No save feature

PadTheMad · Post by **PadTheMad** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:52 pm

Any strong monster or difficult puzzle can be solved with a good combination of skill and saving often. What if the option to save could be disabled and re-enabled at certain points. (If anyone has played Primal. you'll know what I mean).

It could add that extra bit of tension and edge to a dungeon by telling the player that 'Saving is blocked in the following part of the dungeon'. The player will know that a difficult part is approaching but not quite knowing what.

Good or bad idea?

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:04 pm

Interesting idea certainly
You could kinda create this in a DMuted dungeon by making a save crash on a a level with deliberately bad hex

Post by **linflas** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:16 pm

maybe trigger acting has saving points could be better like in Prince of Persia, the sands (of time) illuminated sources.. and saving is disabled all the rest of the time.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:18 pm

This would be easy to do in CSBwin.....mostly because the 'no-save'
state need not be saved! I'll add it.

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:46 pm

Interesting suggestion - you could have a "save trigger" that when stepped on gave you the option to save, and everywhere else it was disabled...

Post by **Gambit37** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:37 pm

This is a tricky one to get right, and one that has caused massive discussion among developers for years.

Allowing 'Save Anywhere' in games gives more control to the player, and that is generally a good thing. But conversely it can make the game much easier to play and complete because you can simply save as much as you want, every few seconds if you wish. Personally, I find this a less immersive way of playing, but some players wouldn't play a game where they couldn't save wherever they wanted.

Using 'save points' can be equally annoying: you play through a complete level, waiting to find the save point which is just around the corner after the big baddie -- which wipes out your party. You have to return to the previous save point, a whole level away. This can be soooooooooo frustrating, and makes the difference between 'just one more try' or going to bed.

I can see the pros and cons of both methods, and I tend to favour the 'save anywhere' approach as it's less frustrating, but I only ever save every once in a while so it's down to each player's individual self-discipline.

Anyway, these triggers could be interesting if used wisely by a dungeon designer.

Post by **linflas** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:07 pm

this feature must be interesting for non linear dungeons like CSB. you could save only at the medusa fountain or next to the DDD.
could add a NOSAVE value in the dungeon txt file ? then you can release 2 versions for your dungeon : one for normal gamers and one for hardcore gamers..

PadTheMad · Post by **PadTheMad** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:16 pm

My thoughts exactly Gambit - you should see the amount of times I save on games. On average I normally save 40 - 50 times the first time I play through a game (if it's a 'save anywhere'). Primal being one such example and I'm only using it because I've only just got round to finishing it after having it for nearly a year!

Saving is one of the most important aspects in games and can make or break a game. I thought that even though the Dungeon Master (and RTC) save feature works really well, some dungeon designers could create a different atmosphere using a slightly altered save function with the following features:

1. Saving can be either enabled or disabled (entirely)
2. Two modfying squares that enable and disable saving (pass over a 'disable save' square and you will have to pass over an 'enable save' square to re-enable saving and vice-versa.)
3. A toggling square that toggles saving (don't know how useful this on would be, maybe leave it out)
4. Saving squares or areas that allow saving in that area only (e.g. save points in a 'saving disabled' dungeon)

Players could be warned/notified about saving by displaying a message as they enter a particular area.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:19 pm

Personally i think the temporary disable save is the best option, so you can make a creature an all the way through attempt, or a certain puzzle/area

How about having the 'NOSAVE' option as a level option - that way you can create an area or level without saves, or do it to all levels for a whole dungeon.
Combine it with the pressure pad that acts as a save point, and that would allow most combinations of gameplay.

PadTheMad · Post by **PadTheMad** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:24 pm

Pressure pad save point - fantastic idea!

copperman · Post by **copperman** » Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:53 pm

Hmm, cool idea. All you need is a single new wall item WALLITEM_SAVE. Add one to a level and saving is disabled on that level. Anything triggering it, ie a footplate or a switch, would perform a save request or even an auto save. Using only 1 bit for the options. Dunno how or if.

That's my two pen'orth.

Big-J-Q · Post by **Big-J-Q** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:45 pm

How about if saving had side-effects? Such as reducing hitpoints, or then there could be a limit to save-times for each (non-linear) dungeon or for each level in a (linear) dungeon. Some of FPS's have used this method; They all made me save less often, because I feared I might run out of save times when I really needed them.

Of course, this could result in player saving savepoints and then use them in a tight puzzle or combat to get through it with ease.

Jardice · Post by **Jardice** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:08 am

hmm I can see a flaw in this method...especially for peopel who don't have the time to play the dungeon in one sitting and need to save often in order to not lose their place in a dugeon.

Or am I looking at this the worong way?...

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:22 pm

i guess they shouldn't play dungeons using this method, or as linflas suggested designers perhaps give also a 'cheat' dungeon with the saving re-enabled : )

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 10:54 am

How about something like Tomb Raider ? save crystals ? you would have a fixed number of them to complete the dungeon...

PadTheMad · Post by **PadTheMad** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:50 am

See that's a good idea in theory but the problem is self-discipline. If, like me, you're a frequent saver you'll use all of them early on and will not be able to save later on in the dungeon when you need them most. Take FF7 for example, I know a few people who, on their journey to Sepiroth used all their save crystals, and it took them ages to finish it. I think that's why they changed the saving system for Tomb Raider 2 (and on the newer N-Gage version or TR1)

There must be more effective way of implementing this idea though, it's just until the right person thinks it up...

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:01 pm

I truly think that's one of the good things of the game, having a fixed number of "saves"... makes it that much more interesting and chalenging (at least for the hard-core gamers)

PadTheMad · Post by **PadTheMad** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:18 pm

I agree but that is for the hard-core gamers who know the game inside out. If you're new to a game or level then you need a less restrictive saving system.

I think I feel a challange comming on... sorry if this is out of context or if it has already been done but what's the least amount of saves anyone has completed DM in?

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:50 pm

I remember one time finishing it with 5 saves, i was on a weekend and only stopped to eat and sleep (i was playing ff5 at the time, so please no critics)

Post by **Gambit37** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:18 pm

I've completed it several times without saving at all; it's easy once you know it and doesn't take very long.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Jul 15, 2004 6:26 pm

Indeed, i've played a few game like that, no saves. The first time i also wanted to see how long it would take - i think completing everything i was on the four hour mark when sloppy movement got me into an ambush and i bought it! very frustrating!

I imagine the idea would be to implement this no saves on new dungeons, (someone can always adjust the originals) - so hopefulyl they would be designed with enthusiastic and beginners in mind

copperman · Post by **copperman** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:14 am

this is all well and good but will GG impliment the WALLITEM_SAVE as suggested ?

Post by **linflas** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:21 am

i just think about the saving system in severance : blade of darkness. you can save at any time but there's a rank name depending on how many saves you've done, and where you are in the game (i.e. percentage completed). if you save very often you're ranked to 'poor', 'weak', 'coward', etc.. i completed the game with less than 30 saves which means 'awesome' or something like that

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:16 pm

Then how about something like Diablo II ? you save/exit and every monster in the level you're in respawns and you end up in the beginning of the level ? that would be interesting... Doesn't really work in Diablo II because the fragging levels are too big, but...

Post by **linflas** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:52 pm

can be interesting but only for linear dungeons..

FallenSeraphin · Post by **FallenSeraphin** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:17 pm

Wouldn't work in Black Crypt

George Gilbert · Post by **George Gilbert** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:41 am

OK - I've now implemented this for V0.29.

There's a new option in the main section of the txt file "RESTRICT_SAVES=(xxx) where xxx is either TRUE or FALSE". If it is set to FALSE, then everything is as before (just as the RESTRICT_RUNES option). If it is set to TRUE however, saving is disabled throughout the entire dungeon, unless the party is on a tile containing a FLOORITEM_SAVE_POINT object - here they can save as per normal (note specifically that saving isn't automatic; it's still the players choice).

The default graphic for FLOORITEM_SAVE_POINT is the same as that for a FLOORITEM_PAD_LARGE except with an outline of a floppy disk on it (obvioulsy this can be cloned and replaced with alternate graphics if you so wish!). Please feel free to suggest an alternative graphic!