What the heck?

§koff · Post by **§koff** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:25 pm

I posted here yesterday and now it's gone. What the heck?

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:37 pm

Sorry about that. I hope you can remember enough of what you
wanted to say that you can try again. What forum did you post in?
I don't think I remember seeing it.

skoff · Post by **skoff** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:59 pm

Okay, I will post again. Keep in mind I'm new here... the number of clones, editors, etc etc is boggling my mind but I like csbwin because supposedly it was created by reverse-engineering the Atari code, and I like some of the features such as items remaining in CSB etc. But I have some questions, some of them might be a bit noobish.

1) Reincarnation halves primary stats and reduces secondary stats... I don't remember this happening in the original. Did I simply never notice?

2) (a)How can I edit my characters? DMute works with my CSBWin 7.2 but not with my CSBWin 9.6Plus25 ... I downloaded v9.7 but I have a feeling it won't work with that either. (b)Even when I edit 7.2 savegames I can't seem to get the portraits to come out right.. they're all distorted.

3) I had some other questions but I can't remember now... Oh yeah well this might be off-topic but does anyone know what the hidden skills actually correspond to? For example the 4 hidden fighter skills might correspond to eg blunt weapons, bladed weapons, etc or somethign like that... if someone has access to the atari code this should be well known should it not?

4) It keeps telling me 'invalid session' when I try to post this message... luckily I copied to clipboard..

Okay thanks

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:41 pm

Also, howcome RTC has like 6 forum areas dedicated to it but CSBWin only has this one, which seems to be mostly dealing with CSBuild?

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:41 pm

1) Reincarnate in CSB halves the stats. That is the way the Atari code
worked. There is a Menu Item to play with DM rules. DM did not halve
the stats. This has been discussed at great length in the past.

2) Character Editing. Other people have solved this, I believe. It has
certainly been mentioned before. At one time, I offered to export the
characters and import them again if someone were to write a character
editor. But I think that nobody wanted to do that work. Or they started
but never finished. Something like that.

3) Hidden skills. I don't know. The code is quite complex but I think the
skills are neatly associated with particular attack types. Someone else
might know.

4) Invalid Session.....Hmmmm. I have never had a problem. Back in the
old days on dmweb we used to have to try an average of about three times
to get a post to work. But it has always worked perfectly for me in these
forums. I cannot suggest anything.

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:56 pm

1) Ah, okay thanks. I was a DM freak long ago but never got into CSB. I know some of these questions are repeats of previous questions but I guess I'm too lazy to spend hours searching all the forums and archives... I've always hated forums for that reason. Lots and lots of information, very very poorly organized.

2) Okay... doesn't DMute include a character editor? So isn't one already written? Work has already been done? Save game format seems to have changed somewhere between v7.2 and v9.x

3) One would think people would be interested in this..

4) Nevermind, it seems to be okay now..

Thanks for the quick reply.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:39 pm

1) The forum has a search function. The DM Encyclopaedia also gets updated to include information discovered or provided.

2) DMute 1.4 has some issues with porttraits and CSB i believe. Try v1.3 if it is available anywhere.

4) If you are disconnected from the internet and reconnect, you will get this message. I'm not sure of any other causes.

Earlier questions -

The RTC and CSBwin forums were once seperate from here. The RTC forums were a seperate website that followed the programme from its initial inception onwards, inluding all the discussions that entailed. The CSBwin forum was part of the DM&CSB Encyclopaedia forums so it had only a single forum there.
This can be expanded if Paul or everyone else feel it is needed. It would require discussion on how to split it, and the efforts of a moderator/administrator to move five pages of posts around.

There was a post this morning in the RTC editor development forum that was removed. It had no body just the subject about there already being an editor.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:43 pm

doesn't DMute include a character editor?

Yes. If you want to edit an original game you should be able to do that.
But DMute will never load a game like ConfluxII, for example. The
format that CSBwin/CSBuild uses has changed dramatically to include
all sorts of new features. Play ConfluxII to get a feel for some of the
things we have added.

This can be expanded if Paul or everyone else feel it is needed

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:06 am

beowuuf wrote:1) The forum has a search function. The DM Encyclopaedia also gets updated to include information discovered or provided.

(...)

beowuuf wrote: There was a post this morning in the RTC editor development forum that was removed. It had no body just the subject about there already being an editor.

Yes that was me... I posted it because RTC already has an editor and I didn't understand why there are like 2 or 3 other projects devoted to developing RTC editors. To me it seems like there is a lot of redundancy in this community, in which case a lot of all this talent and hard work is being squandered. The main two projects seem to be CSBwin and RTC; each of them have redeeming qualities that the other lacks but everything seems to be incompatible with everything else... both between projects, and also from version to version. I would have to devote my life to DM/CSB for several months to even begin to figure out what is going on around here.

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:09 am

Paul Stevens wrote:
doesn't DMute include a character editor?
Yes. If you want to edit an original game you should be able to do that.

Well, maybe I'm reporting a bug then. When I play CSBWin 9.x in original DM or CSB and save the game, then try to load it up in DMute 1.4 it says 'invalid savegame' or something of that nature...

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:40 am

When I play CSBWin 9.x in original DM or CSB and save the game, then try to load it up in DMute 1.4 it says 'invalid savegame' or something of that nature...

The problem is that the savegames produced by either CSBuild or by CSBwin
are in the latest format. I long ago gave up trying to make programs that
could produce files in old formats. Sorry about that. It would certainly be possible
to have code that would write a file in any one of several dozen formats but
I cannot bring myself to a) write all that code. b) test all that code. c) maintain
all that code. It is bad enough that these programs have to load dungeons
that are in dozens of different formats, but the fact that you can load an
original dungeon using the latest CSBwin attests to the fact that I have
generally succeeded.

So....edit your original dungeon with dmute before playing it with CSBwin
and all will be well. Or get someone to take up my offer of export/import
of Characters.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:46 am

RTC editors - George, who designed RTC, has packaged it with a basic editor to get people started. Of course every designer will want to be able to a hundred things easily with it,or have lots of features, but he is busy with real life, aswell as just building up the programme itself.

Therefore even two external editors being developed by people solely concentrating on them isn't a bad thing, and is more likely to yeild an editor that will give someone everything they want when building an RTC dungeon In the end, it is a hobby for everyone, and many times for people's interests as much as providing any wide ranging service.

This really applies to everything - this community is more a gathering place to discuss DM, or show off something that someone is working on and enjoying If other people like it, great, if other people can use it, even better. But at the end of the day it is just for fun. So people go at their own pace, in their own free time, and using their own ideas - that makes collaborations very hard, sad though it is, and seems to mean loooong stretches of time in between project updates. Also a shame, but such is life.

CSBwin's latest versions have many subtle and not so subtle tweaks - more decorations and monsters per level than in the original games, more item counts. One of the biggets is a new background mechanic, called a DSA, that allows many puzzle and dungeon possibiliies. All this means that, as you have found, the dungeon format long ago sacrificed compatibility with the original Dmute was based on George taking the structure of the static dungeon and saved game formats. So even a tiny change to the file will invalidate it, unfortunately.

The whole community is a little sprawling, hopefully the cover page to the forum and the encycopaedia can save you from wading through alot of posts and point you at the cutting edge or more completed projects.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:02 am

I would have to devote my life to DM/CSB for several months to even begin to figure out what is going on

Sorry about that.

But.........consider the reward.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:08 am

lol, the Way of CSBwin - peace and tranquility without the need to climb a mountain range and meet some strange monks

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:21 am

Paul Stevens wrote: The problem is that the savegames produced by either CSBuild or by CSBwin
are in the latest format. I long ago gave up trying to make programs that
could produce files in old formats. Sorry about that. It would certainly be possible
to have code that would write a file in any one of several dozen formats but
I cannot bring myself to a) write all that code. b) test all that code. c) maintain
all that code. It is bad enough that these programs have to load dungeons
that are in dozens of different formats, but the fact that you can load an
original dungeon using the latest CSBwin attests to the fact that I have
generally succeeded.

Hmmm. How about a standardized format? With ability to add features that can be ignored by older versions? I'm a programmer myself, so I understand how complicated this can all get but I also know that if people work together things like this are achievable.

Paul Stevens wrote: So....edit your original dungeon with dmute before playing it with CSBwin
and all will be well. Or get someone to take up my offer of export/import
of Characters.

Well, um maybe I could do it. Like I said, I'm a programmer and I hold a CS degree. What would be involved? I know absolutely nothing about your data formats or anything but I'm a quick learner.

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:26 am

beowuuf wrote: Therefore even two external editors being developed by people solely concentrating on them isn't a bad thing, and is more likely to yeild an editor that will give someone everything they want when building an RTC dungeon In the end, it is a hobby for everyone, and many times for people's interests as much as providing any wide ranging service.

Well I guess you have a point, these people are working on these things for their own personal enjoyment I suppose, so it's no big deal if they're wasting there time but gee whiz why not standardize things a bit so these new editors can also be used with CSBWin?

This really applies to everything - this community is more a gathering place to discuss DM, or show off something that someone is working on and enjoying If other people like it, great, if other people can use it, even better. But at the end of the day it is just for fun. So people go at their own pace, in their own free time, and using their own ideas - that makes collaborations very hard, sad though it is, and seems to mean loooong stretches of time in between project updates. Also a shame, but such is life.

Yeah I guess so. It's nice to see you people know what I'm talking about; for a little while I thought everyone here was insane.

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:27 am

Paul Stevens wrote:
I would have to devote my life to DM/CSB for several months to even begin to figure out what is going on
Sorry about that.

But.........consider the reward.

LOL that's the most depressing part...

If I work real hard in a few months I can be a DM super-guru!!! And I will be admired and respected by all.

beowuuf · Post by **beowuuf** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 1:42 am

There's also a small statuette if you can do it in a month

The RTC format is COMPLETELY different from DM - it was built from scratch. George made a nice ocnversion utility in DMute 1.4 to try and convert simple PC DM dungeons to RTC, and even that is buggy - so between CSBwin and RTC the two formats and engines are simply too different. On the plus side, RTC dungeons can be created in a text files.

Again, free time and interest make standardising harder. And the small size of the core community mean testing every possibility harder still. The easiest thing to do is to push everything forwards. Currently all the old PC DM games, dmuted dungeons etc can be converted, with some swearing and cursing, to CSBwin. CSBuild has started to edit a wide variety of dungeon formats for use with CSBwin. Once the character editor is done, then this seems a good platform for playing DM and CSB.

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:05 am

beowuuf wrote:There's also a small statuette if you can do it in a month

Who will decide whether I've achieved super-guru status? Will there be a quiz?

Post by **Zyx** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:26 am

A quiz! That's an idea!

>what the hidden skills actually correspond to?
Using the CSBedit tool by Rain after extracting a graphics.dat with DMextract by Rain, you will get all the answers.
With CSBedit, you'll see which hidden skill is associated with each action or spell.

The tools are here:
http://dmweb.free.fr/Forum/read.php?f=8&i=163&t=163

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:45 am

Hissssa wrote:Well, um maybe I could do it. Like I said, I'm a programmer and I hold a CS degree. What would be involved? I know absolutely nothing about your data formats or anything but I'm a quick learner.

I guess if i were to help I'd have to start by studying some source code... I think I read somewhere around here that it's available for download.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:51 am

How about a standardized format?

Ho! Ho! Ho! Looking for an early Christmas?

Even Microsoft (they have more programmers than we) has only recently
begun to attack this problem. These things are theoretically possible, we
all agree. I fear that you will have to suffer until you come up with lots of
money to make us simple folk more interested in backward compatibility
than in forward progress.

Let us take a concrete example. The new CSBwin can support 65000 Gold
Keys. THe original format (DMute-able) can only support 1024. So when I write
a dungeon in the old format, who will decide which 64000 Keys to throw away?
My solution......don't attempt it.

You are a programmer. You can use my code (it is open source) as a start
to write converters to/from a standard format which you, yourself, can specify.
An editable, text-only format might be nice. Your help will be very welcome.

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:55 am

Even Microsoft (they have more programmers than we) has only [...] us simple folk more interested in backward compatibility
than in forward progress.

Hmmm okay I'm just a young 'un I don't know these things.

You are a programmer. You can use my code (it is open source) as a start
to write converters to/from a standard format which you, yourself, can specify.
An editable, text-only format might be nice. Your help will be very welcome.

Dammit you called my bluff. Ah well, where's the link to the code?

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:55 am

Sorry bout the overquoting.

Hissssa · Post by **Hissssa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:05 am

Zyx wrote: >what the hidden skills actually correspond to?
Using the CSBedit tool by Rain after extracting a graphics.dat with DMextract by Rain, you will get all the answers.

Wow that's a great little program thanks for the info man that's really helpful.

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:11 am

where's the link to the code

What do you want to see? CSBuild...the editor? CSBwin...the runtime?
Are you thinking of writing a character editor? For that you need to know
very little. And I can forward a copy of the exported character data for
you to practice on. And I will send the C struct definitions. They are
quite simple.

Are you thinking of writing standardized game files? You
cannot do that in a useful way, in my humble opinion.

The source code for version 9.7 and 1.0
can be found at
dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin
CSBuild10src
CSBsrc97.rar

kentaro-k.21 · Post by **kentaro-k.21** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 5:27 pm

hi Paul.

Let us take a concrete example. The new CSBwin can support 65000 Gold
Keys. THe original format (DMute-able) can only support 1024.

does it mean new/extended dungeon.dat format can handle items in database more than 1024?
i'm interesting about new format, if is already complete. any available resource for that?

Post by **Paul Stevens** » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:03 pm

any available resource for that

The source code for version 9.7 and 1.0
can be found at
dianneandpaul.net/CSBwin
CSBuild10src
CSBsrc97.rar
And I am willing to answer questions.

kentaro-k.21 · Post by **kentaro-k.21** » Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:39 am

thanks Paul, i could get answer the magic of 65000 items!!

"indirect index" is very nice.

my guess was irrevant. i thought that you extended the record link size to 3 or 4 bytes.

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