" of the game is a spell to create ful bombs. Probably FUL GOR, that seems to be what the manual hints at.
Even then, I probably wouldn't use it much. I mean, who wants to waste the flasks?
About the only thing that I'd feel right about adding without spoiling the "pureness" of the game is a spell to create ful bombs. Probably FUL GOR, that seems to be what the manual hints at.
Even then, I probably wouldn't use it much. I mean, who wants to waste the flasks?
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
The original game will ALWAYS be remembered for how it was. It is 17 years old, and if creating new spells adds variety for older players or more interest to others then 'I'm all for it'. You don't HAVE to play any modified versions. Well that's exactly what you do when you download a new dungeon or play CSB4WIN, and nobody complains about that. Any new spells that can or may be added should be a separate game though, or file, to distinguish between the two (ie the 'original'). Gambit and Sophia, some of us have been playing this for them 17 years and have done just about everything possible with the game with all the characters. I will always remember the original DM and CSB but new things can become of this, spells and ideas that may supplement the creativity of dungeon designers. I believe this to be important. But you still have your choice (play them or don't). Don't deny others theirs if they want it.
Anyway as to ideas for new spells, my mind is casted back to Bane of the Cosmic Forge (a fine game) with its array of offensive spells. On the whole DM lacks this, with fire ball being the choice of most. So maybe something like firestorm, acid cloud, iceball, or psionic blast for instance; with the power of the original fireball spell reduced so we have new tactics to fight monsters.
Anyway as to ideas for new spells, my mind is casted back to Bane of the Cosmic Forge (a fine game) with its array of offensive spells. On the whole DM lacks this, with fire ball being the choice of most. So maybe something like firestorm, acid cloud, iceball, or psionic blast for instance; with the power of the original fireball spell reduced so we have new tactics to fight monsters.
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Oh and while I am at it, would it be possible to create new weapons, ie ninja only ones? (such as an attack from a weapon). This will give the ninja a little more use apart from its current role as a device just to improve stats.
I admit I wouldn't understand one end of the source code from the other and do not know if this is possible, but I am more than willing to develop new ideas and spells, with research, if there is interest and it is possible.
PS I mentioned the classic game Bane earlier, has anybody else played this?
I admit I wouldn't understand one end of the source code from the other and do not know if this is possible, but I am more than willing to develop new ideas and spells, with research, if there is interest and it is possible.
PS I mentioned the classic game Bane earlier, has anybody else played this?
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Sophia
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Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
I was 7 years old when I first played DM, soon after it first came out... I didn't take the controls myself much in those days but I did sometimes, I liked to watch my dad play as well... so I can relate to having played it a long time, but as for what you're saying about doing everything possible with the game-- if you think you have truly exhausted the potential of DM, maybe it's time to find a new game? Why try to shoehorn new features into it?
There's a difference between playing a new dungeon-- which is the same basic game mechanic in a brand new environment-- and changing the very structure of that game mechanic.
I like to play new dungeons, don't get me wrong, but I like to play them because they feel like DM, except the terrain I'm exploring is brand new, so it's like the game of DM is new all over again. That, to me, is the fun of new dungeons-- it's like if what was hinted at by CSB being expansion pack #1 came true, and there were suddenly lots and lots of expansion packs.
But, you see, I like the because they DO feel like DM, only with a new dungeon for me to explore. If you start putting in all sorts of additions, it'll be more like some random game with a few DM graphics... it won't have that feel any more.
And Gambit had another good point. You talk about not denying other people their choice, but strictly speaking there is no choice, if you look at the legality of it. I'm not going to harp on anyone for "Warez" or whatever because I'm sure I and everyone else here who play CSB4Win and RTC and all the others have at least one and probably more legit paid copies of DM lying around from back in the day... but it's something to consider when you get into ever deeper levels of hacking into the inner workings of someone else's intellectual property.
There's a difference between playing a new dungeon-- which is the same basic game mechanic in a brand new environment-- and changing the very structure of that game mechanic.
I like to play new dungeons, don't get me wrong, but I like to play them because they feel like DM, except the terrain I'm exploring is brand new, so it's like the game of DM is new all over again. That, to me, is the fun of new dungeons-- it's like if what was hinted at by CSB being expansion pack #1 came true, and there were suddenly lots and lots of expansion packs.
But, you see, I like the because they DO feel like DM, only with a new dungeon for me to explore. If you start putting in all sorts of additions, it'll be more like some random game with a few DM graphics... it won't have that feel any more.
And Gambit had another good point. You talk about not denying other people their choice, but strictly speaking there is no choice, if you look at the legality of it. I'm not going to harp on anyone for "Warez" or whatever because I'm sure I and everyone else here who play CSB4Win and RTC and all the others have at least one and probably more legit paid copies of DM lying around from back in the day... but it's something to consider when you get into ever deeper levels of hacking into the inner workings of someone else's intellectual property.
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
I believe I have 'truly exhausted' the original DM dungeon (heck, I can do it in an hour using Gando) but not the potential of its structure. Yes you can create new dungeons, with the same old feel and a lot of them are very enjoyable to play but I believe that some of us may be able to gain more from development. You talk in the respect that if the game is changed that there is no going back to the original, but of course there is: that is what choice is about. People (including myself) will be making new dungeons on the original format for a long time to come, but some of us would like something new. Yes there is a difference between playing a new dungeon, and with a new engine, that is the whole point for some of us. But it won't take over from the original, it is just a variation. You could play one format, another or both. Everybody is happy. OK?!!
As for the 'legality' of this, I am not sure where the owner of this site stands as regards to the right to allow the download of original work. But if you do have an original copy you are free to do what the heck you like with it as far as altering it goes (dungeon.dat files etc). And I believe that you can 'share' these files as long as each person who recieves a file has an original copy too (as they must to be able to play the thing). Having it on a web page is a different matter though!
I could move on to another game, but I like DM and the new dungeons, I believe there is still a lot to be extracted from this game. I am playing a new dungeon now (I hope I paused the game!) but there is only so much you can do within the limits of the engine without being repetetive. I don't know how many times you have played this game but I bet I have played it a hundred times more than you have (maybe!) and feel that a few more spells for us oldies and designers may just benefit us!
As for the 'legality' of this, I am not sure where the owner of this site stands as regards to the right to allow the download of original work. But if you do have an original copy you are free to do what the heck you like with it as far as altering it goes (dungeon.dat files etc). And I believe that you can 'share' these files as long as each person who recieves a file has an original copy too (as they must to be able to play the thing). Having it on a web page is a different matter though!
I could move on to another game, but I like DM and the new dungeons, I believe there is still a lot to be extracted from this game. I am playing a new dungeon now (I hope I paused the game!) but there is only so much you can do within the limits of the engine without being repetetive. I don't know how many times you have played this game but I bet I have played it a hundred times more than you have (maybe!) and feel that a few more spells for us oldies and designers may just benefit us!
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Seoub
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
I wish all of "final fantasy" spells !!!
and what do you think about Summoning ???
it is possible to program Summons of skeletons as an exemple, who can attack the others monsters ???
and what do you think about Summoning ???
it is possible to program Summons of skeletons as an exemple, who can attack the others monsters ???
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Christopher
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Man, if people have such a big problem with new spells, they probably wouldn't want new champions like I have been making either. Do you people really think it is such a big deal to not make new spells? As Paul pointed out, you don't have to play any new versions. Besides, this post, if considered a bad idea, can at least be fun for others, so they can come up with some spells. If it's a waste of time then don't bother. Otherwise, let us have some fun.
New spell for monsters only (they need some advantage with all these new hero spells) Double Champion Weight: Ya Gor Sar, cast as a projectile, the target hit has doube weight of current items they possess. This can only be cured by an uncurse spell (Des Bro Neta?). Accelerate Party spell won't work until all champions are cured. (I guess it doesn't need spell symbols if it is a monster only spell.)
As for all the final fantasy spells... I don't think so. I don't know how many there are, but I imagine there are way too many to include (provided their magic symbols are logical for the spells). Some perhaps.
New weapons would be nice, esp. magical ones that can cast some of the new spells.
New spell for monsters only (they need some advantage with all these new hero spells) Double Champion Weight: Ya Gor Sar, cast as a projectile, the target hit has doube weight of current items they possess. This can only be cured by an uncurse spell (Des Bro Neta?). Accelerate Party spell won't work until all champions are cured. (I guess it doesn't need spell symbols if it is a monster only spell.)
As for all the final fantasy spells... I don't think so. I don't know how many there are, but I imagine there are way too many to include (provided their magic symbols are logical for the spells). Some perhaps.
New weapons would be nice, esp. magical ones that can cast some of the new spells.
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Summoning would be kind of wierd plus if I know Final fantasy spells the way they are executed is a little too much(eyecandy anyone?) plus they'll take up too much time in casting just to do damage (or heal or whatever comes first).
doen't seem too fitting for dm's case.If there's a way around that then I guess it could be done.
doen't seem too fitting for dm's case.If there's a way around that then I guess it could be done.
Meaningless quote:
Words cannot have meaning unless they're given a meaning, words cannot benifit or harm unless they are allowed to.
Words cannot have meaning unless they're given a meaning, words cannot benifit or harm unless they are allowed to.
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D. Lacouture
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Gambit, Sophia : well, I played DM like a nut when I was between 10 and 15... I still know each level map, and last time I played was 10 years ago... I even tried every spell combinaison (yep, the whole 258)...
I found the number of spells quite low, regarding the quality of the game... Some spells were redondant (Light and Torch, for example), and some were outright missing (Heal being the most obvious).
Then, first thought that hit me when I tried CSB was "Damn, could you believe they didn't even add a single spell?" I was feeling cheated, because the game I loved seemed stuck forever, even through its sequel...
Even more because it was so much harder, and there was nothing new helping us.
I didn't even tried DM2...
Now, technically speaking, I think that CSB4win already broke the intellectual property a long time ago, as changes (subtle ones, I agree) were made to the original code, and as it's freely distributed now (as are the original games, by the way)...
Well, let's talk about the engine now. I'd certainly like to see some changes, like giving monsters more powers and brains... Never laughed about a Beholder casting "Zo" on you? You know what I mean...
Never wondered why humanoid creatures, like skeletons or knights, never close doors on you (well, that would mean they can open them too, but I think they should be able to)...
Why these damn shields were nearly useless?
Why obvious two-handed weapons (axe, swords...) still take only one?
Why couldn't we use both hands for actions? (that sure would make Ninja skills useful, and would allow use of shields...)
Well, let's change this discussion to "what would you like to add to DM and CSB?".
(Apart from graphical changes, of course! So, new features could be easily added without altering the graphics file)
I found the number of spells quite low, regarding the quality of the game... Some spells were redondant (Light and Torch, for example), and some were outright missing (Heal being the most obvious).
Then, first thought that hit me when I tried CSB was "Damn, could you believe they didn't even add a single spell?" I was feeling cheated, because the game I loved seemed stuck forever, even through its sequel...
Even more because it was so much harder, and there was nothing new helping us.
I didn't even tried DM2...
Now, technically speaking, I think that CSB4win already broke the intellectual property a long time ago, as changes (subtle ones, I agree) were made to the original code, and as it's freely distributed now (as are the original games, by the way)...
Well, let's talk about the engine now. I'd certainly like to see some changes, like giving monsters more powers and brains... Never laughed about a Beholder casting "Zo" on you? You know what I mean...
Never wondered why humanoid creatures, like skeletons or knights, never close doors on you (well, that would mean they can open them too, but I think they should be able to)...
Why these damn shields were nearly useless?
Why obvious two-handed weapons (axe, swords...) still take only one?
Why couldn't we use both hands for actions? (that sure would make Ninja skills useful, and would allow use of shields...)
Well, let's change this discussion to "what would you like to add to DM and CSB?".
(Apart from graphical changes, of course! So, new features could be easily added without altering the graphics file)
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Except that there ARE new spells in CSB. The magic map spells which are missing in DM...
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Gambit37
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Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
He he... it's always good to get a discussion going.
PaulH is right to a point--there is an element af choice to whether or not we play a modified version of DM.
I have to say that I don't understand why anyone would play any one single game quite so much as you PaulH! I love DM as much as the next man, but I would be bored out of my skull to play it that many times. I certainly wouldn't want to lose half my life playing the same game again and again. I guess this is the crux of your argument--you've played it so many times, you want some new features to make it different and interesting. I have a different view--go and play something else!
I am in defence of DM to be left alone, because I recognise the great lengths FTL went to, to create a game of originality and genius. It effectively defined a new genre, and was much copied by many later games; many of these games do in fact contain the features you are discussing. Perhaps I have more reason to feel this way than most, as you will soon come to appreciate.
<pedant>Oh, and DM has been around for 15 years, not 17... December 1987 was the first Atari ST release.</pedant>
PaulH is right to a point--there is an element af choice to whether or not we play a modified version of DM.
I have to say that I don't understand why anyone would play any one single game quite so much as you PaulH! I love DM as much as the next man, but I would be bored out of my skull to play it that many times. I certainly wouldn't want to lose half my life playing the same game again and again. I guess this is the crux of your argument--you've played it so many times, you want some new features to make it different and interesting. I have a different view--go and play something else!
I am in defence of DM to be left alone, because I recognise the great lengths FTL went to, to create a game of originality and genius. It effectively defined a new genre, and was much copied by many later games; many of these games do in fact contain the features you are discussing. Perhaps I have more reason to feel this way than most, as you will soon come to appreciate.
<pedant>Oh, and DM has been around for 15 years, not 17... December 1987 was the first Atari ST release.</pedant>
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D. Lacouture
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Gambit : well, for my part, I just never found any DM clone worthy enough to play for more than 2 hours... They just lack some of what made DM so cool : Light, food and water, for instance, were quite nonexistant in those, helas... I think that's why there is so much DM fan around.
Let me say that I'm not talking about adding new spells in DM's original dungeon (well, those willing to try it with some improvements will be free to do it). I mainly think about the new dungeons... They would feel more like some really improved sequels than just new layouts. This way, new mind-storming puzzles could be added, too...
Let me say that I'm not talking about adding new spells in DM's original dungeon (well, those willing to try it with some improvements will be free to do it). I mainly think about the new dungeons... They would feel more like some really improved sequels than just new layouts. This way, new mind-storming puzzles could be added, too...
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Gambit37
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Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
I guess you haven't played RTC then.... this is as close as you'll get to a full clone of DM and CSB that actually FEELS right:
http://www.ragingmole.com/RTC
http://www.ragingmole.com/RTC
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
I have not lost half my life playing DM, just a third of it... Seriously though, even if you only play it a few times a year for 17 (oops 15, er well that'll be 14 actually with a few months if you are correct) you will exhaust it quickly. I certainly don't spend hours every day playing DM but I have been there since the very 1st day and am an accomplished player.
'Go play something else'. What else? This 'style' of RPG is my favourite game and I rarely play anything else. I have completed the Eye of the Beholder series, Bane, Black Crypt and a host of others, but the flexibilty of DM (enhanced many times now by the editors) brings me back. I went for years with out playing it, because I got bored (!), then I found this site and new things to do. New dungeons, new characters, the records etc etc which rekindles your interest. I don't believe you can do this with other games, so for me there is not much else to play. I still play Bane as this game is vast, and I really want to find an Excalibur, but that's about it. Newer games use the vast advances in computer technology that we have to day and do not always capture the feel of the older style games.
"Variety is the spice of life"
>Perhaps I have more reason to feel this way than most, as you will soon come to appreciate<
Well, I maybe would appreciate, so tell us! FTL created a game, in its time, which was unparalleled, a work of art that will always be in the hall of fame. If I was on the team, and made a history defining game and learnt that 16 years on, whatever, that people were evolving it and still gaining pleasure from it I would be pretty chuffed. Because the same can't be said of other games that have just faded away of this genre.
'Go play something else'. What else? This 'style' of RPG is my favourite game and I rarely play anything else. I have completed the Eye of the Beholder series, Bane, Black Crypt and a host of others, but the flexibilty of DM (enhanced many times now by the editors) brings me back. I went for years with out playing it, because I got bored (!), then I found this site and new things to do. New dungeons, new characters, the records etc etc which rekindles your interest. I don't believe you can do this with other games, so for me there is not much else to play. I still play Bane as this game is vast, and I really want to find an Excalibur, but that's about it. Newer games use the vast advances in computer technology that we have to day and do not always capture the feel of the older style games.
"Variety is the spice of life"
>Perhaps I have more reason to feel this way than most, as you will soon come to appreciate<
Well, I maybe would appreciate, so tell us! FTL created a game, in its time, which was unparalleled, a work of art that will always be in the hall of fame. If I was on the team, and made a history defining game and learnt that 16 years on, whatever, that people were evolving it and still gaining pleasure from it I would be pretty chuffed. Because the same can't be said of other games that have just faded away of this genre.
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D. Lacouture
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Oh, just got an idea (further in heresy, I'm afraid) : would it be interesting to use a dynamic engine? Based on, say, a COM/DCOM tech., this way spells, objects and monsters could be added easily, without recompilation of the main engine...
New dungeons will bring their own objects and spells and monsters...
New dungeons will bring their own objects and spells and monsters...
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
There is some point in both, Gambit and PaulH.
To keep things alive, there must always be a balance between the old and the new, between tradition and creativity.
Gambit always resents any change regarding DM, so Gambit is kinda traditionalist DM-player. As Gambit points out, DM is not only the intelectual property of FTL, far more, it is a piece of originality and genius. So if someone intends to twist it's functionality, the ideas of this someone should be worthy to the genius of FTL. Talking about new spells this means, that we have to keep in mind, that there are limited resources in good ol' DM because there is only a limited number of runes (6/6/6), thus we should not waste them. If we use all suggestions made here, the 233 remaining spell "slots" will be used up more quickly, than anyone would guess now, so adding silly and superflous spells will hinder the use of more intelligent ones that might come up later, and while it may give some people a cool feeling to cast ice bolts instead of fireballs, I personally do not care whether I shoot monsters with blue, green, red, round, edged or glittering missiles, or whether one of them does one point of damage more or less, for this is eye candy only, but very dull one.
What I want is spells, that fit into the context and story of DM, for I believe, that there is very deep and creative thought in it. That's why I resent any "import" spells from other games and worlds, for they would spoil the system of magic set up by FTL. The only spells that would fit in here, are, of course, those of DM2. These spells belong to the world of DM, so rune combinations that are used in DM2for the new spells there should not be used for something else (and of course the 4 new map spells of CSB should also persist).
So if you want to expand DM by the means of integrating new spells, please have a look upon DM2 first. There are plenty of spells, enough to keep anyone starting this project busy for quite a while, and if you still feel the need to add further spells, please use the remaining combinations, and, if you actually use those remaning combinations, place only spells there that are actually connected to the meaning of the runes used.
To keep things alive, there must always be a balance between the old and the new, between tradition and creativity.
Gambit always resents any change regarding DM, so Gambit is kinda traditionalist DM-player. As Gambit points out, DM is not only the intelectual property of FTL, far more, it is a piece of originality and genius. So if someone intends to twist it's functionality, the ideas of this someone should be worthy to the genius of FTL. Talking about new spells this means, that we have to keep in mind, that there are limited resources in good ol' DM because there is only a limited number of runes (6/6/6), thus we should not waste them. If we use all suggestions made here, the 233 remaining spell "slots" will be used up more quickly, than anyone would guess now, so adding silly and superflous spells will hinder the use of more intelligent ones that might come up later, and while it may give some people a cool feeling to cast ice bolts instead of fireballs, I personally do not care whether I shoot monsters with blue, green, red, round, edged or glittering missiles, or whether one of them does one point of damage more or less, for this is eye candy only, but very dull one.
What I want is spells, that fit into the context and story of DM, for I believe, that there is very deep and creative thought in it. That's why I resent any "import" spells from other games and worlds, for they would spoil the system of magic set up by FTL. The only spells that would fit in here, are, of course, those of DM2. These spells belong to the world of DM, so rune combinations that are used in DM2for the new spells there should not be used for something else (and of course the 4 new map spells of CSB should also persist).
So if you want to expand DM by the means of integrating new spells, please have a look upon DM2 first. There are plenty of spells, enough to keep anyone starting this project busy for quite a while, and if you still feel the need to add further spells, please use the remaining combinations, and, if you actually use those remaning combinations, place only spells there that are actually connected to the meaning of the runes used.
Parting is all we know from Heaven, and all we need of hell.
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Gambit37
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Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Lol!! He he, I like that: "Gambit always resents any change regarding DM, so Gambit is kinda traditionalist DM-player". Not far from the truth.
I'd agree that I am the traditionalist player you mention, but I wouldn't say I always resent changes to DM. There's plenty that has changed with DM that I think is cool: CSB for Win, RTC, hard-disk installable, multiple save games, etc... I just don't agree with what appears to be whimsy: adding stuff to DM for the sake of it just because the almost-source code is available.
PaulH also hits the nail on the head with this phrase:
How about if you wrote, directed, produced and released a film that got rave reviews and went down in history, then in ten years time I came along having stolen your original print, and added a whole bunch of stuff that destroyed the sense of the original film. I think you'd be pretty annoyed, I know I would! Surely it's better for everyone if I invest my energy creating something new, rather than just modifying your work?
I believe that's really what this discussion is about; being creative in an original and unique way.
I'd agree that I am the traditionalist player you mention, but I wouldn't say I always resent changes to DM. There's plenty that has changed with DM that I think is cool: CSB for Win, RTC, hard-disk installable, multiple save games, etc... I just don't agree with what appears to be whimsy: adding stuff to DM for the sake of it just because the almost-source code is available.
PaulH also hits the nail on the head with this phrase:
You're absolutely right, I would feel the same way, and it's certainly the case that those FTL members who are aware of DMs current popularity are as chuffed as you say. But I'm not sure they would be as chuffed to see it pulled apart and changed into what a few fans might think of as "better".If I was on the team, and made a history defining game and learnt that 16 years on, whatever, that people were evolving it and still gaining pleasure from it I would be pretty chuffed. Because the same can't be said of other games that have just faded away of this genre.
How about if you wrote, directed, produced and released a film that got rave reviews and went down in history, then in ten years time I came along having stolen your original print, and added a whole bunch of stuff that destroyed the sense of the original film. I think you'd be pretty annoyed, I know I would! Surely it's better for everyone if I invest my energy creating something new, rather than just modifying your work?
I believe that's really what this discussion is about; being creative in an original and unique way.
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Sophia
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Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Lunever, I agree with what you said, but unfortunately, even then you're missing half the truth.
You assume spells would be a global addition. They wouldn't. At most, the spells would be added to a single dungeon or a few dungeons, to give people the choice-- if the new spells are added straight to RTC or CSB4Win or whatever, that takes away the element of choice for those like myself and Gambit who would opt not to use them.
Of course, this also means that a given combination of runes, let's say for example, the infamous ZO GOR SAR, might create a gigantic dragon-killing explosion in one person's dungeons, but another might punish the player for casting such a maligned spell by poisoning all of their champions and taking away all their mana. This is only hypothetical, but you see the point I'm getting at-- if I forget the meaning of the spell for the dungeon I happen to be in at the time, I'm in big trouble!
Anyway, I remember Black Crypt. It was fun. Prettier than DM, though it just lacked a certain... substance. I hated that you couldn't close doors on monsters. Or that you were stuck with the same old four champions, for that matter.
You assume spells would be a global addition. They wouldn't. At most, the spells would be added to a single dungeon or a few dungeons, to give people the choice-- if the new spells are added straight to RTC or CSB4Win or whatever, that takes away the element of choice for those like myself and Gambit who would opt not to use them.
Of course, this also means that a given combination of runes, let's say for example, the infamous ZO GOR SAR, might create a gigantic dragon-killing explosion in one person's dungeons, but another might punish the player for casting such a maligned spell by poisoning all of their champions and taking away all their mana. This is only hypothetical, but you see the point I'm getting at-- if I forget the meaning of the spell for the dungeon I happen to be in at the time, I'm in big trouble!
Anyway, I remember Black Crypt. It was fun. Prettier than DM, though it just lacked a certain... substance. I hated that you couldn't close doors on monsters. Or that you were stuck with the same old four champions, for that matter.
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D. Lacouture
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Lunever : When I considered adding some spells to CSB4Win, I was thinking about those I always found were missing in the original DM (Heal being the most important, I think...). I won't lose time adding a "paint walls in green" spell, or whatever... Same thing about what rune to use : the DM manual is clear enough to forbid giving random combinaisons to spells.
But I have to disagree with you : I do care about what offensive spell I'm casting. Of course, in the current DM, you only got Fireballs, Lightning and poisons missiles... But in my opinion, other spells should be added to extend how you can hurt a monster... For example, a golem is pretty immune to fireballs, but alternate fireballs and IceBolts, and you'll be cracking it in no time (must add a temperature attribute, but what the hell)... That's just an example, of course.
Same thing for Black flames, the Dragon, or Demons... They should be more damaged by IceBolts than Fireballs, in my opinion...
But I have to disagree with you : I do care about what offensive spell I'm casting. Of course, in the current DM, you only got Fireballs, Lightning and poisons missiles... But in my opinion, other spells should be added to extend how you can hurt a monster... For example, a golem is pretty immune to fireballs, but alternate fireballs and IceBolts, and you'll be cracking it in no time (must add a temperature attribute, but what the hell)... That's just an example, of course.
Same thing for Black flames, the Dragon, or Demons... They should be more damaged by IceBolts than Fireballs, in my opinion...
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Christopher
Re: Anyone interessed in adding spells?
Then again, not every monster should be killable with magic. That would make the game very unenjoyable and I probably wouldn't play it. I highly recommend you (Lacouture) play DM2. It has many new spells like Reflector and Push. You would probably enjoy it. Even if you don't play it, you can check out some of the spells you're missing on this site (Dungeon Master II\Reference\Spells). You can use a weapon in each hand. Monsters can close and open doors. You can teleport. Buy\sell items...