Conflux III : too difficult ?

[Zyx]

this one is hard to find; I changed the riddle to give a clue more:

*spoiler*
ONE TOOTH TO BITE.
HE IS THE FORESTS FOE.
ONE TOOTH TO FIGHT.
AS ALL DWARVES KNOW.


Oh, and glowing wine, Rain? This is not Fallout!

[PaulH]

I agree with Ian, it is very daunting in the 1st half hour, but once a few levels are gained (and you can cast light lol) things are much better. I have taken just leif, and am having a great time.

[beowuuf]

And remember, area like the pit bit with the rope aren't instant killer traps - you can get out : )

[PaulH]

One problem I am exp is fast stamina drain. But that probably reflects the way I play. Sleeping is quick to restore, and i have loads of food.

Overall I am enjoying this more than Conflux2. I am still a bit bewildered (again my style of play - don't take notes, don't map hehe) but the exploring and new graphics reminds me a lot of EoB2 which I love.

[Suule]

I still have the map codes I've gathered from Beta release... they serve as a big help for me... not to mention I still remember some of the solutions to the puzzles... maybe except the Time Machine.

[PaulH]

I'll resort to the maps when i become truly stuck, but so much to find at the moment.

[Trantor]

I think the maps are one of the greatest features in Conflux III. Extremely atmospheric, but not giving away too much - and not too easily found.

[beowuuf]

Thank gambit for those - they are very cool

Especially if you find the moria one!

[rain`]

Is there any way to put hell back on a leesh? I unleashed hell far too early in the game and Im just getting my face beat in again and again =[

[Zyx]

I unleashed hell

Im just getting my face beat in again and again =[

Now that's hell as I understand it.

Since you're the first to actually plays along with hell difficulty, PM me. I'd like to balance it more (frequence and hitpoints of the apparitions). But I needed a hardcore gamer first. I'll fix your savegame too.

[rain`]

Oaf, hell difficulty! I just saw a button and said "ooo click!", hahaha.

BTW the saved game isnt bugged, its just got that little quirk, just move the guys around and all is fixed.

[Zyx]

Indeed there was a bug making hell something like UberHell. It will be fixed for version c. Rain, send me a savegame so I can fix it. Or wait a few days to start from scratch with the new version.

Unleashed hell makes the game more difficult, but still playable and enjoyable. It makes it slightly harder in every aspect, and adds some unexpected punctual obstacles. You may find it rewarding by the end.
Unleashed Hell will beahve this ay in version c.

The button will be more explicit by the way. : )

[Trantor]

Exploring the storgae area then wine cellars, then upstairs areas before sewers/temple is the best i think...

I actually prefer going to the wine cellars only for the torches and the ZO liqueur first. Once I have them, I head straight to the sewers since you gain levels more quickly there. I also have more trouble with the rats than with the Screamer-trees and Antmen.

[beowuuf]

True, I just hate the gigglers and prefer to have some magic to back me up sometimes. And yes, it's a good idea to grab those torches

[Quellar 2]

I think the difficulty is perfect, although the Sewers in 3,5B5 are really a bit hard. I wasn't able to "roam" them before being at quite a high level already. The Spider level is by far the most difficult level (aside of ambush of course) but since it is so very stuffed with useful items, I suppose this should be that way. Although: 1 Mon Thunder should be sufficent for our 8-legged friends, which is not the case. For beginners there should be something like a FAQ or a "first steps" compendium. Things like
- "don't do what you like, but what you can"
- "if you find a perfect training area, be aware that easy gains raise to difficult"
- "don't reincarnate"
But then one of the funny things about Conflux is to start a game for the first time, land somewhere in the crypt, reload etc.

[Zed5Duke]

Am wonder if exist anybody who finish it without help.

[Zyx]

Surprisingly, quite a lot.

[Christopher]

For beginners there should be something like a FAQ or a "first steps" compendium. Things like
- "don't do what you like, but what you can"
- "if you find a perfect training area, be aware that easy gains raise to difficult"
- "don't reincarnate"

Also add:
- "Rags dropped from rats can be sewn together to make various articles of clothing or you can use Rags and a Stick to make a torch, or relight one that is burnt out"

I disagree about reincarnation though. I always reincarnate Conflux characters, even back in the day when I was a beginner.

[Quellar 2]

well, I did not know that... but wouldn't that be to much of a spoiler? I prefered to add only things to the beginners guide, which explain vaguely, what there could be. So to take your example with the rags: "you may use things to create new things". Ok, perhaps a bit more poetic than that.

about reincarnation: isn't the max level linked to the start level of your character, so a char who starts with craftsman will go higher before hitting the cap*, than a neophyte or a newborn? (*

Spoiler

as long as the guild master isn't revealed

.)

[T0Mi]

For beginners there should be something like a FAQ or a "first steps" compendium.

There is a Beginners FAQ for Conflux on the wiki, written by some bigmouth promising much, but not keeping any of those promises (yes, me). It doesn't include the features added in 3.5, though. So if you wish to add tips on those to the FAQ, go right ahead.
http://dmwiki.atomas.com/wiki/Conflux

[Quellar 2]

wasn't aware of that, that's fantastic! - that was exactly what I had in mind - just better.
The only thing I am not sure about (concerning 3.5) is using the stair that leads directly to the sewers and doing training there. I did. And I had many many many antman in the Sewers. Not sure if the antman population and the training really is connected. But who knows? but anyway that's a great work you did for newcomers. The information in the FAQ seems to me exactly the thing one wants to know about when starting Conflux for the first time (or after some time).

[Troggy]

First of all, I am using 3.5B4.

I would say that the game is well balanced, but the real turning point where you can do a lot more is when you unlock lightning bolt, since it has the ability to kill huge amounts of enemies at once. Perhaps the lightning bolt is a bit too powerful, but I like it that way, so that it is more powerful for me too. I have a party that has cleared huge amounts of the game, actually reached the bottom of the dungeon and gotten over 150 points, and those vexkirks can still nuke my party down to about 1/3rd health with one bolt. More if I am against a wall, because then it deals its damage 3 or 4 times. Are the bolts affected by anti-fire or anti-magic at all? For me Lor has over 130 anti-magic and over 100 anti-fire, and he still takes ~400 damage from a lightning bolt blast. The only methods to block the bolts that I have found are to use Nabi and the Shield of Lyte, to have a 1-person party wearing the Helm of Negation, or to simply have tons of hp (my solution).

The sewers are a bit annoying, but not really hard. Once I got lightning bolt, I was able to punch huge holes through the masses of leeches. Wasn't the rate of spawn on the leeches supposed to go down once you kill the unique enemy there? It appears to simply stay the same. The spiders are actually quite easy, they just seem to resist magic quite a bit. I can regularly 1-shot them with the Caliburn or the Leviathan, but they usually get off an attack. Their real lethality is their high attack damage, their webbing and their numbers.

Oh, and Quellar, I definitely don't find the sewers the hardest area. Perhaps it is the hardest area that you can easily stumble into with low-level characters, but some areas are WAY harder. For example, failing the trial, and there the lightning bolts are the things that kill you so fast, and not the enemies. I was actually able to get through there with just 1 person wearing the Darc armor, but I took about 900 damage.

Also, I always reincarnate, and I would even if the levels just vanished. That way, I can regain all the benefits from gaining the levels.

[Quellar 2]

Killing the unique enemy stops the Leeches? that's feasible, in 3.5B5 i think I haven't seen many Leeches around since I killed it.

True, with a thunder bolt the Sewers are easy, but without it... I had a hard time there at the beginning. It isn't the hardest part, that's for sure (I'm far away from The Trial). Spiders are really though - my expertish-party (around 300HP) can't "clear" that level at the moment.

A very small step-to-step review, regarding difficulty in the beginning.
I'll put in spoilers so that people, who want to find out for themselves, are not constrained to read it.

Spoiler

1. the rats and the trees
One blow kills, poison is deadly - for a neophyte this makes it a bit difficult. But since 3.5B5 makes gaining levels easier until apprentice (or something like that) it's not a problem (i.e. it's balanced). As soon as you can kill them, you start roaming level 1 and get many nice items.

2. The storage rooms
The monsters here are too strong to fight directly, but with some DM-tactics (hit an run etc.) it's doable.

3. Temple
It has many items which would be useful in the beginning. But the priests there kill an untrained Gothmog (with fire shield) quite easily. I'd suppose to go there right away after level 0+1 involves quite a bit of reloading. It's maybe best (?) to go there, grab some things and scrolls and return later for the remaining parts.

4. The Sewers
The Antmen are not beatable with weaponry and also fireballs have a hard time there. Look for something else. Until now most people will have opened 0-2 doors in each guild (depending on the chosen characters). This makes it quite impossible to decrease the numbers of antman because of lack of mana. Lightning Bolt would solve that problem, but to achieve it is a bit hard at this point, isnt it? I wasn't able to "clear" the Sewers until much later in the game (after level 4 and 5 (the latter only with much running ). What makes the Sewers hard (in my opinion), was that I couldn't run away. I had to stay there and fight until the fight was over. In level 4 I had slow monsters and pits therefore I could flee, In level 5 there were grate-doors and secret places to hide and heal.

Instead of trying to solve Temple and Sewers I went deeper first. I don't know if that's the usual route, but for me it was less stressful. With the Elevator and the Canteen and an empty level 4 I had a second "base". From there I tried to venture into the Spider level, which wasn't very successful. So eventually I went to the Sewers. At that time I had better spells (fireball) which made it possible (kind of). For the next time I suppose I take the same way but with I would go to the temple before the Sewers. A Mage Cadeus found even deeper than spider level helped of course.

ok sorry if this wasn't very helpful at all, but I really like to talk about Conflux, I hope you are not too bored concerning the topic: I think Conflux III is really harder than Conflux II because Sewers are just out of reach without some profound offensive capabilities. The spider level is extreme. The good thing about these two levels in consequence of their difficulty seems to me, that one starts to find other solutions first. Which in turn means that one goes deeper with an inferior party to what one had had if Temple and Sewers were easier.

ok I stop it now

[Adamo]

Quellar 2:

Killing the unique enemy stops the Leeches? that's feasible, in 3.5B5 i think I haven't seen many Leeches around since I killed it.

You can check the number of dead monsters of each type by using statistic table in "misc" option. As far as I remember I killed ~200 leeches once

[Christopher]

@ Quellar: The Antmen (Trollins) have the same weakness as they did in the other DM games and behave relatively the same way, i.e. if you kill one from a group of four, the other three have a good chance of retreating.

The only unique I found in the sewers was the Mudman and killed it before I got to the Leeches. I will agree that the Sewers has less Leeches in 3.5B5.

[Quellar 2]

Thanks! I did not realize that they would retreat, the next time i start anew, I'll try to use that information to my advantage.
I suppose

Spoiler

acid

is the answer (to the trollins ) but since there were really a lot, my beginner party wasn't able to do much harm back then.
I thought there were plenty of Leeches, but they don't respawn too fast. I did not know that the unique monster was the generato of them but when I read about that here I thought, that it could be that after destroying it, there were less Leeches. Which seems to be intended.
...or I'm just wrong

[Troggy]

I usually have to kill huge lines of the leeches in B4, but I usually rush to the Plasma area in the temple through the secret stairway in the Sewers, and down on that same set to kill the golem and the scorpion, and then grab the flask from the Wisdom area.

However, it shouldn't surprise any of you that I said that it was well balanced, but then I am going to go for a hell-unleashed 4-master party in B5 soon. Let's see if THAT is balanced. The only more suicidal thing I can think of would be to go with the Mal guild and hell unleashed.

[Christopher]

@ Quellar 2: Not

Spoiler

Acid, Ya Ven

, but

Spoiler

Poison, Zo Ven

. There is a noticeable difference. Keep in mind they don't always retreat just because one in their group is killed, but it does happen a lot.

@ Troggy: Once I beat the game with my Mal guild, their own ending that is, I was also thinking about hell unleashed for them in a new game.

[Quellar 2]

That's good to know. Even though I'd think the main problem is the amount of resources

Spoiler

mana

which is needed to fight them without sleeping too much. Especially without a flask. I'm not sure about them being generated anew

Spoiler

by using stairs from lvl 2

but if that's true, it would be an explanation why there were so many. But anyway, since this thread wanted to discuss the difficulty of Conflux 3.5 compared with 3.0, and not the difficulty of trollins, I hope I did not tantalize you too much with that topic.