[Custom dungeon] The Tower of Champions [RTC] [Adamski]

[RAF68]

Hey Adamski, will the game still be released tonight?

[Adamski]

Sorry, but I need another day to finish testing a couple of things. Today I played the whole game: 7h and 20' to complete only the main quest. I'm happy because the game didn't freeze, therefore it is OK. Tomorrow for the release.

[RAF68]

ok still one be able of patience

[Adamski]

The definitive version of my game is ready! Sorry again for the possible english mistakes, but I hope in your help to correct them, at least those can compromise the riddles or the meaning of the story. Thanks again to the betatesters.

[beowuuf]

Sorry I was too busy to get to far with it or give more feedback! Got as far as the graveyard and the wariror's guild!

[RAF68]

THANK YOU adamski for your Dungeon

[Gambit37]

I quickly downloaded and started up -- but I'm finding the mouse responsiveness to be very "smooshy" -- this usually happens when you have a lot of background mechanics going on. Is there a lot of stuff happening in the background as soon as you start the game?

[PaulH]

Being playing an hour, very impressed. Lots to explore, great new graphics, a decent story shaping up.

Hopefully will find some new characters soon as cannot carry everything!

[RAF68]

dungeon I should rather say games one is all simply WONDERFUL work colossal with all his new decorate wall and all but I really find damage which have has so much evil has find some water has drink and no magic no light

[Adamski]

I am realising the game is too difficult. No problem: I'll correct all the issues, but I can find them only with your feedback. You will able to finish the game with my clues, there isn't another way at the moment. It is obvious I haven't found any issue in my testing, instead for me the game is too easy. But I can't be a judge.
About the light, maybe my monitor is too bright

Spoiler

The weapon shop has the torches, but they are shown only when you finish the guild of mages.The initial riddle to enter into this guild would be illogical if you had a torch. The eye says "I can't see..."

Maybe it is a stupid thing. I'll remove it and put candles in the food shop and torches in the weapon shop without restrictions. Who thinks it's too annoying the lack of light and want the magic book and the ful rune at once, can ask me in pm and I'll tell how to get them.
There is a trigger in each tile to make the grass sound, and in the sewers more than one. Gambit, I imagine how much the game will be slow there. But I can't solve this, sorry.
There could be a food issue inside the tower, maybe it is too little

Spoiler

when you enter the door closes and you can go back to the food shop only by finding a way to exit to outside, but it is hard

. I wait for your opinion about and, according to it, this possible problem will be correct. But at the moment I don't know.

[money]

Hi Adamski, I think the games are better when they are more challenging. I agree that the light level is not great and could be improved - but I think many of the hints (certainly in the cell) take away a little from the challenge that was there during testing. It's more fun to try, try and try again - look at Conflux - it's full of riddles and difficult puzzels and people can always ask questions if they want more help or hit a dead end.

[Adamski]

I agree money, but every kind of player has different needs. I am creating the version 1.1 with more light, torches and no food problems inside the tower (actually I don't know if there are, but it's better not to risk). Late morning for the release. Playing with the 1.0 version is a harder challenge, you must decide which version...

[Gambit37]

There is a very big difference between challenging and frustrating.

I played a little more and found

Spoiler

the cross key which let me into Heironymus' House

. This didn't get me any further into the game though. I would like to continue with the game as it has a lot of interesting ideas, but the light problem is just too annoying for me.

There is a trigger in each tile to make the grass sound, and in the sewers more than one. Gambit, I imagine how much the game will be slow there. But I can't solve this, sorry.

You can solve this quite easily using a single item placed on PARTYS_TILE. This will solve movement sounds for the party. I don't think it adds much to the game to add this effect for items and other monsters, and performance should always be the main focus. If small features are causing performance issues and don't add much to the game, I would personally remove them.

[Adamski]

But I've used only one trigger for party-monsters-items... It would be a good feature allowing to change the step sound using an action in RTC editor. Without it I must put triggers to change the sound in different tiles or levels.
Ok, I've put a couple of torches in each guild, torches in weapon shop and candles in food shop. My question: are really necessary torches inside the guilds? Do you think that at least the guild of warrior can be solved without them? After this guild the

Spoiler

weapon shop opens and you will be able to buy some torches

. If so, I can remove them from the levels.

[beowuuf]

There is a very big difference between challenging and frustrating.

Actually, while there is certainly a huge difference in effect, I would argue there is very, very little difference in play between challenging and frustrating. That's where the problem lies.

[Adamski]

Updatated the download link: version 1.1

What I've changed:
- flasks, candles and torches in the shops
- virtually infinite food inside the tower
- removed some items to prevent freezes (also the wallset from all arena tiles)
- made some changes to make less frustrating the

Spoiler

"perfect symmetry" level

- add a hint to find the bro rune

[Gambit37]

There is a very big difference between challenging and frustrating.

Actually, while there is certainly a huge difference in effect.

Yep, that's what I meant -- the effect on the player (when challenging becomes frustrating) is profound.

[Adamski]

Another thing
Who want to keep playing with the 1.0 version: before entering into the tower collect as much food as possible; inside the food is little and is really hard coming back outdoors

Spoiler

through the sewers when the tower gate is closed

[beowuuf]

Sorry, perhaps the collary should have been stated - the difference between challenging and boring/easy is small too. It's a fine balance. Conflux had the same sharp learning curve, and I think everyone gave it enough of a chance to learn how to beat the challenges. I'm just worried that because we are slightly older with less free time, we're looking to dumb down some dungeons that can keep us going for quite a while if we otherwise like them.

Anyway, that's a little OT!

[Gambit37]

I agree with what you're saying, but this dungeon has THREE initial problems thrown at the player: No light, No water and no flask. Conflux is manageable as it doesn't do this, it ramps things up steadily and the initial main problem is finding a flask. This is also why I dislike Zed's dungeons -- they are really built for masochistic players and not average players, and I consider myself an average player.

I think it's too much to give three problems to solve all in one go, especially when those problems affect enjoyment of the rest of the game. It's no fun wandering around in the dark and not being able to work out what you're supposed to do, AS WELL as having no water and no way of healing a critical hit. That's a surefire way to put off most players in my opinion. There's clearly lots of cool stuff in Adamski's dungeon, but it's all wasted if I'm put off by the initial gameplay problems.

Anyway, I'm glad Adamski has released an update, but now I have no time to play it for a week or so!

[Lai]

i think its very hard for the designer to balance his own dungeon, cause he just know all the clues.
thats why beta-testing is very important; and its also importent not to take only DM experts to do this job.

i think adamski do a very admirable and great job to create this dungeon...i think it wastes very long time for him, and
it is also admirable that he react fast like this and give player like me another version.

i am one of the players who loves to have all the time i want to take a look at the dungeon, wasting my time without time limit in default of food/water/light.

[RAF68]

or link is to download new version with torch ...........

[Adamski]

Thanks Lai.

Version 1.1.1:

- a new faster way to get the vi rune, before quite complicated
- fixed a problem with the bro rune

I hate when, changing something, new problems are created

[Gambit37]

Thanks for the update Adamski

I'm sorry if I was too negative earlier, I forgot to also say that this is looking very impressive so far. You have some really good ideas in here and I was pretty scared running away from that Dragon. I kept panicking, which no other custom dungeon has done to me for a long time. Great stuff!

[Adamski]

Thanks Gambit.
I prefer a hard dungeon instead an easy one. The first part of my game (the guilds) has no so great ideas in my opinion and I tried to make it more interesting and difficult putting some restriction for the water and the magic. But maybe I was wrong. The lack of torches is due to

Spoiler

the riddle for the guild of the mages.

.

[RAF68]

it is good I follow arrive has take new version of games thanks a lot adamski

[dungeon.master]

I prefer a hard dungeon instead an easy one.

+1
and as I said on another topic, I prefer a good / real / hard / frustrating and released dungeon than repeated promises in the wind ....

Adamski,
I have great fun playing with your creation, there is a great background and the challenge is high.
I have just played a few hours, it's hard but addictive

Don't be afraid by the moaning, you spent a lot of a time with the dungeon and it's not the time to start changing a lot of mechanisms, because there is the risk to ruin all (in french : effet domino), just because there is some guys who are afraid in the dark

I just remember : there is a dungeon that will satisfy them : dungeon with lot of light and food

More seriously, I think that a dungeon is a personal creation, and it's impossible to adapt it to fit all player desires ...
I don't remenber Zyx changed his dungeon a lot when people said they have difficulties, but I still play it although I think the dungeon is VERY hard / VERY frustrating, and VERY addictive ...

Well, I go back to play ToC

[Adamski]

Many thanks dungeon.master. I think there are different genres of players: some prefer being totally free to explore and others playing hard challenges like a survival games. These aspects are difficult to harmonize. I tried to balance them ... When the players will familiarise with the game mechanics and with the map, they will feel free to explore every side.
Only a problem: with "infinite" food you can play, explore, try ecc.. without limits. In the version 1.0 there is not a mechanism to ensure infinite food. Which version are you playing?

[dungeon.master]

I'm playing with the original version but I'm not yet at this point, because I was stucked at the begining for almost an hour

[Lord_BoNes]

I've noticed that you've mentioned, on page 1, that you're having issues with the object limit...
You can give items a lifetime value (EG: 360 for a minute). Once the lifetime exipres on an object, it converts, even if it doesn't have a value (converts to NULL, which removes the object in question).

I have sometimes hit that limit myself, and it REALLY bugs me, so much, to the point where I've started writing my own clone of RTC