Use of languages other than English

[Gambit37]

A thread about a new RTC dungeon by Tonari was started in English and continued by Sophia in Japanese.

It's cool to see people with skills in Japanese! But I was rather annoyed by this as I have been in the past when other people have hijacked threads while talking in their own language.

Because this is an international forum, I think it's only fair that public facing posts be conducted in the most widely recognised language, so that everyone can understand. It's kinda rude to change the language of a thread -- it's like somebody talking about you right in front of you in a language they know you can't understand.

It happens that English is the international language and because I'm English I imagine some people think I'm being a snob or lazy. It's not that -- if French were the most widely recognised, I'd insist on that instead.

Additionally, not everyone has double-byte language support on their computers, so for Chinese, Japanese and Korean some people can't even see the correct characters which makes using a translator impossible.

I think that if you want to chat in a local language, it should be done by private message only.

Thoughts?

[Zyx]

この地下牢は、すごいですよね！
これは私の意見だけですが。。。
Gambitは普通に音楽がありませんが、遊んでる時に好きになってきました。
イントロもあるのはとてもえらいです！
ゲームに入るが早いか話が見えてゲームの世界にも入る。

[George Gilbert]

この地下牢は、すごいですよね！
これは私の意見だけですが。。。
Gambitは普通に音楽がありませんが、遊んでる時に好きになってきました。
イントロもあるのはとてもえらいです！
ゲームに入るが早いか話が見えてゲームの世界にも入る。

Now I think you might have just copy-and-pasted that bit because (unless of course you meant to talk about just how large the underground prison is and how the background music is unexpected but works quite well) it doesn't really make sense in the context of Gambits post

[beowuuf]

Sorry, in this case a resounding "NO!" to taking offense at this type of non-english posting I think it is common sense whether the posts have to be in english or not really, but I am certanly not restricting people from speakign in their language!

If the thread is started by an non-english speaker, and then comments are addressed to them in their language, it is none of our business. If they or the other person wishes to translate for others to know, or if people want to ask what is said (in this cae with a review) fine, but otherwise they can leave well enough alone. The benefits of knowing, say, that a piece of advice maybe isn't complete, or a point has already been covered before offerign further advice or that someone has just been told something offensive, I think are outweighed by the offense at forcing a language on others, and of couese the potential for confusion.

My grasp of english isn't 100% and I speak it - so tryign to convey my review is lost. I personally think it is arrogant to force non-english speakers to speak in a language they aren't comfortable in, so that their comments aren't potentially expressed as well and then aren't poetntially understood as well either!

However, if a general discussion is transferred to a language other cannot understand without stating what is said, then yes, in this case that is the same as an OT and basically you would move the discussion outside or ask them to perhaps summarise the points.

So if someone asks a question and it is answered, or, if, in this case a dungeon review is beign stated, I am not comfortable with making any comment whatsoever and will defend their right to have such comments!

Ayway, that's my thoughts - havign seen this kind of thing in real life recently, that bothered me, I certainly do not wish to have it started here!

Viva la difference! (sp?) ??????????DM???????!

[Adamo]

I would definitely like to speak polish on the forum rather than english, because I don`t know english that well. But there`s only a few users from Poland on the whole forums, so I can`t. I have to use dictionaries frequently when reading/writing posts. But it`s the most known language in a world so far.

Maybe the best way would be to make a short guidelines in languages like german, french, polish, japan etc. for new users who don`t know english well enough to show them what-is-what with DM on the forums. For example I had great problems with understanding many things on the beginning (like the number of clones - I though you cannot edit CSBwin files or do people make custom dungeons and how, where to find the clones - it took me weeks to figure it out [*]etc etc). Maybe the native english speaking people can find it silly, but that`s the way it was for me. Maybe because it was the first forum I log in; I wasn`t even sure how to use it.

[*] - the forums was like a mess for me on the beginning; I needed a time to get know what-is-what, where-is-it and what-is-it-for.

[Adamo]

1. what I mean is that someone should expand (write info more precisely) and translate the http://www.dungeon-master.com/ page to various languages; it could be a good beginning for a weak english speaking beginners.

2. And, for example, the

Send in the clones

Fans have also made some clone engines of this game, all with editors available:

* Return To Chaos: A faithful duplicate of DM and CSB playable through Windows. Features full editing and many fun new feature to create completely new feeling games.
* Chaos Strikes Back For Windows: The original CSB for Atari converted to run under Windows. This project has expanded with advanced features so all the original dungeons and new expanded dungeons are available.
* Dungeon Master Java: A platform independent clone of DM, with full editing.

See the Forums for more.

should have direct links to download them so the beginners wouldn`t have to search the places for download them on the forum.

[Gambit37]

I don't think I'm being arrogant. I'm trying to simply find a common ground that everyone can understand.

I use other forums that are international that insist on English usage and the non-English speaking people who use it seem to have no problem with it and in fact have said that it helped them improve their English. Case in point is Adamo -- you said your English isn't very good but we can understand you perfectly.

As for the "right" to post in your own language that's fair enough, but:

1) In this case Tonari posted in English and the thread was changed part way through -- while I can understand it's more helpful for Tonari, it doesn't allow anyone else on the forum any clue about what's going on. If we have 100 people speaking English who can offer help in English, you're limiting that help by restricting the language.

2) Double-byte character sets, if unsupported on a particular users machine, cannot even be copied into an on-line translator by those who are inclinded to do so.

I'm not trying to be elitist about this or anything but simply mindful of the fact that as English is the most widely understood language, it makes sense for us all to use it so that EVERYONE can get the maximum out of the forum.

@Beo: can you outline the real-life incident you're referring to
@Zyx: Very funny. No idea what that says. I should have expected that!

[Paul Stevens]

I have no problem with people writing
in their native tongue. Unfortunately,
a single such posting causes me to
immediately stop reading/replying to
ANY posts in that thread because
I have no way of knowing what has been
asked/answered already.

I think that this result is the only downside
and does not affect me unless it is I
who want help.

I do understand that feeling of someone
'talking behind my back'. But I attempt
to ignore it and pretend I am not paranoid.

[ian_scho]

Cuando escribo en una idoma no inglés, intentaré también tradicirlo en inglés, si es un foro internacional. Este es mi opinion personal.

When I write in a non english language, I would try to translate it to English as well in the same message if it's an 'international' forum. It's a personal thing.

[Trantor]

Before I start, I want to mention that I haven't read the thread in question, but since this is a general discussion, I think I don't need to in order to voice an opinion. Furthermore, people not talking in English happens so rarely here that I don't think it actually deserves to be called a problem. Nevertheless, I do have my thoughts about this.

My opinion is sort of in-between those of Beo, Paul Stevens and ian_scho. I absolutely don't mind people talking in their own languages, and I have done so myself occasionally, as most regulars are certainly aware of. But I also have a tendency to not read the thread in question very thoroughly if I can't understand a thing. So, if the post in question is something that holds interest for everybody, like a bug report, then I think giving an English translation like ian_scho did is a very good idea, even if the English translation only gives a rough idea what the post is about. If the post is something like a personal comment, than I don't even think a translation is necessary. There are lots of OT posts like personal jokes and stuff that other people who are not directly involved don't respond to, so why not allow the same in other languages?

There is one case where I actually think we should encourage the use of other languages, and that is when a new users says hi to us. When a new German user registerts, I usually greet them in English and then with a few kind words in German, because I think this helps a newcomer to feel welcome and greeted with open arms. I know I would like that treatment if it happened to me, so if there is somebody new from France, Poland, Japan, Spain or wherever, I think it would be a very good idea if somebody here could welcome them in their own language.

[Gambit37]

I have no problem with people writing
in their native tongue. Unfortunately,
a single such posting causes me to
immediately stop reading/replying to
ANY posts in that thread because
I have no way of knowing what has been
asked/answered already.

I think that this result is the only downside
and does not affect me unless it is I
who want help.

Exactly. It's rather counterproductive on an international forum where people *want* to help and can't because they don' know what's going on.

If you want to start a thread asking for help in your own language and only then can discuss it on a one-to-one level with one or two other people, that's fine. I have no problem with that and retract my note about resorting to private messages.

But suddenly limiting yourself by changing languages in the middle of a thread (that already had input from other people in a common language) is both bizarre and disrespectful to those who already contributed.

[beowuuf]

Sorry, at work, will reply better later

If we are looking at the specific case of Tonari, he has done everything you have actually asked all the time, and I think to his detrement. Every RTC question is in english, even though it is complex questions that he is findign it hard to phrase (or personally i find it hard to exactly understand sometimes), which also means that our answers in english may well not entirely help him.

So I am concerned that the secodn he is answered and answers in his native language he is being pounced on. If you look at the release thread again, you will see that my english reply is probably not understandable to a normal person let alone a non-english speaker. Sophia then gives her coments in his language (so will be much more helpful).

Tonari answered comments directly in japanese, the first time he has ever done that, and then instantly swapped back to english to thankboth myself and sophia and summarised in english what was goign on from there. To me he has shown utmost respect, and I could poitn out that of course only two pople have meanwhile played his dungeon, and as anyone with an engine or dungeon out recently knows the fact I did manage to was a fluke and the shortness of it (in a good way, it progressed and played logically with no wasted time) the only reason I could comment at all. And of course, I've already stated how helpful my english spoken comments might have been!

I do not think that this is an cause for concern, but the reaction to it might be - any general points have merit, but in Tonari's case this is certainly the thin end of the wedge where I would expect latitude in complaints, not for it to spark a debate on if we need to tighten up on non-enlgish speaking.

Anyway, I know you were just statng an opinion and gettign comments so hopefulyl I'm not comign across as attacking, just I feel sctrongly that as a community we shouldn't be askign for conformity, we would instead seek to be accomodating for as long as we can. We arent' that big, so we can't have worries about cliques etc that might form and split a community, which might cause bigger forums to insist on always using a common language all the time.

Oops, longer than I meant and badly typed to boot - be back after work to read everythign properly!

[Adamo]

Trantor wrote:

Furthermore, people not talking in English happens so rarely here that I don't think it actually deserves to be called a problem.

why is that so? because people, who don`t understand english well and are interested in DM related stuff just don`t write posts to the forum, (or a simple questions only), because it would cost them too much time to translate it (and understand other people`s posts). I`m sure there`s a lot of them!

@Gambit: that`s thrue, using this forum improved my english a bit.. at least I had a little contant with that language - which I almost never use in Poland.

[Adamo]

@Gambit: BTW, if I translate main information page (before entering to the forum, I mean: http://www.dungeon-master.com/
to polish, would you add the option to change the languages (by clicking on the little polish flag in the corner)? Would it be a lot of work to include this? That would help a people who knows polish but don`t know english well.

[Gambit37]

Beo, I hear what you're saying, but it's not really the point I'm making. Despite how my posts might sound, I'm not actually criticizing Tonari at all. I'm trying to get a point across about how ANYBODY changing the language in a thread is disrespectful to everyone else who a) may have already contributed to that thread and (b) could potentially help out but is limited because othey don't understand the language.

Of course, it's great that people can talk in their own language with others, but let's be realistic here. Those conversations should really be limited to things that DON'T need or require input from the whole audience.

@Adamo: That's a great idea. If you're prepared to do it, I could certainly include it. Not sure when I'd get around to it but It can definitely be done.

[Parallax]

I'm sorry but this is utter nonsense.

The forums are in english on the assumption that it is the most practical way of communicating. As it happens, Tonari's english is not as good as Sophia's japanese, so she opted to give him her comments on his custom dungeon in the language he understands best. To pervert that into some lack of consideration is just baffling.

Sure it would have been nice to have those comments translated in english underneath in case I ever play that custom, so I don't duplicate comments out of ignorance but otherwise, I think it's a nice gesture towards a non-native english speaker.

Coupled to the fact that there was no complaints 3 months ago when an entire thread was hijacked into german for much longer, in time as well as in number of posts (http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=26332) it makes me wonder how much of the complaining has to do with what was done and how much has to do with who did it.

[Gambit37]

I'm sorry but this is utter nonsense.

You're entitled to your opinion

The forums are in english on the assumption that it is the most practical way of communicating. As it happens, Tonari's english is not as good as Sophia's japanese, so she opted to give him her comments on his custom dungeon in the language he understands best. To pervert that into some lack of consideration is just baffling.

I have tempered my view since my initial post. You see how wonderful it is to talk these things out and get a different perspective? I have no problem people helping others out in their own language when it doesn't affect other people's enjoyment and understanding of the forum.

I think it's a nice gesture towards a non-native english speaker.

Absolutely. As I said, I have tempered my initial view somewhat and feel that if it was just Sophia and Tonari, no problem. But when other people are contributing and then get shut out because of a language change, it's disrespectful to them. If we are going to be accepting of everyone, then we have to think of everyone, right?

Coupled to the fact that there was no complaints 3 months ago when an entire thread was hijacked into german for much longer, in time as well as in number of posts

You'll notice that I didn't post in that thread. I wasn't aware of it. I don't read every post on the forum. If I'd been aware of it, I'd certainly have said something. I have done before.

[Trantor]

I just read the thread in question, and I have to say I really can't understand why you get upset about it Gambit. Ok, maybe Sophia could have given an English translation so everybody else knows what she is talking about, but I think it is a wonderful service of her to give Tonari feedback in his own language so he understands it properly. My hat is off to Sophia for that. She obviously didn't mean to exclude anyone, she was just helping Tonari. And once again, posts in other languages are so rare that I don't think they are a problem at all - especially not if they are obviously helpful.

By the way, translating the starting page into other languages is a very good idea Adamo. If there is interest, I could translate it into German.

EDIT: Just saw your new post Gambit that you wrote while I was typing. I think I mostly agree with your points there.

[Gambit37]

How about we agree that one-on-one chats in other languages are OK, but anything that has involved other people should stick to English? And If you want to talk to someone further in their own language from a thread that was started in English, do it via private message?

Is that a good compromise?

[Sophia]

It was a feedback post. I've posted in Japanese in the past to help Tonari out, and included an English translation. In this case, I didn't feel it was necessary because it was a custom dungeon feedback post-- what does what I wrote have to do with what anyone else might write, in this case?

I don't see what PMing it would solve. It'd go from being unreadable to most by virtue of being in a language most don't understand to being unreadable by everyone because it's private. The goal of not repeating things that have already been said is not accomplished. The goal of being understood by more people is not accomplished.

[Gambit37]

what does what I wrote have to do with what anyone else might write, in this case

It's you prerogative to not care if people can't understand what you're saying, but isn't it nicer if *everyone* can understand?

I don't see what PMing it would solve. It'd go from being unreadable to most by virtue of being in a language most don't understand to being unreadable by everyone because it's private. The goal of not repeating things that have already been said is not accomplished. The goal of being understood by more people is not accomplished.

I already said way back that I retracted my point about private messages. The most recent comment on private messages explicitly says "And If you want to talk to someone further in their own language..." ie, on things unrelated to what the thread might have been about.

[beowuuf]

Oww, just back from nice food and walk and now my brain hurts...so many words...

[Sophia]

My goal was to bring someone else into the forum discussion who may have had difficulty due to language barriers, not to exclude others.
I think that being understood by as any as possible is a good goal, though, but it's too inconvenient to have to post a word-for-word translation of every non-English post.
My suggestion would be to make the "policy" what has already been done in a few other non-English exchanges: at the conclusion of a short exchange, or at various points in an ongoing conversation, one of the participants who is also fluent in English will post a brief recap of what was said, so others who wish to contribute may also do so.

[Gambit37]

I think that being understood by as any as possible is a good goal, though, but it's too inconvenient to have to post a word-for-word translation of every non-English post.

Well, that kind of confirms what I said all along: stick to English!

My suggestion would be to make the "policy" what has already been done in a few other non-English exchanges: at the conclusion of a short exchange, or at various points in an ongoing conversation, one of the participants who is also fluent in English will post a brief recap of what was said, so others who wish to contribute may also do so.

That would work, but I'd still prefer that threads requiring and expecting input from the whole forum are conducted in English for the reasons I already outlined.

[beowuuf]

In general my stance, and I would hope the general policy, would have been that if you start the thread, you get to do what you like in terms of posting and replies, and everyone else should respect the thread.

People shouldn't be afraid to ask for translation or mod intervention if they feel their thread is getting cluttered, be it OT posts by mad english people or long conversations in a forgein language they can't understand.

And similarly, we shouldn't become a nannying forum. People have proven themselves mature enough to deal with the situation themselves - in discussions like this people have strong views yet no one has insulted my mother yet, for example.

As a community this small where we 'know' each other, we shouldn't have one overriding rule. Hopefully everyone knows me well enough that I dont' care about OTs in my post, so should feel free to chatter away about whatever in whatever way, while Gambit has made it clear he woulnd't welcome that without explaination.

If we all communicate rather than have blanket rules, then everyone gets a nice relaxed atmosphere and yet niggles can get taken care of by all parties in a responsible way.

Since doomguard's post got mentione,d I'd point him out as being a perfect example of someone, as far as I can see, doing no wrong - http://www.dungeon-master.com/forum/sea ... =doomguard

He started a post in englsih, though it is not a language he is comfortable in. The conversation turns to german, and that's fine - it's his post, he got what he wanted and he and a few of our regulars got to share their love of Dm in their native language. Cool. For every other thread he joins, including asking for help in SS, he sticks to english - even though he now knows a few german speakers are around, and even that sophia speaks german.

I would have a problem if our policy was to 'tut tut' at him, and the three regulars, for that one thread. If you look at the thread, you can see that I even carried on posting - it wasn't particularly explusionary, if anything I made a running joke in his thread, and it was good that trant explained the joke to doomguard, it being his thread and me bieng the one interrupting it with my post.

Anyway, that's all I have to say, and I've said it in too long a way but too tired to fix that. Oh, except one lastlittle thing!

I would also highlight Tonari's post as a perfct example of use of language rather than the cause of the debate - as I said before, he kept it in english except to discuss specific questions where sophia answered him in japanese - it would be up to him if he wished to share to find out if everyone agreed with the nibblik difficulty thing that was mentioned.

In this specific case of reviews btw, I would also note that what Sophia said to Tonari should have no bearing on what anyone else says. If Tonari got 10 seperate reviews saying 'you have too many nibblees and not enough whiiirms' he'd know these two facts were agreed. If everyone after sophia went 'oh, sophia mentioned the whiiiirm problem, i won't bother to comment ' Tonari would think that sophia was in the minority so kee pthe whiiiirm count as it was. , and worse if no one bothered to write at all then would think only sophia had played it too.

Anyway, as we were!

[Trantor]

Thanks Beo, that's a fantastic post, lots of good points in there! I think the policy of "let the thread starter have his way" is the best suggestion. Can we all agree on that?

[Sophia]

Well, that kind of confirms what I said all along: stick to English!

That's fine for the majority, but given that my whole point in posting in a non-English language was so that the maker of the custom dungeon about which I was commenting would be able to better understand my comments... it kind of loses the point in that case, doesn't it?

In general my stance, and I would hope the general policy, would have been that if you start the thread, you get to do what you like in terms of posting and replies, and everyone else should respect the thread.

I would like to see this policy. To me it makes perfect sense, and it works much better than trying to nanny the forum and just leading to more friction.

[Gambit37]

In general my stance, and I would hope the general policy, would have been that if you start the thread, you get to do what you like in terms of posting and replies, and everyone else should respect the thread.

Come on Beo, you're in danger of becoming too liberal and trying to appease everyone! I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this.

On my next new post I am going to write in a dead language a very serious question concerning the future of the forums. It will be worded in such a way that to receive no replies implies I can go ahead -- and delete the entire board.

Yes, that is nonsense, but if we allow people to write and respond in any manner they choose, we may as well not have any moderators, hell we might as well not even have the forum. I don't care if you all think I'm some kind of up-tight namby pamby conservative who insists on rules for their own sake. I'm definitely not that, but some of you might judge otherwise. That's your loss.

What I do insist on is that as a public forum open to everyone from across the world, it's only right and fair that everyone should be allowed to enjoy the forums equally. I do not see how it can be wrong to insist that we speak a common language and I'm rather disappointed to have no backup on this issue.

And similarly, we shouldn't become a nannying forum. People have proven themselves mature enough to deal with the situation themselves - in discussions like this people have strong views yet no one has insulted my mother yet, for example.

You're being a bit extreme. It's hardly nannying. This is one of the most relaxed forums I know of and want to keep it that way, but not at the expense of not being able to understand what is going on in my own backyard!

As a long term architect, administrator, moderator and contributor to this forum and the DM community as a whole, I'm rather disappointed not to received more understanding about the points I made. Yes, I agree my initial post was a bit harsh and I changed my mind about 2 points during the course of the conversation. I'm clearly open to compromise. It seems like most of the rest of you aren't.

Anyway, as we were!

Given my points above: hardly! So where does that leave us? Majority vote? If so, I will have to consider very hard if I really want to hang around here when my opinion means so little.

[Paul Stevens]

my opinion means so little.

I doubt that such is the case. I think we
are talking about apples and oranges here.

We all agree that we probably should not
tolerate someone writing in sanskrit day
after day. (It might be kiddie-porn!)

And we all agree that an occasional paragraph
in Japanese which is obviously intended
to help understanding is permissible.

I don't think there is as much disagreement
as the quantity of words here suggests.

[ian_scho]

As a long term architect, administrator, moderator and contributor to this forum and the DM community as a whole, I'm rather disappointed not to received more understanding about the points I made.

It's an interesting point. I don't recall many other moderators jumping in to stop Trolling or stopping topics from getting a wee bit too personal. Indeed, Gambit once pointed out to me that my post in a thread was off topic and...

Ah bugger, done it again.