Automated gamebook mechanics

[Gambit37]

As if I don't have enough projects consuming my time, I was just thinking about how to build a web-based gamebook engine. I doubt I'd ever get around to it, but here's a question that I wanted to throw out there...

If an engine automatically 'collected' items for you as you went along, should it automatically then 'use' those items when the opportunity arises?

For example, rather than asking a question like "Do you have the Eye of Gubbins?", should it instead suggest "You have the Eye of Gubbins, would you like to use it?"

I'm wondering about whether part of the enjoyment of playing FF or LW type games actually comes from tracking this stuff yourself, or if given the chance, most people would like it handled for them?

Of course, building some sort of auto inventory system would be a lot more complicated than simply asking the question...

[Christopher]

For me, it would probably depend on the item. If it's something I think I might get better use from at a different time, then I'd like to hold on to it (like an item that boosts a status temporarily). However, I imagine some items should be used when asked (like a key). Although I may be way off base with this. I'm not familiar with that type of game.

[beowuuf]

On project aon there is a discussion with someone who has done an animated flash interface for the books, link here

The options only highlight when you can use them (like selecting the right skill or having the object)

This includes the inventory management of course due to the nature of the games

The interestign point is about rules management in gameboook - automating this stuff, you have to act liek a rules lawyer - do you get to add a point here? Can you use this poition there?

I reckon the answer is to leave it all in the players hands, and simply make it like an interactive book and let the play and cheat and forget things on their own

[Gambit37]

Weirdly enough I was browsing that earlier and downloaded it -- haven't checked it out yet though.

The reason I brought it up is because I was remembering trying to play a LW project Aon book and didn't like that Statskeeper didn't automatically track stuff for you. Plus it was ugly.

It's just thinking out loud though, I doubt I'd ever build something like this.

[beowuuf]

The statskeeper has evolved now, but there is also a different action chart you maitain yourself that is quite spanky

That one you downloaded is pretty cool interface, though the random number stuff is quite slow i feel. The trouble is that only the first tow books are done under it so far

[Gambit37]

I just had a quick play of it and got killed after taking Pelethar's horse and slicing up that orrible Gourgaz real good.

You can turn off the random number animation and speed the comabt up which is a lot better than the default. Overall, this is a pretty good little engine and certainly with something like this there's no reason for me to consider doing my own version -- except for the fact that the interface is not very attractive and a bit clunky and doesn't really feel right for Lone Wolf. I could do a much better look and feel for it

[beowuuf]

stop project creeping! one thing at a time!

[Gambit37]

I get bored easily....

[ian_scho]

I can't believe that there is nothing on sourceforge.net similar to what you mention - it's a great idea Gambit. I think it's pretty wicked! Do keep us updated with any ideas or if you plan to go ahead with it. As you said, ohhh if I had the time.

[linflas]

LW books 1 to 4 have been converted to Javascript but it's only in french.. and quite ugly imho.
http://chg96.free.fr/jeux/loup-solitaire/lmdt/index.htm
Click on LW logo to play.

[cowsmanaut]

wow, I had made the suggestion in your other thread without realising it'd already been done

[Gambit37]

I've just realised that RTCs full-screen plot screens could be used as gamebook engine. You would put all the text (and any associated images) on the bitmap and give buttons to the player for their choices. The normal interface is hidden.

You could dip out to real-time mini dungeons for the combat sections. Activating other plot screens on monster death would advance the story again. Maybe even mix it up a bit offering possibilities to trap monsters, drop them down pits, etc using normal dungeon gameplay, then moving the story on with extra inserted feedback.

Action mechanics would allow the collection of items into your inventory and conditional relays could be used to direct you to screens where you choose to use those items (so no entries like "If you have such and such and wish to use it").

There are two difficulties:

1) No easy way to monitor your inventory and stats -- although you can dip to the dungeon view to do so, getting back to the plot screen that was displayed would be tricky, though there may be actions that allow this, I haven't explored enough.

2) Handling secret entries given to the player ("If you ever meet so and so, turn immediately to 241."), though again there may be ways around this using invisible buttons and telling the player where to click on screen.

I quite like the idea of a textual adventure played in this way, though one downside would be the amount of work required to make what would essentiually be a very short game.

Interesting, interesting...

[Sophia]

Hmm, that's some outside of the box thinking.
Sort of a choose-your-own-dungeon, or the possibility of introducing more plot into a DM-style game without really losing the "DM feel."

I would be slacking off if I didn't mention that DSB's full-screen plot screens could also be used for this purpose, with the added bonus that your two issues would not be issues.

It has the ability to draw the screens dynamically, too, so you wouldn't necessarily have to make the screens up ahead of time. Just create the generic background (and whatever specialized images) and tell it to print the text as needed.

Of course, there would be significant coding involved, but considering the amount of arcane relay and action item hacking you'd have to do, coding the thing in a real programming language might seem sane by comparison!

[Gambit37]

Sort of a choose-your-own-dungeon, or the possibility of introducing more plot into a DM-style game without really losing the "DM feel."

I think it would be more the other way around: a point and click gamebook with a little bit of DM gameplay thrown in for the fighting.

I would be slacking off if I didn't mention that DSB's full-screen plot screens could also be used for this purpose, with the added bonus that your two issues would not be issues.

I haven't explore DSB. While I'm sure it's great for this sort of thing, my understanding is that to build stuff, you need to code stuff. I'm a visual, point and click person and I prefer RTC for this reason -- plus I have so much tinkering projects in RTC that I'mnot keen on switching to something else now.

It has the ability to draw the screens dynamically, too, so you wouldn't necessarily have to make the screens up ahead of time. Just create the generic background (and whatever specialized images) and tell it to print the text as needed.

Now that's pretty handy. RTC can't do this.

[Sophia]

I think it would be more the other way around: a point and click gamebook with a little bit of DM gameplay thrown in for the fighting.

Oh, I guess I didn't see the DM combat interface as that interesting in itself, if you just stand there and hack and slash... unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant. It seems like it would be more immersive if you had some mazes to run around in, and plot screens and decisions to make when you arrived at certain points... sort of like SNES Arcana.

Or, of course, you could have the dungeon window visible on your plot screens, and it would be sort of like a graphic adventure.

I'm a visual, point and click person

What you're creating with all those relays and action items is a program, even if you don't call it one.

Now that's pretty handy.

Hehe, the ability to dynamically draw screens and such goes pretty far. At one point Remy had a pretty good implementation of Pong working in DSB.

[Gambit37]

unless I'm misunderstanding what you meant. It seems like it would be more immersive if you had some mazes to run around in, and plot screens and decisions to make when you arrived at certain points... sort of like SNES Arcana.

Plot driven DM gameplay is something I'm working on in a different project, and yes, it's far more interesting... but for the gamebook idea, the fighting would just be an incidental fun 'extra'.

What you're creating with all those relays and action items is a program, even if you don't call it one.

Yes, true, but it's easier for a dummy like me.

[Gambit37]

I did a quick proofer in RTC and it's simply not good enough for anything other than the simplest decision making -- managing inventories and stats is virtually impossible in a full screen way, because the engine is so built around the dungeon interface.

Oh well, it was just a thought.

While I was playing around, I created this though: Oh, happy memories:

[Gambit37]

I was thinking about gamebooks again the other day and whether there are many that would work as a DM type game.

Linflas is doing Forest of Doom which so far looks really good. It's more or less a "dungeon" type game (even though it's mostly outdoors) and I think lends itself to DM gameplay. However, there are lots of other gamebooks that would be much harder to adapt -- House of Hell springs to mind, since it's more about talking to people and gaining information to succeed, plus it's one of those weird ones where you have to do things at the right time.

What do you think are the best ways of handling gamebook style decision making in a DM game? Should it all be removed and simply distill the core adventure into basic "find objects / open doors / solve puzzles / kill stuff" so that it works in the DM engine (and losing the texture of the story in the process). Or should we try and preserve as much as possible of the original book, and if necessary add complex interactions to simulate the decisions in the book (probably only possible using DSB or RTC.)????

Just curious, this doesn't mean I'm making one!

[beowuuf]

I think keep the flavour of the book if possible, just like zyx did in CSBwin for Deathtrap Dungeon. Sure, that isn't the most taxing of books, but there were still riddles and NPC style interactions to be done!

[Trantor]

I think that different mediums need different treats. Converting every choice you can make in a gamebook into a DM-type game is not a good idea in my book. Though you are given a lot of choices ("Do you go west or east? Do you open the magically sealed bottle or throw it into the lake?"), these choices don't feel very interactive as you follow either pre-set path A or pre-set path B instead of actually doing stuff on your own.

Similarly to Beo, I'd say that keeping the main plot, structure and atmosphere of the book is the important part. But I'd much prefer when details are changed, puzzles are added or removed so the adventure works better as a DM-type game. Plus, if you convert an actual gamebook, people who played the book will have more fun if the computer game offer some surprises.

[Gambit37]

I actually really like the idea of doing House of Hell as a RTC adventure (yeah, yeah, one thing at a time, I know!). But it's a pretty hard one to do if you follow the book, since so much of it doesn't work as normal DM gameplay. You have several ways into the house and the early part of the game is all about sitting around waiting to be knocked out so you can then wake in a bedroom and go and explore. And depending how you do this initial bit, it determines whether you can succeed or not. It's also a pain to map since half the descriptions don't tell you specifically how all the doors and rooms connect. Would require a lot of artistic licence!

Scorpion Swamp seems like one that could work really well, since it's based on an unambiguous map and actually requires a lot of backtracking, plus it has multiple quests -- great for replay value! Though it's fairly simplistic in terms of actual story and puzzles I seem to recall.

[Zyx]

Interesting challenge! Some ideas:

The main concern would be to keep a nice flow of the game, so two problems would arise: dialogues and special events.

1) the dialogues: it would be mandatory to not break the flow of the game, so you should be able to talk with someone while the dungeon engine is still running. When facing a NPC, replacing the 3 actions by some dialogue options could do the trick. The options would be dependent on global variables and the internal state of the NPC.
The dialogue would appear in the text area while facing the NPC, for example.

2) the events:
Though most of them should be integrated into the mechanisms of DM, some descriptions or narrations couldn't be translated through the the visuals of DM and some text would be necessary (ie, psychological events like this woman is suspicious or your sixth sense tells you that...)
Sometimes it would necessary to pause the game and show an illustration (passing of time, change of place, special encounter), but these occurences should be restricted in number.

[Gambit37]

We're talking about game books -- I think you might have missed that craze, being one of our older members?

There were many different series established over the years, but the most well known was Fighting Fantasy. The named books I mentioned are from the FF series.

Linflas is converting Forest of Doom (FF #3) to a realtime game using the RTC engine. I've been speculating on how easy it might be convert others...

[Sophia]

I think you might have missed that craze, being one of our older members?

I think there are also geographical factors. Fighting Fantasy was not as popular in the US. We had Choose Your Own Adventure, which was rather different, really.

In thinking about it, I think I had one FF book when I was younger, but I didn't like it much and I certainly didn't know it was part of some vastly popular series.

[Trantor]

I agree with Sophia on the geographical thing. Though my girlfriend and her sisters possessed quite a number of Fighting Fantasy books, I've never heard of anyone else here in Germany who had even heard of them. The first German pen&paper RPG, Das Schwarze Auge (The Black Eye), adopted the gamebook concept for their solo adventure modules, and since the system was quite popular back then, it probably satisfied the market.

Paul, I've only recently learned about FRUA which is really a shame. I still love the old SSI Gold Box games; in fact, I replayed Pool of Radiance not too long ago. I'd certainly like to play some custom games for that engine as well.