Are custom dungeons for players, or the creators?

[Gambit37]

Do we dungeon designers build dungeons for other players to enjoy, or simply to demonstrate our skills?

For a while now I've been wondering if perhaps we're less interested in making fun games, and more interested in just showing off how clever we are at building complex mechanics or unique features. These comments made it clear for me:

However the editor potential is not completely utilized, for instance in making elaborate mechanics.

As originality i understand inventions, something which nobody never used before, or its very rare, and list of them is very long here:

My view is that a playable, fun and interesting game should be the focus for any dungeon designer. I don't think there's any value in just showing off your complex mechanics or the "unique" ideas you put in your game. It might be fun for you as a designer to build something that was a challenge for you, but most players don't really care what's going on "under the hood." Shouldn't we focus more on gameplay, and less on trying to come up with clever mechanics?

Discuss

(I should point out that I'm not criticising Adamski or Zed5Duke, or anyone else. I'm genuinely interested in the reasons why people build custom dungeons.)

[linflas]

I feel being one of the "incriminated" people .Here's what i noticed for several months now :
- less dungeons are played and we're becoming very critical of new productions.
- a "classic" DM dungeon grey-walls and DM2 caverns looks boring to DM-used people.
- designers put teasers of their production but pretty much nothing is released...
- Zed5Duke is too productive and that annoys me, Adamski is too clever and that annoys me, how do they find time to make such productions ?

I'd like as many as possible people to play my dungeon, that means not only hardcore DM players but also (maybe) outside the community. I think about making a tutorial for non-DM players in FoD, if I ever release it.

My priorities as a designer : fancy visuals, nice story, easy progress. I'm a crap at puzzles and most of my new monsters are cloned trolins or couatls !

[Adamski]

First I want to answer last question. I build custom dungeons because It's funny, I love creativity and I like people have fun like I had fun playing DM and CSB many years ago.

Both games are a classic... however if I played them again or played a custom dungeon without any innovation compared with DM and RTC, I wouldn't enjoy so much. In my opinion innovation is an important element if you want to achieve old players interest. A designer can be innovative making new graphics, writing a story different from the others, inventing new challenges (different puzzles or fights) or new elements (objects, spells, actions). I think that the RTC editor offers many way to innovate and its advanced features could be a huge help in making puzzles and challenging fights. This is the reason I try to create new mechanics, in this way you can multiply your creativity and create something new. Obviously you can innovate but fail in other aspects, like atmosphere, gameplay etc... so the innovation is not the only priority, or rather, is not the most important aspect. A game with a good gameplay but non (really) innovative can be played and some player can enjoy (last Zed's dungeon e.g.). A game with good mechanics but a bad gameplay is a failure.

In conclusion: as player I am not interested in playing non innovative games, as designer I want to explore new way to make dungeons, otherwise I would find boring create something. I really enjoy in doing that, making upside-down was more enjoying and challenging that ToC.

And another important observation: building a dungeon is not a competition! If I thought that I wouldn't give any suggestion or write any review.

[beowuuf]

Why can't it be a healthy mix of all those, Gambit Like anything creative though, surely unless you wnat tomake something for mass consumption, you make something you enjoy, and hope some people think and enjoy things as you do. You can curb some of your instincts, but this is purely creative with no monetary compensation, so really the vision is the designers.

We're such a small community that it is noticeable if a dungeon's style is not 'maintream', but that doens't mean any designer needs to bend to the community. Perhaps there are other people out there that would liek that style, that aren't aware of DM or haven't come back to it, after all.

[Sophia]

Gambit, I've noticed this too. I noticed long ago that I myself was getting much more interested in the technological aspects of it. So it's probably good I moved to producing a game engine instead of dungeons.

[Soaponarope]

Good topic.

I think it's a mix of both building for others and our own enjoyment. If your not fully enjoying working on your dungeon, it's not worth it because you know it's just a fun project, not something your going to sell. However you still want people to play and enjoy it.

For some making clever mechanics is part of the fun of designing the dungeon and making a pure hack and slash dungeon is boring to work on, though for those that don't enjoy making complex puzzles they should not feel they need to just because others did. I don't think anyone should feel they have something to prove, they should make the dungeon they want to make, but listen to player feedback and make sure the game is still fun to play.

- less dungeons are played and we're becoming very critical of new productions.
- a "classic" DM dungeon grey-walls and DM2 caverns looks boring to DM-used people.
- designers put teasers of their production but pretty much nothing is released...

I do think there has become a sort of unspoken requirements for making dungeons lately. Making a dungeon like the original game is boring to people now. It seems players aren't interested unless the dungeon has "unique" ideas or all new graphics, and I think the reason designers are trying to "sell" their game is because they are feeling this.

[beowuuf]

Remember that there is a repository of dungeons playable through CSBwin that have very DM-like structure. No one can be blamed for wanting to make a simple dungeon, but as a community many of the members have played subtle varients and the original game to death New stuff is cool

Then again, I beleive RAF is one who made a very DM-like dungeon that was still fun.

[lbk]

I work on my custom dungeon for myself. I don't plan on releasing it when it is finished, I just enjoy trying to do things and actually getting those things done.

I do however agree that dungeons should have new things in them. The first time I played any of the Dungeon Master games, the puzzles were new. Now I know how they all work and that makes the game not as much fun. Now if I play a custom dungeon and they use a puzzle/mechanic from a previous DM game to do something (Like open a door) it is not challenging and they probably should have just used a key (as opposed to creating the mechanic)

My view is that a playable, fun and interesting game should be the focus for any dungeon designer. I don't think there's any value in just showing off your complex mechanics or the "unique" ideas you put in your game. It might be fun for you as a designer to build something that was a challenge for you, but most players don't really care what's going on "under the hood."

I don't really agree with this statement. I feel that the first sentence is accomplished by using "unique" ideas that are put into the game. I also think that the people who play the dungeons care what is going on "under the hood". I would think that this is a pretty small forum, so the games that are made see a very limited audience. I think most people playing these dungeons have tried to make their own dungeon, or made their own dungeon, at some point. Playing Adamski's dungeon, when I got to the wax museum, I was very impressed. I wondered how he could do this with monsters and still wonder (But I think it is done with ranged monster attacks and global swaps) The same thing when I was playing Soaponarope's dungeon, when I fought a death knight that turned invisible. These both involve things going on "under the hood" and they make the game more interesting because it throws me as a player off guard. I have fought a death knight, I know what they do, but these don't do that.

I would say that different things work for different players. I don't use sound when I play, this means that I could miss a lot of pressure pads the first time through, but it also means that if you spent a month coming up with the perfect sound-track for your game; I won't hear it. To me, the sounds aren't an important part of the game, but I am sure to many designers and players they are.

[Gambit37]

I guess you all know where I fit on this scale, by virtue of the fact I tinkered with RTC for the best part of 10 years and didn't release a single dungeon!

I love the process of creativity, but I've found that I seem to enjoy the process more than having a finished product. It's a bit weird to be honest. Although that does become massively frustrating after a while when you realise how many unfinished projects you have. 1 2 to name but 2.

ed5Duke is too productive and that annoys me, Adamski is too clever and that annoys me, how do they find time to make such productions ?

Yes, I feel the same Where do they get the time? (Actually, it's not a question of time, it's a question of discipline, of which I have none!) And we mustn't forget Zyx, whose brain clearly resides in a planet sized receptacle somewhere between universes.

My priorities as a designer : fancy visuals, nice story, easy progress. I'm a crap at puzzles...

I'm sort of the same, although I want to also create good, memorable puzzles

I agree with Adamski that a lot of the fun is just trying things out, seeing what works, and seeing where the experimentation takes you. My problem is that I start on one idea, and then get distracted with offshoot ideas, and never go back and finish the original thing.

@LBK I'm not sure I made myself clear. I'm all for interesting mechanics being used to make a dungeon unique; I agree that's important to getting people to play new dungeons. My point was that there's no virtue in making a fuss over the new mechanic you created or clever idea you implemented, because the mechanic itself isn't interesting: it's what it does to the gameplay that's important.

@LBK: The "under the hood" stuff you mentioned in your two examples about the Wax museum and the invisible Deth Knight, are in fact not really important. What you remember is how it affected your game, and challenged your expectations. That's a *gameplay* issue, not a engineering issue, I think perhaps you're not being clear enough about the distinction?

We're a small community and most of us understand what the engines are capable of and how they work. Perhaps it's a different mindset for the custom games people are creating versus a new modern game you've just bought. You don't go and buy Half Life 5 and think "Oh, that mechnic there is clever I wonder how they did that", you instead get absorbed by the gameplay, the story, the atmosphere, etc. Isn't that what's more important?

Or perhaps LBK has a point and part of the fun of actually building something clever is for the *exact reason* of making someone ask *Wow, how did they do that?"

I dunno really; it's definitely an interesting discussion.

[Ameena]

I think I'm a bit like Gambit - I like creating things. But I'm no good at making dungeons - I started making a few and either gave it up or buggered it up each time 'cause I either couldn't figure out how to make something do what I wanted or did something wrong which broke the file and messed it up . After a while I decided I was bored with trying to make dungeons, and besides I'd never be arsed to make a whole new graphics set and since most people are probably bored with the traditional grey walls that'd probably put me off trying to build a dungeon made entirely out of them .
Personally I prefer just coming up with the ideas - I could think up a story behind why a dungeon exists, or come up with ideas for puzzles within a dungeon, or a storyline for your journey through the dungeon and quests that need to be done, all that kind of thing. I'm just no good at actually making any of it . Oh and since making dungeons takes so long I get bored as well and end up deciding I can't be arsed . That's probably why my only real contributions to the DM community are a few written works - the backstories for a couple of people's dungeons and the Oracle hints for Conflux.

[Kesa]

I havent been here long enough to say too much, but as a designer myself I have to say I already been told about things that are over used and undesirable.

Most dungeons I play are DM based graphics which got old by dungeon 2 which sometimes can not be help, but maybe we should be helping more in that field of work. Like offering more graphics with visuals so new and old can easily add them to their dungeons without going through hundreds of DM2 or Hexen rips. Most those rips have to be configured to work with rtc, dsb, and other editors so the least we can try to do is compile some efforts into providing these graphics converted to match editors sizes.

^.^ Which I gonna try to help do.

[Gambit37]

The problem with sharing custom graphics is that a designer doesn't want to release them to the community before they have used them in their own dungeon. That's perfectly natural and reasonable, but it does mean a lot of good work may take years to appear as a shareable resource.

[Kesa]

hmm you have a point, I didnt think about that till you mentioned it...

Ah phooy...

There has to be something?

[lbk]

@LBK: The "under the hood" stuff you mentioned in your two examples about the Wax museum and the invisible Deth Knight, are in fact not really important. What you remember is how it affected your game, and challenged your expectations. That's a *gameplay* issue, not a engineering issue, I think perhaps you're not being clear enough about the distinction?

You are right that it is a gameplay thing for me, but since I have been tinkering with my own custom dungeon, I appreciate the work that the designer did "under the hood". I guess that was what I was trying to say.

I use some custom graphics, but I don't go way over the top. I am not a graphic designer, so most of my modifications are just changing colors and simple stuff like turning an axe into a hatchet. Some people almost demand new graphics/wall sets, or they won't play the dungeon. I play the game not for the cool sceneries, but for the gameplay. Don't get me wrong, I love to see new graphics and new wall sets, but for me it is not a make or break deal. If they game is engaging, then I don't think having "outdated" graphics should take away from it.

[Adamski]

linflas wrote:
ed5Duke is too productive and that annoys me, Adamski is too clever and that annoys me, how do they find time to make such productions ?

Where do I find what time? I usually dedicate very few time to building a dungeon, it isn't my job. Except a couple of hours to fix U-D, I haven't worked on a dungeon since last December.
Linflas, I hope that when you will release Forest of Doom somebody doesn't say: "the atmosphere is too good, that annoys me". Sometimes I think if the little time I spend working on a dungeon is worth. After all I could build my dungeon using the random generator in RTC, this editor is great also for that

[Lord_BoNes]

As for what's going on "under the hood", I'd have to say that I, as a dungeon designer, sort of "see through" things to see how they work... take "Upside Down" for instance, I HAD to figure out how it was done, I couldn't help myself
This same sort of thing happens whenever I play a new dungeon. I see how it works behind the scenes, just by playing it, and seeing what effects it has on gameplay. Then I figure out how I would do it.

I must agree with the original post though... the forums seem to be evolving into "we want good looking stuff" compared to "we want a dungeon that plays well". I fully agree that looks are far from everything. As a community, we might need to take a step back and look at how we're doing things. Sure, clever mechanics are wonderful (and this is ME saying this) but, gameplay is all too important, as is a lack of repetition.
I feel that the major problem we have is with things getting boring. We need to focus on creating fun, replayable dungeons. My dungeon, for example, actually creates most of the items (the ones that are on the floor of the dungeon, or carried by monsters) at random, on dungeon startup... this made my dungeon SOOO much more replayable. Perhaps other people might need to figure out "smart ways" to make their dungeons more replayable, and a whole lot less boring and repetitive.

And, there's my 2 cents worth... hehehe

[Des]

I found playing around with CSBuild and RTCEditor to be nerdy fun and very addictive. If after releasing your creation, no-one likes it much, at least you've enjoyed making it. If however, it is well-received you can bathe in the kudos

I used to play AD&D (*cough* version 1) in the 1980s and like most I enjoyed being DM as well being a character. Custom dungeon creation is not wildly different - releasing a custom is just your go at being DM.

I don't think customs have to have whizzy visuals to be a hit. For example I really enjoyed Nightkin that was mostly standard graphics. On the other hand, where designers have done some nice graphics - enjoy

[RAF68]

I prefer dungeon style dungeon master 1

[Zed5Duke]

Custom dungeons are for fans of some game. Already am beyond DM, and probably spend much more on M&M scene (am in team of Might and Magic 10 mod project) but RTC is great editor and my last dungeon is pure experimental, to try make M&M style game in DM engine.

[ian_scho]

Good luck with the Might&Magic project, Zed. Keep us informed of any major project milestones completed or when you actually finish it!

Back on topic... It depends! Just don't lose sight of the end player is my only observation.

[cowsmanaut]

I think that as part of a community, the things we create here are for that community, and because of their advanced skills (most of you.. but not me because I barely play) they require dungeons that have a unique approach to a puzzle. Something different than we're used to, and in order to get that, sometimes you need to get very clever with the engine mechanics. Even for story elements you have to do things that weren't meant to happen within the game engine, like the falling rocks in conflux. If Zyx didn't get "clever" with the mechanics.. that story element wouldn't have happened and as a story element it had a certain impact.. but as a player of the original DM it had an additional impact of "wow, how did he do that".. but both are an enjoyment of his creation, and let's not mistake that the creation was pretty much intended for those who had played DM before.

So, I wouldn't say that being focused on clever mechanics is a negative thing. Nor that it's bad to appreciate a dungeon for their mechanics as well We're all nerds here.. so nerd it up!

[Chaos-Shaman]

it's moving to see others looking for new ways to create dungeons. using the old graphics is certainly hard to get anyones attention. even to show someone else that has never heard of it will laugh at it, considering what's available today. what is difficult is the lack of cohesion of new ideas. the forums lost it when GG left, a whole so damn big, and feelings are not quite right for cooperative developement. if it is true that we DMs love it so, why is there such resistance. so many approaches, yet we're huddled in groups of geostationary satelite position. bet we've all felt the same way at one point or another, so it's a shame to see creation hit this pillar road block. if we all take a hudge sledge hammer and smash it down, and clear the way, it's possible to build something new, with fantastic puzzles and sound. it's disheartening to see all this potential just being sidelined because of old bickering. if one askes for help, no matter how stupid the question, it should be provided. unfortuneately that is not how it works. learned through time not to underestimate anyones abilities, so that person that is new, lacks any experience does not mean they have no value, or you're better than they, because they may be a master, and could verywell be the creative one once shown the path. most of us would be happy to help. my biggest example of this is the COMPILE in RTC. If you're not a programmer, you'll be puzzled trying to compile, one thing that was left out in the intructions is that is has to be in CAPS, we don't all know this at first. the feeling of helplessness, i know that feeling, been there. the learning curve is tremendous if we need to learn all that is required to construct a decent dungeon. i ask, is there anyone that can replace GG? speak for RTC because we are not all programmers and need his engine to build. i know the answer is no one can only hope.

[Gambit37]

You have this so wrong it really does beggar belief -- are you on the same forums as the rest of us?

These forums are a vast ocean of help, assistance, tips and tricks, insights, discussion, help, and more help. On top of that we have the Wiki that has tons of stuff in there and links to other sites with even more help.

I also don't know where you get the idea that people's creativity is being "sidelined because of old bickering." That's absolute nonsense. Sure, we've had our ups and downs but there's currently no negative aspect to dungeon creation as far as I can see, quite the opposite. There have been hundreds of posts by people helping out new and old users. I'm utterly perplexed by your statements.

George leaving hasn't left "a hole so damn big" either. It's frustrating for those of us that were building things with RTC that it's no longer being updated, but we've either worked around the bugs or switched to other engines. People come and go, c'est la vie, we deal with it.

As for people doing their own projects and being "geostationary satelite" -- that's entirely natural: the creative process is a personal thing and most people want to build their dungeons their way. There's really nothing you can do about that, and why would you want to anyway? A group project is only going to work if everyone buys into the same concept, the same ideals, and can devote the same amount of time as each other. We're all older, with real lives away from the computer, and for most of us, custom dungeon building is a personal hobby that we do for fun when we have some spare time. And thank goodness for that!

[Chaos-Shaman]

yes gambit, i'm here in the same place great answer. the forums rock! the bickering is how we all can't compare each others work as Linflas stated above of becoming very critical with each others work that is annoying. GG left a whole hole, straight through. getting older feel the aches, and wonder if without working with others if i'd still be alive to finish a project since there is so much to know and do. oh to be 20 again. it's more than just a hobby to me, it is a fantastic way to learn. it's fun to just play around with something that is so enjoyed. forgive my frustratingly perplexing drama, i mean no harm and there is nothing wrong with being hopeful for the DM community. maybe my hopes were read, and considered, wouldn't that be nice.
maybe that's why what was said was said nothing wrong with hope.

[Zed5Duke]

In conclusion: as player I am not interested in playing non innovative games, as designer I want to explore new way to make dungeons, otherwise I would find boring create something. I really enjoy in doing that, making upside-down was more enjoying and challenging that ToC.

I think its possible to reach edge, and every step forward is in fact backward. When game is easy then it is poor so making it harder work as plus, but there is limit of player patience beyond he become to feel annoying (when its impossible hard) The same about everything other parts like too much puzzles, or originality which may lead to lack of understanding. After that players will go back, instead of search progression, want something simple. Then when game is too hard is poor so making it easier work as plus.

So when review say Fights=9 to some players it dont mean +9 but -9 (if he hate too much fights) The same about everything else Puzzles=9 mean to one players good adventure stuff +9 but for these who want quick action exploring game it is -9 And this is more complex, because players have different reasons, motivations.

So it can be player who like exactly this:
originality=1 (something very classic)
fights=7 (lot of fights but not too much)
size=6 (because he dont have time to spend many hours on it)
puzzle=2 (dont need to be very logic, just want some jokes in content)

Or player like this:
origniality=10 (because everything around is so boring and need strong change)
fights=1 (too much killing in games)
size=1 (dont like to be lost in labirynth)
puzzle=8 (much more prefer adventures than combat games)

That stereotype where everything must be on 10, as only one true good way to gamming, is wrong. In fact it is only for few hardcore nuts. Every custom dungeon here is perfect to some player, it depend on what day he got.

[Zyx]

Interesting views, Zed, but how would you help would-be players finding their match without some sort of categorisation, with marks and comments?

[Chaos-Shaman]

guess a 5 is the best of both worlds right now it seems to appear only those who know the game are playing it. it would be real nice to attract others to the game and forums. so nice graphics and easy gameplay could be the right direction. puzzles are great for avid players, not so for new players. it's very important to attract players outside the forums. personally, at first just creating a RTC dungeon for the guy who spent 10 years already on a so called dead engine is just respectable/honourable to his request, considering he was thinking of everyone, not just programmers, to be able to create a dungeon. this is being very THOUGHT FUL. yes, that's a different kind of ful bomb. right now it's Batman running around with a lit bomb

[linflas]

it's very important to attract players outside the forums.

Sure... but not possible with CSBwin or RTC, or DSB at its current state. Those engines are for retro-gaming lovers, they play original DM(s), try Conflux or a few custom dungeons and leave. Their nostalgia feeling has been satisfied.

Most of my friends (which are not DM players of course but know Fighting Fantasy gamebooks) cannot understand why i'm using RTC engine for my project. When I talk about "Forest of Doom", they don't understand why I take so much time on making graphics for such an old engine. This is certainly beautiful but they play WOW, Diablo.. For them, a good retro-RPG customizable engine is Neverwinter Nights !

If you want to attract people to our "DM good old way of playing", you need something fancy or with fast and easy access.
For fancy, we already have in-dev 3D clones that could serve the purpose. But it's off-topic.
For easy access, a mobile/handheld or web/HTML5 version of our engines could fit perfectly. I'm pretty sure that people would like playing with our retro-engines on their phone or web browser. And we could provide custom dungeons... to them.

[Chaos-Shaman]

that is most likely the case with hand held devices being the choice of the younger generation. an app to the devices

[Gambit37]

I totally agree with Linflas.